151 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Lostdragon, on 16 June 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Maybe this is it, but this explanation lacks truthiness. I very rarely get caught by arty strike, it typically only happens when I am legged and a smart player uses it to finish me off. Even if the cockpit hitbox is disadvantageously placed it seems that because of its size the odds of it getting hit as often as it does in my experience would be really low.

I wish I could be more accurate or helpful, but consider where the cockpit is located.

A Catapult, which has an pretty easy to hit cockpit (relative to other cockpit hitboxes) is more likely to be affected by this.

Same goes for the Jenner.

Although it is all still random, you would have to directly compare the size of the cockpit hitboxes on all the mechs. While I personally don't recall the last cockpit headshot while running Shadowhawk, I get a lot more of it on the Jenner (well, I run it a lot).

Heck, I've seen an Atlas get killed by arty... and the cockpit hitbox is its left eye... which isn't really that big.

So, I guess the best way of looking at it is just using it early+often and see how effective it is. Of course... you'd have to use it well and effectively first....

[p4r4g0n]

Much much better DevLog if a little light on content but if you're going to be putting this out at shorter intervals, that's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Good to see progress on various fronts, keep up the good work PGI.

[Gallowglas]

Nightmare1, on 16 June 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

As for stupidity, it is very much an issue. Yes, I can put strikes behind someone's legs where they don't see it (and have had that happen to me, in turn), but if I can do that, then it's because they're not moving enough. I've also seen many cases where eight out of twelve Mechs will huddle in a hole and get hit twice by strikes. That's stupidity and it should be painful.

So it's stupidity to not hug cover to keep out of the LRM rain, but also stupidity that you're not somehow moving while you're hugging that cover even if you're the only mech behind said cover and the enemy lights are dropping arty like it's candy on Halloween. Gotcha. Maybe it's like Schrodinger's mechwarrior where until someone sees what you're doing, you're both stupid and not stupid at the same time.

Now all I need is to figure a way for my mech to wear a building like a hula skirt.

Edited by Gallowglas, 16 June 2014 - 07:26 PM.

[Lupin]

Small point: Developer Vlogs in :

• ANNOUNCEMENTS

?

[Nightmare1]

Gallowglas, on 16 June 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

So it's stupidity to not hug cover to keep out of the LRM rain, but also stupidity that you're not somehow moving while you're hugging that cover even if you're the only mech behind said cover and the enemy lights are dropping arty like it's candy on Halloween. Gotcha. Maybe it's like Schrodinger's mechwarrior where until someone sees what you're doing, you're both stupid and not stupid at the same time.

Now all I need is to figure a way for my mech to wear a building like a hula skirt.

Usually, you can still move while in cover. If you ran out to one of the small rock islands on Forest Colony, and found yourself stuck behind the little pillar of rock, then that is kind of stupid. By and large, there's enough cover on the maps for your to avoid LRMs and still have room to move around. Even if you don't have a lot of room to maneuver, like if you're hiding behind a butte on Canyon Networks, you still have room to rock back and forth and see if a strike has been planted (and on Networks, you can always dive off the ridge into a gully if needed!).

Long story short, if you worked yourself into a tiny hole where you don't have room to move, then you are asking for a strike anyways. I can only think of a couple times where I was sloppy enough to use inadequate cover. Rock out, fire, rock back. Strike is normally placed where you rocked out, so just keep backpedaling until you're out of range. Be smart about where the strike is coming from, and move away at angles so that you don't put yourself in line with an air strike. Watch for flankers who may try to place a strike on you from behind. Be willing to eat a few LRMs to obtain better cover or just to change positions to keep from giving someone time to set up a strike.

It's really simple and easy to avoid strikes. I rarely get hit, even in my slow BattleMasters.

[LiGhtningFF13]

CyclonerM, on 16 June 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

I suppose "for true MechWarriors" meant more or less what you are saying.

A Steiner saying this warms my heart.

Yeah but it's a true fact, sorry!

[Gallowglas]

Nightmare1, on 17 June 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

It's really simple and easy to avoid strikes. I rarely get hit, even in my slow BattleMasters.

I'm not going to defend my credentials, but I've been playing long enough that I know how it works. In practice, a good light pilot knows how to place an arty strike in such a way that they can deny you cover and force you to either eat the strike or to relinquish cover. Regardless though, I still maintain that such a broad-based attack shouldn't so frequently cause critical head damage, particularly when arty strikes are going out 10+ times a match. If the bulk of your headshots come from arty and not aimed shots, that's silly.

[Nightmare1]

Gallowglas, on 17 June 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

I'm not going to defend my credentials, but I've been playing long enough that I know how it works. In practice, a good light pilot knows how to place an arty strike in such a way that they can deny you cover and force you to either eat the strike or to relinquish cover. Regardless though, I still maintain that such a broad-based attack shouldn't so frequently cause critical head damage, particularly when arty strikes are going out 10+ times a match. If the bulk of your headshots come from arty and not aimed shots, that's silly.

Sure, a good Light pilot will be able to strike you. All I'm saying is that there are ways to mitigate the risk. I do get hit on occasion, but it doesn't happen often and I rarely take more than one hit from the strike. I also don't take very many head shots.

Cockpits are located on the top of the Mechs. Some, like the 'Pult's, are nearly horizontal. They don't have much armor on them either. When shells are raining down from above, they are more likely to hit your Mech's cockpit than an arcing shell that was hastily snapped from an enemy Mech as it ducks from cover to cover. A direct strike hit to the cockpit (or significant splash damage) should kill your BattleMech. Canonically, a strike was powerful enough to pretty much annihilate Mechs where they stood regardless of where on the Mech they hit. As far as I'm concerned, the strikes work well and do exactly what they should - there's just too many of them per match. Best way to fix the problem is to restrict the number per match to three per team. Tie it to the Command Console, introduce the roleplay that was lauded when the game was announced and restrict strikes to Commanders, or make it so that just the Company Commander and two Lance Commanders can use them. Any one of those three options will reduce the presence of strikes on the battlefield without nerfing another terrific feature of the game.

It's time to quit asking PGI to put kid gloves on your enemies and just accept strikes. I'd like to move on to CW and new game material, rather than have PGI waste time and resources nerfing strikes for folks that stand still too long and can't accept a realistic game feature.

[Monkey Lover]

The audio quality has really improved. When you compare it to vlog #1 and #2.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 17 June 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Gallowglas]

Nightmare1, on 17 June 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

A direct strike hit to the cockpit (or significant splash damage) should kill your BattleMech. Canonically, a strike was powerful enough to pretty much annihilate Mechs where they stood regardless of where on the Mech they hit. As far as I'm concerned, the strikes work well and do exactly what they should - there's just too many of them per match. Best way to fix the problem is to restrict the number per match to three per team. Tie it to the Command Console, introduce the roleplay that was lauded when the game was announced and restrict strikes to Commanders, or make it so that just the Company Commander and two Lance Commanders can use them. Any one of those three options will reduce the presence of strikes on the battlefield without nerfing another terrific feature of the game.

One difference between tabletop and/or canon and this game though is that the loss of a single mech didn't really matter because your involvement in the unfolding scenario still played out. In this game, being taken out by RNG in early game detracts from compelling gameplay. Your mech goes boom and you're done. Heck, let's be honest here: if headshots were as easy as hitting the canopy of each mech, it would be childishly simple to remove mechs from gameplay in a matter of seconds and each match would be drastically faster than it is right now. As such, I don't think many people have looked at the reduction in head hitbox as a bad thing for gameplay. I can't imagine that a similar treatment for arty is a bad thing. It's not a matter of playing with "kids gloves". It's a matter of making kills be more skill-based and less RNG-based and in extending gameplay long enough for it to be "fun".

That said, I'll agree that I don't want to see them neutered to the point where nobody bothers with them. I think your solution about them being limited addresses that. However, I'll also say that reducing the chance to hit the cockpit to something more resembling a plausible percentage without reducing the damage overall isn't going to detract from their usefulness. People still take a lot of damage from them and nobody's just going to voluntarily sit and take the strike even with a reduced headshot chance.

Nightmare1, on 17 June 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

I'd like to move on to CW and new game material, rather than have PGI waste time and resources nerfing strikes for folks that stand still too long and can't accept a realistic game feature.

I don't think they should be delaying CW either, but they've clearly already got people who are going to be tasked with adjusting weapon balance with the Clans going active. While they're doing that, it seems a good time to make other tweaks while they're under the hood, so to speak.

[Nightmare1]

Gallowglas, on 17 June 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

One difference between tabletop and/or canon and this game though is that the loss of a single mech didn't really matter because your involvement in the unfolding scenario still played out. In this game, being taken out by RNG in early game detracts from compelling gameplay. Your mech goes boom and you're done. Heck, let's be honest here: if headshots were as easy as hitting the canopy of each mech, it would be childishly simple to remove mechs from gameplay in a matter of seconds and each match would be drastically faster than it is right now. As such, I don't think many people have looked at the reduction in head hitbox as a bad thing for gameplay. I can't imagine that a similar treatment for arty is a bad thing. It's not a matter of playing with "kids gloves". It's a matter of making kills be more skill-based and less RNG-based and in extending gameplay long enough for it to be "fun".

That said, I'll agree that I don't want to see them neutered to the point where nobody bothers with them. I think your solution about them being limited addresses that. However, I'll also say that reducing the chance to hit the cockpit to something more resembling a plausible percentage without reducing the damage overall isn't going to detract from their usefulness. People still take a lot of damage from them and nobody's just going to voluntarily sit and take the strike even with a reduced headshot chance.



I don't think they should be delaying CW either, but they've clearly already got people who are going to be tasked with adjusting weapon balance with the Clans going active. While they're doing that, it seems a good time to make other tweaks while they're under the hood, so to speak.

Sorry Gallowglas, didn't mean to get worked up like that. I guess I'm just frustrated in general that there's yet another discussion about nerfing another part of the game (it's not you personally). The hitboxes are a bit out of whack on some of the Mechs still and should be reviewed. I know that I do take a lot of hits to the head on my BLRs and TDRs (generally speaking) compared to my other Mechs.

It feels like everytime I turn around, I'm finding a new forum thread devoted to nerfing something. I guess that I'm really enjoying the game as-is and don't want to see it nerfed out of whack. I'm also really ready to see new stuff rather than nerfed stuff. Here's hoping the Clans will rejuvenate things and refresh my weary MWO spirit!

Edited by Nightmare1, 17 June 2014 - 07:51 AM.

[Gallowglas]

Nightmare1, on 17 June 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

Sorry Gallowglas, didn't mean to get worked up like that. I guess I'm just frustrated in general that there's yet another discussion about nerfing another part of the game (it's not you personally). The hitboxes are a bit out of whack on some of the Mechs still and should be reviewed. I know that I do take a lot of hits to the head on my BLRs and TDRs (generally speaking) compared to my other Mechs.

It feels like everytime I turn around, I'm finding a new forum thread devoted to nerfing something. I guess that I'm really enjoying the game as-is and don't want to see it nerfed out of whack. I'm also really ready to see new stuff rather than nerfed stuff. Here's hoping the Clans will rejuvenate things and refresh my weary MWO spirit!

Just so my own tone is clear, no offense taken or hackles raised. I realize sometimes when I am trying to be funny or ironic, it can come across as condescending, which isn't my intent. I actually like intelligent, civil debate like this and I appreciate this discussion between us.

Edited by Gallowglas, 17 June 2014 - 08:33 AM.

[Desintegrator]

Not much content this time on the V-log, but a nice map at the end of the video....

[Nightmare1]

Gallowglas, on 17 June 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Just so my own tone is clear, no offense taken or hackles raised. I realize sometimes when I am trying to be funny or ironic, it can come across as condescending, which isn't my intent. I actually like intelligent, civil debate like this and I appreciate this discussion between us.

Your tone was fine - I was just concerned that mine may have sounded a bit aggressive, and I didn't mean for it to be so.

I agree with you completely! Thanks for a good conversation!

[Koniving]

Waiting? Want to see stuff?

Dire Wolf ballistics, first public test.

Image is a screenshot taken by Lordred from the action in the second video here.

Dire Wolf ballistics and Warhawk, second public test

Image taken by Lordred of my Warhawk.

The Lucky Madcat; Kon's mixed rig. 777 damage.


Hitbox test. Commando beats Thor/Summoner repeatedly! Photoshoot.

All screens by Lordred.

[Deathz Jester]

Koniving, on 17 June 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

-coolstuff-

You should start a mock-up "battlefield reporter" type video series for MWO.

[Koniving]

Iron Harlequin, on 17 June 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:

You should start a mock-up "battlefield reporter" type video series for MWO.

Not a bad idea, but already got a whole different lore series in mind.

[JoeJoeSuperLong]

this is nice and all but i think you guys need to fix the bugs before starting new stuff. people are starting to get angry over in the bug reports. please respond to them or else you are just losing fans

[_Comrade_]

Smudge504, on 15 June 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

I really want that Battlemaster T-Shirt!!!

ordered it like five weeks ago and never arrived

[CompproB237]

GinxOkami, on 21 June 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

this is nice and all but i think you guys need to fix the bugs before starting new stuff. people are starting to get angry over in the bug reports. please respond to them or else you are just losing fans

You must be new here. You see, they're not the target audience.