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Bad Game Design Is As Much The Player's Fault As It Is The Designers

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#1 A banana in the tailpipe

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 08:29 AM

I'd like to share my thoughts on how casual players are adapting to the meta without embracing it, along with how tryhards that continue to abuse it are as much to blame when it comes to "bad game design".

gumpy2k7 said:

You're blaming the players for bad game design?


It's a shared blame, but given where it is due. The "bad game design" this poster is referring to is common knowledge among the players who exploit it, so I'll call them out on it when I see them. On the bright side, even after vowing not to give 12s another chance until there's some major reform, I was pretty "open to suggestion" last night and the lure of fun with friends was enough to give it a shot. We had some awesome balanced matches at first with lots of variety and fun. They got us and we got them in healthy exchanges of skill and sportsmanship. Then the brick wall that are tryhards came up and fun time was over. The way these guys take the game so seriously and play as if their lives depended on it was hilariously tragic.

Most hardcore players will say the same old "L2P" ect... and we pick up fresh clan members weekly who have tried running with those guys claiming it wasn't any fun dropping with a pack of d-bags. They have tons of fun goofing around with us and we love them for it. We've also got some serious players of our own but they're tactful and mature enough to understand if we all ran the way they did every drop, we would be part of the problem and not the solution. It's a great group of guys. Nobody is judgmental, you can drop in what you want, and fun is a focus over winning. Winning is nice too, but if you don't have fun then you'll never drop enough to learn from mistakes. One mistake players are learning form is not indulging those bullies and the way they exploit "bad game design" because they're consciously doing it. When some tryhards rolled over us last night more than half the 12 man said "sorry we're done for now", and it sucks for those who were wanting to continue or a rematch. Imagine how many more nights end prematurely across the game, even during prime-time, because a niche part of the community thinks it's ok to exploit "bad game design?"

Casuals get told by them to go "adapt" and more and more of us are daily. We're not adapting to the meta because that's "bad game design" according to those unwilling to look in the mirror and see where the real problem lies. The majority of players are adapting directly to the D-bags themselves and the attitudes they carry around that "bad game design" is perfectly ok to exploit. It's that kind of win at any cost mentality that drives players out of the game, a game that relies on community and morale for its own survival. Bad game design is something the management will need to step in and correct, but if the players work together to reduce its impact on the game, that allows designers to be more creative than heavy handed when the time comes.

Unless overly competitive players learn to change their attitudes soon they'll be stuck playing "unable to find matchwarrior" while the rest of us have fun in private ones, because as leaders realize they'll lose a majority of active players due to one or two ugly matches of meta exploiters, they'll avoid taking their men into them for the sake of making sure everyone has a good time. As predicted in the past, bullies who exploit the meta take every opportunity to wag the dog and pile onto PGI when PGI is actually taking strides to make decent progress. Bad game design is always compounded by bad decisions. It's those conscious decisions to exploit bad game design that leaves players just as at fault for the poor health of this game as the designers who allow it.

Cheers

#2 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 08:33 AM

Sure.

Although when players have consistently and accurately predicted future issues based off of current decisions, and the company decides, instead of trying to listen and sort and test and see if maybe their community might be on to something, tells them they are on an island and that they don't listen to them, I would say that kinda skews the accountability ratio to like 90% the Devs, 10% the Players.

Cheers.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 25 May 2014 - 09:05 AM.


#3 EgoSlayer

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:04 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 May 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Sure.

Although when players have consistently and accurately predicted future issues based off of current decisions, and the company decides, instead of trying to listen and sort and test and see if maybe their community might be on to something, tells them they are on an island and that they don't listen to them, I would say that kinda skews the accountability ration to like 90% the Devs, 10% the Players.

Cheers.

^This.

Plus if the developers see that x0% (60%? 70%?) of the game is being used in significantly lower volumes (Mech variants, weapon systems) in favor of a limited set of most effective configurations they should know there is an issue and respond, not wait for feedback on the forums.

Expecting most people to just reject the most effective configurations to create a player enforced "balance" is just folly.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 25 May 2014 - 09:05 AM.


#4 Silentium

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:11 AM

I can't quote because phone posting, but EgoSlayer's observation vis-a-vis player behavior is spot on. Players will do what they can to win, any fairness dimension is immaterial. If the game allows you to do something, expect people to do it.

#5 Ted Wayz

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:11 AM

How do you make it fun in a shooter to scout? You set up rewards around the activity. That is not the players responsibility, it is the developers. Currently you have the spotting bonus. That is it. There aren't even any achievements for spotting. So one of the major gameplay elements from the TT is not rewarded so you see bunch of lights carrying heavy weapons because damage, kills and assists are rewarded.

If PGI rewards and make scouting an integral part of victory, if the other classes are rewarded for doing their roles, then the meta falls apart. My guess is this is what CW is supposed to do, but I am unsure if we will ever see it.

#6 East Indy

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:19 AM

Good design marginalizes, or at least compartmentalizes, runaway power-gaming. Good design is hard.

That aside, you're never going to find a game where top-level play isn't prescriptive. And you're always going to have munchkins. However, this game is still large enough so that those who don't min-max will face like-minded players most of the time.

So even if the metagame is still irritatingly off from what the game should feel like, you still have a lot of ways to enjoy playing MWO.

#7 Trauglodyte

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:31 AM

So, you're saying that it is my fault that we're playing 3 game modes only on the same maps with weapons that still aren't balanced attached to mechs which still aren't balanced, or sized right for that matter, when I didn't ask for any of this?

#8 FupDup

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:33 AM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 25 May 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

... when I didn't ask for any of this?



#9 darkchylde

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:36 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 May 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Sure.

Although when players have consistently and accurately predicted future issues based off of current decisions, and the company decides, instead of trying to listen and sort and test and see if maybe their community might be on to something, tells them they are on an island and that they don't listen to them, I would say that kinda skews the accountability ratio to like 90% the Devs, 10% the Players.

Cheers.


Very, well said.

#10 Bulletsponge0

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:37 AM

View PostTed Wayz, on 25 May 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

How do you make it fun in a shooter to scout? You set up rewards around the activity. That is not the players responsibility, it is the developers. Currently you have the spotting bonus. That is it. There aren't even any achievements for spotting. So one of the major gameplay elements from the TT is not rewarded so you see bunch of lights carrying heavy weapons because damage, kills and assists are rewarded.

If PGI rewards and make scouting an integral part of victory, if the other classes are rewarded for doing their roles, then the meta falls apart. My guess is this is what CW is supposed to do, but I am unsure if we will ever see it.

Exactly, there are so many aspects to this game that aren't rewarded. Aspects that directly relate to wins/losses. If those roles got rewarded like damage/kills, then you'd see more players assuming those different roles and the game would self-correct itself to better balance

#11 TimePeriod

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:39 AM

PGI can't get their **** together and never will unless someone from outside their little bubble of comfort rips them out of it. So many issues and so many bad decisions. Maybe I am just seeing all the negative sides but thanks to their decision on the general forum we now only get to see the same 5 issues day-after-day-after-day.

I could continue but Wolfenstein is a far better waste of time then this, maybe I will find another game to grind. Who knows!

#12 tucsonspeed6

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:40 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 May 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Sure.

Although when players have consistently and accurately predicted future issues based off of current decisions, and the company decides, instead of trying to listen and sort and test and see if maybe their community might be on to something, tells them they are on an island and that they don't listen to them, I would say that kinda skews the accountability ration to like 90% the Devs, 10% the Players.

Cheers.


I haven't seen BETTER solutions by the community either. IE: replacing Ghost Heat with convergence alterations won't affect mechs that can use multiple ppcs on a single component like the Battlemaster, and cone of fire would punish people firing a single PPC as much as those firing 5, so why even use it at all? So if the devs have the community to critique their solutions, who will critique the community solutions? Other members of the community? Turns out, the community dismisses other community members just as easily as Russ did. Where do you think the term 'White Knight' came from anyway?

#13 Adiuvo

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:47 AM

I didn't know sticking a weapon on a mech could make you a d-bag and a bully.

Damn MWO, you a serious thing.

#14 M0rpHeu5

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:54 AM

I feel so at fault right now. After getting repeatedly ignored and lied upon by PGI i am still here hopping.

#15 Bront

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 09:55 AM

Blaming competitive players for not coddling players is hardly causing the bad game design. Does it hurt the new player experience? Sure, to a point, but there are plenty of helpful folks out there as well, and this is a competitive game.

Top tier competitors are driven to be the best, and often it's regardless of what other people do or think, but generally those players are generally a smaller percentage of the game.

As for the game design, competitive players will fish out an advantage in any way they can, so to expect them to regularly do otherwise is hardly the game's fault. Meanwhile, the devs have put the game in front of them to play, and that's how they'll play it.

You'd be surprised how many of the top tier competitive groups dislike what's required to play at the high levels, but they'll do it to win.

There have been plenty of suggestions on ways to make gameplay better. Unfortunately the only ones who can implement them is PGI (and it sounds like they might be moving that to private matches rather than do it themselves).

To sum it up, players effect the community, developers effect the game. You can't really blame the players for the game.

And no, I'm not a top tier competitive player. Far from it.

#16 Flyby215

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 10:08 AM

I've been seeing "so-and-so" playing a lot of metamechs lately, I guess he finally got tired of losing.

Its nice to see a lot of dragonslayers on the other team, because then you're playing against guys who don't suck.

beat or be beaten

its a lot of fun killing noobs

we're playing conquest for easier kills

salty tears yum yum

It's good against everything. Bunch of lights, missile boats, other Dragonslayers, it can handle anything.

Quotes from Dragonslayer pilots.

(Did it work this time?)

Edited by Flyby215, 25 May 2014 - 10:10 AM.


#17 Tor6

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 10:19 AM

No, it's not.

#18 Agent of Change

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 10:24 AM

OP

I'm wondering how you make it through your days with your eyes closed so tightly?

Seriously? Yes players will push the boundaries of good taste and what is possible, but when the foundation is so very very very very broken who is responsible? The players? Not the people responsible for the half-assed easily broken, fundamentally flawed foundation?

You can be a white knight, you can be a PGI apologist, but i mean at least base your arguments in reality.

Edited by Agent of Change, 25 May 2014 - 10:28 AM.


#19 Jun Watarase

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 10:41 AM

OP you dont need to write such a long paragraph. Its well established legal precedent in almost every country that, say, going into a house with an unlocked door to rob the place doesnt place the blame on the house owner, but on you. Even if the lock was faulty, that doesnt mean the locksmith takes all the blame either.

Anyone attempting to push all the blame to PGI at this point is simply looking for a convenient scapegoat to rationalize their inexcusable behaviour. No amount of logic will convince them. These are the very same people who would take advantage of security loopholes to steal money from bank accounts and then blame the bank for having shoddy security, while insisting that they cannot possibly be blamed for taking the opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of others.

And most of them are also proponents of victim blaming, the whole "its YOUR fault for not using meta builds like us!" thing. Nobody takes victim blamers seriously, so i dont need to go into detail here.

#20 Dymlos2003

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 10:43 AM

View PostAgent of Change, on 25 May 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

OP

I'm wondering how you make it through your days with your eyes closed so tightly?

Seriously? Yes players will push the boundaries of good taste and what is possible, but when the foundation is so very very very very broken who is responsible? The players? Not the people responsible for the half-assed easily broken, fundamentally flawed foundation?

You can be a white knight, you can be a PGI apologist, but i mean at least base your arguments in reality.


He's being neither of those. Did you guys even read the post?



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