556 replies to this topic

[Mavairo]

Biaxialrain, on 19 July 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Not sure what QQ is or QQ'ing is, probably have to be under 20 y/o to know that.

Anyway, they are not balanced at all, you guys are rationalizing your purchases and your newly found "skills".

FEAR CLAN TECH OMG!

No wait.. FEAR THE FANG OP OP OP OP

Edited by Mavairo, 19 July 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[bluepiglet]

Mavairo, on 19 July 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

FEAR CLAN TECH OMG!

No wait.. FEAR THE FANG OP OP OP OP

How about some statistics comparison instead of cherry-picked screenshots?

[Mavairo]

bluepiglet, on 19 July 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

How about some statistics comparison instead of cherry-picked screenshots?

I have about 100 more of those, and I've not even played all that much since clan tech came out (I've been on dayshift which disrupts my playtime, due to some other obligations I have).

My Fang and it's 2.25 KDR is loving the clan mechs.
TDR sitting at 1.78, 1.95, 1.63 and 1.88.
None of my mechs have suffered, I've actually Gained KDR since the launch of the clans.

Clan tech aside from the GR+2PPC setup is out and out inferior to what we carry.
FLD for the win.

Edited by Mavairo, 19 July 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[bluepiglet]

Mavairo, on 19 July 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

I have about 100 more of those, and I've not even played all that much since clan tech came out (I've been on dayshift which disrupts my playtime, due to some other obligations I have).

My Fang and it's 2.25 KDR is loving the clan mechs.

Right, bringing your skill into the mech comparison is totally scientific and smart, the later part could be true and intended.

[Mavairo]

bluepiglet, on 19 July 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Right, bringing your skill into the mech comparison is totally scientific and smart, the later part could be true and intended.

with the way ELO works, my skill is in theory relative to everyone elses that I'm facing down or playing with. Over a large enough sample size (is 100 enough? hard to say) Trends will start to emerge.

One thing I've noticed, is the people that die early to clan mechs, are guys used to taking one solid slug of damage, and not used to facing down lasers. (which that is all clan Acs are, are just glorified lasers)
Mechs that can either move, in hit and fade attacks (like the Dragon) or are very good at Spreading damage (like the TDR, with it's even sized rounded torsos, and thick arms) have tended to fair better than mechs like my Cataphract which is honestly just a big broadside of a barn with long flat torsos, and tiny arms, and a general lack of mobility.

Of all my heavies, the Cataphract is the one that noticed the Clan Release the most, because of it's relatively poor speed (I favored sheer firepower on mine), skinny arms, and long flat torsos that can still be hit as the mech twists away.

Also, I tend to not run XLs in anything but a Dragon or Catapult, which is probably another reason why I've not taken dips in overall performance save the phract. So I can more safely use internal structure at times to shield more vital components and sides when my over all armor is running low.

Tips for Ending Clan Mechs:
1 don't stare at them, unless you KNOW they are on weapon CD, or are not targeting you. Fire off your own duration weapons while they are on cool down.

2: do not put XLs in anything that doesn't have a Gigantic Easy to Pop CT and relatively hard to hit STs. (this is a good rule of thumb regardless)

3: out flank their assaults. The fastest Assault mech they have is the warhawk, which moves at a respectible 71 kph, but for it's speed it lacks in firepower. An IS heavy can actually be more heavily armed than a warhawk and be just as agile. The Direwhale once you get on his ST, you can pretty much stay there. Whats even worse for him, is while you stay out of the reach of the lionshare of his firepower, you can still blow out his CT. Even more devastating though, is to hit them from behind. If you think Stalkers are Turkey Shoots from behind, a DW is an even Easier target, since the mech is physically larger in width and height with larger hit boxes for the rear CT. It's also so balls slow that as long as you move 55 kph or better (I've done this to them in Atlases), he can't actually out turn you to get you off his rear CT, and if he does, he just exposed what should be Internals to the rest of your team.

4: Their lights Suck. The only ECM they have, is in the Kitfox, which is honestly only marginally not as terrible as a Locust. It's large, easy to hit, and pitifully slow for a light mech. I have Dragons that move faster. (which also carry bigger and badder guns) Pop off their lights first thing since that's the only credible defense other than the stormcrow that clan mechs have to protecting the DW in a clan heavy team. Their timbers can and should be out doing flanking and brawling duty or sniping duty if it's carrying GR+PPCs.

Wipe even just a couple of light mechs off the board, and then the direwhales and a clan based team will fall to pieces in short order. The loss of firepower from losing a DW is staggering and devastating in the worst way, and worse yet the mech isn't very good at self defense.

[KuroNyra]

bluepiglet, on 19 July 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Right, bringing your skill into the mech comparison is totally scientific and smart, the later part could be true and intended.

Just like your on purpose avoiding all the other component of the Clan Mech when stating there OP only by talking about there weapons.
Locked heatsink, engine, component, etc etc.

Avoiding too the longer beam duration, the damage easier to spread and all.

You just don't know how to handle this new threat and that scare you. That's why your whining like a bunch of baby.
My Yen-Lo-Wang had no problem dealing with Timber Wolf and other clan mech.
Don't play on there advantage, and stay with the teammate. Focus fire, etc etc.

I shouldn't even had to explain (again) why the clans mech are far from being the "Win" button you claim them to be. (while owning absolutly no one of them.)

[Rhent]

bluepiglet, on 19 July 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

Are you sure the newer data will aid your case?

The Clan ER PPC makes you so sad, because it's identical to the IS counterpart, except for 50% extra splash damage, and being 17% lighter...... Such depressing for you, isn't it?

Like I said, some players are willing to say anything now, to keep the broken game broken so they can have an edge in weaponry to make up what they are lack in skill.

Clan Lasers will not aid your cause. The difference in burn duration of a Clan ERLL to a ERLL is 1 1/2 seconds to 1 second, which is HUGE. It gets really bad if you run a 4 LL stalker vs a 4 CERLL Warhawk. First, the Stalker now has a significant Heat Per Second advantage over the Clanner and then when you put in the significantly smaller burn duration, IS Large Lasers win ALL THE TIME.

I'm assuming you can pilot, read terrain and haven't developed techniques where you expose yourself for long periods of time without torso turning.

The difference in Clan to IS is that Clans doe stream and that IS do FLD. A typical IS mech can fire in snaps, torso turn to shield and continue to return fire. OR you could run an IS fast SRM mech and brawl a Clan Mech to death. Most Clan mechs are horrible brawlers due to them having NO SHIELD arms.

Cherry picking your data makes your argument weaker and weaker.

[KuroNyra]

Rhent, on 19 July 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Clan Lasers will not aid your cause. The difference in burn duration of a Clan ERLL to a ERLL is 1 1/2 seconds to 1 second, which is HUGE. It gets really bad if you run a 4 LL stalker vs a 4 CERLL Warhawk. First, the Stalker now has a significant Heat Per Second advantage over the Clanner and then when you put in the significantly smaller burn duration, IS Large Lasers win ALL THE TIME.

I'm assuming you can pilot, read terrain and haven't developed techniques where you expose yourself for long periods of time without torso turning.

The difference in Clan to IS is that Clans doe stream and that IS do FLD. A typical IS mech can fire in snaps, torso turn to shield and continue to return fire. OR you could run an IS fast SRM mech and brawl a Clan Mech to death. Most Clan mechs are horrible brawlers due to them having NO SHIELD arms.

Cherry picking your data makes your argument weaker and weaker.

Don't try wasting your time.
This guy and Biaxalrain are two convinced whiners.

I'm pretty sur they don't even really read our post.
Just like typical kid's.

[Adiuvo]

Rhent, on 19 July 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Clan Lasers will not aid your cause. The difference in burn duration of a Clan ERLL to a ERLL is 1 1/2 seconds to 1 second, which is HUGE. It gets really bad if you run a 4 LL stalker vs a 4 CERLL Warhawk. First, the Stalker now has a significant Heat Per Second advantage over the Clanner and then when you put in the significantly smaller burn duration, IS Large Lasers win ALL THE TIME.

I'm assuming you can pilot, read terrain and haven't developed techniques where you expose yourself for long periods of time without torso turning.

The difference in Clan to IS is that Clans doe stream and that IS do FLD. A typical IS mech can fire in snaps, torso turn to shield and continue to return fire. OR you could run an IS fast SRM mech and brawl a Clan Mech to death. Most Clan mechs are horrible brawlers due to them having NO SHIELD arms.

Cherry picking your data makes your argument weaker and weaker.

The Warhawk is superior to the Stalker in that config.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...879564c936120a0

vs.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d26df85e39b0904

[KuroNyra]

Adiuvo, on 19 July 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

The Warhawk is superior to the Stalker in that config.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...879564c936120a0

vs.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d26df85e39b0904

On a open field 1 vs 1 yeah.
But what about during a 12 vs 12 match?

A Locust is inferior to a jenner, yet in the match. A Locust could kill a jenner even if he got a disadvantage.

My Protector faced a Dire Wolf on the basic configuration 2 gauss + 2 PPC, yet. I won the fight, why? Because I also had support from a Centurion, and we both used the ground at our advantage to stay out of the dire wolf line of sight.
And manage to destroy him.
Even if he was on a better state than our mech.
Loadout doesn't make everything.
The map, the team, the game. All of that also influence the fight.

[Hobgoblin I]

Rhent, on 19 July 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Clan Lasers will not aid your cause. The difference in burn duration of a Clan ERLL to a ERLL is 1 1/2 seconds to 1 second, which is HUGE. It gets really bad if you run a 4 LL stalker vs a 4 CERLL Warhawk. First, the Stalker now has a significant Heat Per Second advantage over the Clanner and then when you put in the significantly smaller burn duration, IS Large Lasers win ALL THE TIME.

I'm assuming you can pilot, read terrain and haven't developed techniques where you expose yourself for long periods of time without torso turning.

The difference in Clan to IS is that Clans doe stream and that IS do FLD. A typical IS mech can fire in snaps, torso turn to shield and continue to return fire. OR you could run an IS fast SRM mech and brawl a Clan Mech to death. Most Clan mechs are horrible brawlers due to them having NO SHIELD arms.

Cherry picking your data makes your argument weaker and weaker.

the cherry picker calls cherry picking...the warhawk carries many more heatsinks so it can keep firing longer. It can also carry thr mk 5 comp to increase its already ridiculous range advantage or just carry another laser and the comp.

[KuroNyra]

Hobgoblin I, on 19 July 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

the cherry picker calls cherry picking...the warhawk carries many more heatsinks so it can keep firing longer. It can also carry thr mk 5 comp to increase its already ridiculous range advantage or just carry another laser and the comp.

You forget that theses heatsink take also a lot of place and stop people from having even more free space.
The Warhawk was designed has an energy boat for long rang engagement. Your gonna blame it for that?
True, the heatsink proove to be usefull, but they are also a problem because they are taking lot's of place that could be used to load ammo for the ballistics loadout.

And the larges laser also suffer from the ghost heat, and have a longer beam duration.
Put that with the fact you can't also change the type of armor, or the engine. Or as I said move component else where.
You obtain a assault mech who is having lot's of firepower, but still need to be careful about the heat managing.

+ at short rang, the rang advantage is make useless, and can even become a problem, again because of the longer beam duration.


Clans mech are meant to have more Damage Per Minute, but IS Mech are meant to be more focused on pinpoit damage.
A 4 PPC warhawk at close rang while have problem fighting because even with lot's of heatsing. The ErPPC still do a lot of heat, and every shot will count.

[Hobgoblin I]

KuroNyra, on 19 July 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

You forget that theses heatsink take also a lot of place and stop people from having even more free space.
The Warhawk was designed has an energy boat for long rang engagement. Your gonna blame it for that?
True, the heatsink proove to be usefull, but they are also a problem because they are taking lot's of place that could be used to load ammo for the ballistics loadout.

And the larges laser also suffer from the ghost heat, and have a longer beam duration.
Put that with the fact you can't also change the type of armor, or the engine. Or as I said move component else where.
You obtain a assault mech who is having lot's of firepower, but still need to be careful about the heat managing.

+ at short rang, the rang advantage is make useless, and can even become a problem, again because of the longer beam duration.


Clans mech are meant to have more Damage Per Minute, but IS Mech are meant to be more focused on pinpoit damage.
A 4 PPC warhawk at close rang while have problem fighting because even with lot's of heatsing. The ErPPC still do a lot of heat, and every shot will count.

You forget that those heat sinks only take up 2/3 of their IS counterparts.
You forget that the stalker in question is also an energy boat..is this somehow not a fair comparison?
You talk about ammo is pointless when we were taling about a stalker laser boat vs. a warhawk laser boat.
You forget that the fastest any stalker will ever go is 65kph while the warhawk does 71.3.
I have no idea why you mentioned a 4 PPC anything.

[Daneel Hazen]

INKBALL, on 18 June 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Until some big ChangeLogs, you wont see me much. And yes, im kinda mad.

It's going to be funny when people get clan mechs for cbills and find out how not OP they are.

[bluepiglet]

Rhent, on 19 July 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Clan Lasers will not aid your cause. The difference in burn duration of a Clan ERLL to a ERLL is 1 1/2 seconds to 1 second, which is HUGE. It gets really bad if you run a 4 LL stalker vs a 4 CERLL Warhawk. First, the Stalker now has a significant Heat Per Second advantage over the Clanner and then when you put in the significantly smaller burn duration, IS Large Lasers win ALL THE TIME.

Not sure if serious.... you are comparing HPS in a 1v1 comparison?

IS LL has a damage/heat value of 1.06 vs Clan's 1.32, which means for each heat unit generated, the Clan LL about 30% extra damage over IS one, combined with 10% high DPS, which means in the scenario you described while the WHK might overheat first, by the time it happens a lot more damage would have been done to the STK, and even when the damage output of both meches are bottlenecked by the heat, WHK still have a 30% advantage over STK simply because the D/H value is so.

And I don't even want to start on the range issue here.

And don't you dare mention PPFLD as long as the 2 CL-Gauss + 2 CL-ERPPC DireWolf is still out there.

Edited by bluepiglet, 19 July 2014 - 10:08 AM.

[Adiuvo]

KuroNyra, on 19 July 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

You forget that theses heatsink take also a lot of place and stop people from having even more free space.
The Warhawk was designed has an energy boat for long rang engagement. Your gonna blame it for that?
True, the heatsink proove to be usefull, but they are also a problem because they are taking lot's of place that could be used to load ammo for the ballistics loadout.

And the larges laser also suffer from the ghost heat, and have a longer beam duration.
Put that with the fact you can't also change the type of armor, or the engine. Or as I said move component else where.
You obtain a assault mech who is having lot's of firepower, but still need to be careful about the heat managing.

+ at short rang, the rang advantage is make useless, and can even become a problem, again because of the longer beam duration.


Clans mech are meant to have more Damage Per Minute, but IS Mech are meant to be more focused on pinpoit damage.
A 4 PPC warhawk at close rang while have problem fighting because even with lot's of heatsing. The ErPPC still do a lot of heat, and every shot will count.

None of that matters if we're comparing specific configs that would make use of the forced equipment anyways. Which, in this case, is between ERLL boats. The Warhawk is flat out better than the Stalker in that config, whether in 12s or pubs.

[TimePeriod]

I still don't get this topic. Why are Clan OP? They explode left, right and centre without much effort required.

A lousy pilot in a good 'Mech will still be a lousy pilot.

[KuroNyra]

Hobgoblin I, on 19 July 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

You forget that those heat sinks only take up 2/3 of their IS counterparts.
You forget that the stalker in question is also an energy boat..is this somehow not a fair comparison?
You talk about ammo is pointless when we were taling about a stalker laser boat vs. a warhawk laser boat.
You forget that the fastest any stalker will ever go is 65kph while the warhawk does 71.3.
I have no idea why you mentioned a 4 PPC anything.

The Awesome is an Energy Boat, yet I don't see you complaining about the inferiority of the Awesome against a Stalker.
The clan heatsink are more advanced one, what. You tought PGI were not gonna at least respect some stuff? The Clans Mech have some advantage on some point, but the othery way is also true.

Adiuvo, on 19 July 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

None of that matters if we're comparing specific configs that would make use of the forced equipment anyways. Which, in this case, is between ERLL boats. The Warhawk is flat out better than the Stalker in that config, whether in 12s or pubs.

You forget to take in account then the more shield friendly design of the stalker who is harder to CT since his side torso are much easier to use compared to the warhawk.
You also forget that the Stalker got shorted beam duration for his large laser and thus have less time to show his CT and can deal all the damage at the prescise location. Contrary to the warhawk who will need to focus longer his beam in order to do full damage.

Again, you must own the clans mech to know that theses "littles" difference generaly make all the difference between victory and defeat on the battlefield.
It's not the same playstyle.
Look similar, but isn't.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 19 July 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

None of that matters if we're comparing specific configs that would make use of the forced equipment anyways. Which, in this case, is between ERLL boats. The Warhawk is flat out better than the Stalker in that config, whether in 12s or pubs.

Well, except for hillhumping and hitboxes.

Doesn't the stalker have it beat there? is LLs also deal the same damage .2 seconds sooner, which may or may not prove to be enough to twist the CT out of the way to avoid that additional damage. Lack of shield arms limits the damage soaking ability.

[Adiuvo]

KuroNyra, on 19 July 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

You forget to take in account then the more shield friendly design of the stalker who is harder to CT since his side torso are much easier to use compared to the warhawk.
You also forget that the Stalker got shorted beam duration for his large laser and thus have less time to show his CT and can deal all the damage at the prescise location. Contrary to the warhawk who will need to focus longer his beam in order to do full damage.

Again, you must own the clans mech to know that theses "littles" difference generaly make all the difference between victory and defeat on the battlefield.
It's not the same playstyle.
Look similar, but isn't.

The Warhawk doesn't have bad hitboxes. Facetanking no, it's not as good as a Stalker, but it's not hard to shield with a Warhawk either.

Beam duration matters little when your lasers are doing more damage and you have more of them. It also doesn't matter due to the point of the mech - long range sniping. Like, really long range sniping. 1000m+ sniping. You're fighting stuff that your team has already baited out in the open if you're making this part of an actual drop deck. The Warhawk has the range, damage, and DPS advantage over the Stalker. It's just better at ERLL sniping than the Stalker is due to these things.

I have access to clans. I'm well aware of their various benefits and drawbacks.

Edited by Adiuvo, 19 July 2014 - 10:15 AM.