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Clan Is Op Or You Guys Are Blind ?


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#221 Atheus

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:03 PM

View PostMystere, on 20 June 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:



That only works if skill and power are in a simple multiplicative relationship. But, what if it is really:

v = maximum([p * e^f(s)], [s * e^f(p)])

where:

f(s) = some function based on player skill
f(p) = some function based on mech build
p * e^f(s) = victory potential of a mech when piloted by someone with a specific set of skills
s * e^f(p) = victory potential of a player when piloting a specific mech build

Something to think about. ;)

You're trying to set up a relationship where an increase in power with no change to skill may result in an identical or lower victory potential, and I don't think you've actually succeeded, because you're not changing the type of build, only increasing the power of said build by putting in stronger weapons. It all becomes rather confusing when you try to use it in the real world since p is actually a matrix, and s is also a matrix, but it's not hard to predict that when you increase many values in p(ower) while holding other variables constant, you'll see an increase in v(ictory potential).

I understand what you are trying to say, though. Maybe clan weapons require a different skill set, or a different strategy to exploit their higher damage, range, smaller size, lighter weight, better heat efficiency, and somehow compensate for the minor increase in time on target. I have confidence that when you hand a player of any skill level a weapon system with 7-8 major pros and 1-2 minor cons (which sometimes turn out to not be cons at all, like in the case of the C-ERML), they'll figure out how to make it work in their favor.

People are putting a lot of faith on the PPFLD aspect to save the IS from obsolescence - mostly because the ballistics are the one place where IS weapons deviate significantly in nature from Clan and PPFLD is the one desirable attribute they have over the clan variants, which shoot faster and further, take up less weight and space and have more shots per ton of ammo. But aside from the fact that PGI is already flirting with changing IS weapons to increase damage spread as well, as has been pointed out the clan can also do PPFLD with gauss, plus has the option to crank out insane 36+ dps type attacks (6xC-UAC/5) and sustain them, among other tools in a bag of deadly tricks the IS will never reproduce.

#222 Straften

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:07 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 18 June 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

I feel your pain and frustration. It'll be half a year almost before you can even see what Clan Mechs handle like or work like without dropping a bunch of cash. It's hard NOT to compare that to some sort of 'pay for advantage/P2W'.

My clan mech gets stomped by IS mechs all the time though. Balance is *very* close to right. Take a break but don't give up.

Yeah man, don't give up! Come back when the clanners have mastered their $240 package of mechs and are even more powerful than now, and try again. It's not about how many times you get cored, it's about picking yourself back up again, and running into the hail of fire so that the P2W guys can continue having fun.

Wait a second... ;)

#223 Bhael Fire

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:11 PM

How can someone not feel embarrased to make threads like this?

Boggles the mind.

#224 Abrahms

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:12 PM

PGI is a scam. When they sold founder's packs, they assured players it wouldn't be pay2win.

It was not long until pay2win creeped in.

Now it is just blatant pay2win. Clan mechs, according to the game files, are indeed superior.

Additionally, if you bought MC for REAL MONEY, you still canNOT buy a clan mech. You have to let your MC rot and fork out absurd prices.

So essentially, for the next three months, MWO is indeed, VERY pay2win. Better mechs if you pay!!!

PGI is engrossed with fraud, misrepresentation, and incompetence. Fortunately for them, they only steal dollar amounts small enough (even $500 is small enough) that a lawsuit would not be worth it (and theyre in Canada).

I feel bad for new players that get stuck in this mess. Fortunately, the pay2win model is so off-putting and trial mechs are so bad that they may steer clear before wasting a penny on this mess.

Edited by Abrahms, 20 June 2014 - 01:14 PM.


#225 Straften

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:13 PM

View PostBhael Fire, on 20 June 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

How can someone not feel embarrased to make threads like this?

Boggles the mind.


How can someone not feel embarrassed to pay $240 to win at a video game?

#226 Sephlock

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:17 PM

View PostStraften, on 20 June 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:


How can someone not feel embarrassed to pay $240 to win at a video game?

Most people certainly would.

The better question is: how can people not feel embarrassed to thinly disguise their envy as a crusade for balance?

#227 Grizley

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:18 PM

View PostStraften, on 20 June 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:


How can someone not feel embarrassed to pay $240 to win at a video game?


240$ isn't all that much to some of us, not everyone works at burger king.

2500$ gaming computer that you can use for an hour or two a day for a year or two, if you're spending half or more of that time MWO that's dirt cheap in comparison.

#228 Spokig

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:19 PM

Playing with a computer screen is OP and they should nerf it!

/Sarcasm off

No, The clans are not OP you just need to use different tactics as an IS.

#229 Abrahms

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:20 PM

View PostSephlock, on 20 June 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Most people certainly would.

The better question is: how can people not feel embarrassed to thinly disguise their envy as a crusade for balance?


Some people are huge fans of mechwarrior and want a great game to play for market value. $60 buys you 100% access to most AAA games, and another $50 (90 total) for 100% access to games with DLC packs.

$60 here buys you worthless MC and $55 can buy you one a la carte overpowered mech. Some spend $240 for a few overpowered mechs.

It is just a shady pay2win game. Other free 2 play games like League of Legends at least earn a profit without swindling you. Runes are IP (game earned) only and levels allow masteries, but RP buys heroes and skins... it does not qualify as pay2win because in a few days you can have access to anything you can buy for the most part. The game was still HUGELY succesful.

#230 Sephlock

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:20 PM

View PostAbrahms, on 20 June 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

PGI is a scam. When they sold founder's packs, they assured players it wouldn't be pay2win.

It was not long until pay2win creeped in.


Do tell.

I am going to be charitable and assume that you are not callling the Founder's packs P2W, but given the absurdity seen in this thread, that is a bit of a leap.

Quote


Now it is just blatant pay2win. Clan mechs, according to the game files, are indeed superior.
Citations needed.

Quote

PGI is engrossed with fraud, misrepresentation, and incompetence. Fortunately for them, they only steal dollar amounts small enough (even $500 is small enough) that a lawsuit would not be worth it (and theyre in Canada).


http://en.wikipedia....ki/Class_action

http://www.gameinfor...tlefield-4.aspx

Quote

I feel bad for new players that get stuck in this mess. Fortunately, the pay2win model is so off-putting and trial mechs are so bad that they may steer clear before wasting a penny on this mess.

I would have been with you in this if you had instead cited the interface, the ghost heat, etc etc. You are right about (most of) the trial mechs though.

#231 Straften

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:21 PM

View PostSephlock, on 20 June 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Most people certainly would.

The better question is: how can people not feel embarrassed to thinly disguise their envy as a crusade for balance?


LOL! Pitty =/= Envy

#232 Sephlock

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:21 PM

View PostAbrahms, on 20 June 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:


Some people are huge fans of mechwarrior and want a great game to play for market value. $60 buys you 100% access to most AAA games, and another $50 (90 total) for 100% access to games with DLC packs.

$60 here buys you worthless MC and $55 can buy you one a la carte overpowered mech. Some spend $240 for a few overpowered mechs.

It is just a shady pay2win game. Other free 2 play games like League of Legends at least earn a profit without swindling you. Runes are IP (game earned) only and levels allow masteries, but RP buys heroes and skins... it does not qualify as pay2win because in a few days you can have access to anything you can buy for the most part. The game was still HUGELY succesful.

I was with you right until the word "overpowered" at which point you went off the rails and into envytown.

View PostStraften, on 20 June 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:


LOL! Pitty =/= Envy

Yes, we pity you, you envy us. We get it.

You don't have to pretend.

#233 lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:22 PM

View PostStraften, on 20 June 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:


How can someone not feel embarrassed to pay $240 to win at a video game?


When said people were just as talented at winning with IS mechs, perhaps? Just putting that out there. Those Air Jordans aren't going to make you jump higher.

#234 Bhael Fire

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:25 PM

View PostStraften, on 20 June 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:


How can someone not feel embarrassed to pay $240 to win at a video game?


I trash Clan mechs like aluminium cans all the time in my IS mechs — if you think spending $240 on this game will allow you to insta-win, then that says more about you than it does this game.

The fact is, no amount of money will allow you to win.

It will save you time...and that's about it.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 20 June 2014 - 01:27 PM.


#235 Straften

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:29 PM

View PostGrizley, on 20 June 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:


240$ isn't all that much to some of us, not everyone works at burger king.

2500$ gaming computer that you can use for an hour or two a day for a year or two, if you're spending half or more of that time MWO that's dirt cheap in comparison.


I'm glad you have a great job, but it's still pay to win.

View Post00ohDstruct, on 20 June 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:


When said people were just as talented at winning with IS mechs, perhaps? Just putting that out there. Those Air Jordans aren't going to make you jump higher.


Not losing to IS mechs though, funny that.

View PostSephlock, on 20 June 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

I was with you right until the word "overpowered" at which point you went off the rails and into envytown.


Yes, we pity you, you envy us. We get it.

You don't have to pretend.


You paid $240 so you can do this:
Posted Image

#236 Hillslam

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:31 PM

I think the clan mechs are fine with the exception of the AC spam designs. They need tweaked like PGI did to the Jagers running 4AC2s w macros. aka Heat or something.

Other than that I think we're pretty good here.

#237 cSand

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:31 PM

View PostStraften, on 20 June 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:


I'm glad you have a great job, but it's still pay to win.



Not losing to IS mechs though, funny that.



You paid $240 so you can do this:
Posted Image


Well then, if you can't handle it, why don't you pay some money so you can see just how "easy" it is out there.



Face it. You need to work on your skills, and can't own up to the fact that you can't win all the time. Just like everyone else who cries P2W

FTR I am piloting IS mechs all the time.

Edited by cSand, 20 June 2014 - 01:32 PM.


#238 Atheus

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:32 PM

View Postqki, on 20 June 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

oooohh, math...
can't argue with math. Not when there's equations and sh*t...

Are you another one of those "if you don't play the game my way, you might as well not play at all" types?
The self-professed, "super-elite" competetive crowd.

I find it amusing how completely out of touch with reality your case examples are, and the argument always boils down to "anyone not playing the absolute best mech is not playing right".

I have never said anything like this, nor have I exhibited this sort of attitude. I don't give a crap how you play, or what mech you run. What I care about, and what I'm talking about, is PGI putting superior tech behind a 6 month high, $240 thick pay wall. Yeah, it's also quite annoying that the only people left in this game are the ones who will white knight that sort of decision, and deny to their grave that clan tech is probably just flat out superior, just as intended.

This reminds me of 2 things

1. The great DHS debate of 2012, where a few players started a thread suggesting that SHS were obsolete, unnecessarily confusing, harmful to the new player experience (almost all trial mechs had SHS), and should probably be removed from the game completely. Swarms of specials wanted to claim that SHS were still relevant and useful. There were glorious white knights who would come in and yell and shout about how SHS were awesome and lore and vital to certain builds, then proceed to show off some crappy SHS build which demonstrated that they didn't actually know how DHS worked (which was PGI's fault, but that's neither here nor there).

2. The republican party, which still denies climate change despite both a figurative and literal flood of evidence and total consensus within the science community.

Anyway, I didn't read the rest of what you wrote, since it didn't seem like you were talking to me anyway (at least not the real me).

Edited by Atheus, 20 June 2014 - 01:33 PM.


#239 Grizley

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:37 PM

View PostStraften, on 20 June 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:


I'm glad you have a great job, but it's still pay to win.



How do you figure?

Clan mechs are different than IS, for sure, but better not really. There are some things they have that are absolutely golden, the clan ER medium laser for instance. But there are also some really garbage things, the base autocannons, the medium pulse etc etc.

Plus, it only works on clan chassis that can't be modified nearly as much as IS machines. You're stuck with your engine, you have locked crit slots, you can't upgrade/downgrade armor or structure types, for some machines you either have no arms or no large guns in those arms.

Also keep in mind that there are disadvantages that go with clan weapons too. Longer burn times, beams on autocannons instead of point damage, streams of lrms that get blown up by ams much more easily. Etc, etc.

#240 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:44 PM

View PostAbrahms, on 20 June 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

PGI is a scam. When they sold founder's packs, they assured players it wouldn't be pay2win.

It was not long until pay2win creeped in.

Now it is just blatant pay2win. Clan mechs, according to the game files, are indeed superior.

Additionally, if you bought MC for REAL MONEY, you still canNOT buy a clan mech. You have to let your MC rot and fork out absurd prices.

So essentially, for the next three months, MWO is indeed, VERY pay2win. Better mechs if you pay!!!

PGI is engrossed with fraud, misrepresentation, and incompetence. Fortunately for them, they only steal dollar amounts small enough (even $500 is small enough) that a lawsuit would not be worth it (and theyre in Canada).

I feel bad for new players that get stuck in this mess. Fortunately, the pay2win model is so off-putting and trial mechs are so bad that they may steer clear before wasting a penny on this mess.

View PostStraften, on 20 June 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

Yeah man, don't give up! Come back when the clanners have mastered their $240 package of mechs and are even more powerful than now, and try again. It's not about how many times you get cored, it's about picking yourself back up again, and running into the hail of fire so that the P2W guys can continue having fun.

Wait a second... ;)


ITT: Guys with crap jobs, an desire not to spend money on video games or an incomplete knowledge of how the game actually functions.

Oh, and whiners...lots of whiners.

Pay the money for the mechs or wait a few months until their free. Otherwise, STFU about your P2W nonsense.





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