123 replies to this topic

[SilentWolff]

Wintersdark, on 20 June 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

It has nothing to do with Elo. In fact, if it had to do with Elo, any given players position would be highly random, depending on the makeup of the team. This would be the case for everyone except those at the *very* top and bottom, a very small number of players.

Its seductive to believe that, but what happens is because typically (baring the matchmaker just making groups happen when its been looking for a long time) premade groups end up in alpha (solo pugs too, because not all groups are 4 man, Helen) ... Premade groups tend to perform better because communications and teamwork, so they'll usually show better.

Thus, people in premade groups like to believe that Alpha Lance is the High Elo lance.

We can agree to disagree. When I drop in a 4 man lance, we are Alpha 99.95% of the time. Its not a coincidence that's happening. Its also not a coincidence when I drop solo 99% of the time I'm never in Charlie lance. It has everything to do with ELo imo.

[Roadkill]

SilentWolff, on 20 June 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Its got everything to do with your ELO level.

It has nothing to do with your Elo rating.

Groups first, then fill in with solo. If you drop solo all the time and always end up in Alpha lance, it's just random chance. Despite much speculation, Alpha is NOT the high Elo players and Charlie is NOT the low Elo players. I've dominated matches while in Charlie and I've been crushed like a bug while in Alpha.

It might be first come, first served, with lower latency (not the same as ping) getting into Alpha more often than not. I base that only on personal experience - on nights when I seem to have good latency I also seem to get assigned to Alpha more often, and vice versa.

[SilentWolff]

Roadkill, on 20 June 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

It has nothing to do with your Elo rating.

Groups first, then fill in with solo. If you drop solo all the time and always end up in Alpha lance, it's just random chance. Despite much speculation, Alpha is NOT the high Elo players and Charlie is NOT the low Elo players. I've dominated matches while in Charlie and I've been crushed like a bug while in Alpha.

It might be first come, first served, with lower latency (not the same as ping) getting into Alpha more often than not. I base that only on personal experience - on nights when I seem to have good latency I also seem to get assigned to Alpha more often, and vice versa.

if this is true, than I would consistently be dropping in different lances, yet that isnt happening. Your theory doesnt hold water Im afraid.

[Deathlike]

Roadkill, on 20 June 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

It has nothing to do with your Elo rating.

It has almost everything to do with the Elo rating.

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Groups first, then fill in with solo. If you drop solo all the time and always end up in Alpha lance, it's just random chance. Despite much speculation, Alpha is NOT the high Elo players and Charlie is NOT the low Elo players. I've dominated matches while in Charlie and I've been crushed like a bug while in Alpha.

It's hard to explain this without charts and pictures, but the priority first and foremost is premade size. 4-mans > 3-mans > 2-mans > Solo. Solos fill in the spots depending on their actual Elo relative to ALL solos. Higher Elo premades of equal sizes get a priority as well.

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It might be first come, first served, with lower latency (not the same as ping) getting into Alpha more often than not. I base that only on personal experience - on nights when I seem to have good latency I also seem to get assigned to Alpha more often, and vice versa.

First come first served was a behavior BACK IN OPEN BETA, not so much now. With the MM adjustments and feedback (as minimal as it may be) has constructed teams at the same time now, instead of the previous method. However, often times I get into the game, the match immediately starts... although that's probably indicative of my slow system (still on Core 2 Quad, no SSD).

I have played a bunch of games with people I consider to be better than me (in translation, they have higher Elo) and often times we get placed in Alpha Lance like 99% of the time. If you ever get a chance to play with the Lords or other highly competitive teams just for a day, you will be almost guaranteed to be in Alpha Lance with them. Such things aren't random. If they were, I would have said that was the case.

[Sandpit]

As many have stated. Elo has nothing to do with lance placement. Charlie is perceived as low elo because generally that's an entire lance of pugs and their stats generally aren't as good at end of match.

On a sidenote. Discussions amd threads like this could easily be avoided if pgi ever bothered to, ya know, inform yheir player base instead of all the secrecy and "have we got a surprise for you" moments. How many fully launched title do you know of where the dev team is consistent and happy with keeping their entire community in the dark?

[Roadkill]

Deathlike, on 20 June 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

It's hard to explain this without charts and pictures, but the priority first and foremost is premade size. 4-mans > 3-mans > 2-mans > Solo. Solos fill in the spots depending on their actual Elo relative to ALL solos. Higher Elo premades of equal sizes get a priority as well.

I'm with you on all parts of that except for the Elo part. My experience just doesn't jive with it having anything to do with Elo. It correlates MUCH more closely with latency. I mean, I have carried the team from Charlie before. I'm talking seriously derpy behavior out of the rest of the team. If you were correct, that shouldn't be possible.

FWIW - I've noticed that most players who I consider to be very good also seem to have low latency. My latency seems to vary day-to-day, and on days when it's bad I tend to be in Charlie but on days when it's good I tend to be in Alpha.

[Creovex]

99% the time I drop solo in Alpha... rarely, and usually only when I see a 4 man premade do I not drop in Alpha.

[Fut]

Hellen Wheels, on 20 June 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Not for me. Doesn't matter what time, EU or Australasian prime or US prime.

99% Alpha lance, solo. Your mileage may vary.

I doubt it's 99% of the time.
This would mean that you practically never drop on a team that has a full 4-man group.

I get a good mix of Lances, but I find myself in Bravo more often than not.
Does anybody actually know how the MM picks the PUGs to throw into the Lances?

[Roadkill]

Deathlike, on 20 June 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

I have played a bunch of games with people I consider to be better than me (in translation, they have higher Elo) and often times we get placed in Alpha Lance like 99% of the time. If you ever get a chance to play with the Lords or other highly competitive teams just for a day, you will be almost guaranteed to be in Alpha Lance with them. Such things aren't random. If they were, I would have said that was the case.

We've been on the same team before when I think we were both pugging, but I've been in a "higher" lance. You're better than me (at least it seems like you are to me), so that shouldn't be possible if you're right about Elo.

[SilentWolff]

Sandpit, on 20 June 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

As many have stated. Elo has nothing to do with lance placement.

You can say it a thousand more times, still wont make it true. As has been mentioned in this thread, its too much of a coincidence that the great players are almost always placed in alpha lance. No argument made has yet to explain this away.

[Roadkill]

SilentWolff, on 20 June 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

You can say it a thousand more times, still wont make it true. As has been mentioned in this thread, its too much of a coincidence that the great players are almost always placed in alpha lance. No argument made has yet to explain this away.

Latency. The best players typically have good rigs and low latency as well.

You can deny it a thousand more times, too, and that won't make what you say true either. Nothing you've said explains how I can carry a team from Charlie lance while pugging.

But what it really comes down to is that we cannot know for sure unless PGI steps in and explains it.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 20 June 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

As many have stated. Elo has nothing to do with lance placement. Charlie is perceived as low elo because generally that's an entire lance of pugs and their stats generally aren't as good at end of match.

On a sidenote. Discussions amd threads like this could easily be avoided if pgi ever bothered to, ya know, inform yheir player base instead of all the secrecy and "have we got a surprise for you" moments. How many fully launched title do you know of where the dev team is consistent and happy with keeping their entire community in the dark?

Charlie "generally" assumes low Elo, but it's technically a misnomer. A fair portion of the time, a 2-man premade gets stuffed there when there are 3-man/4-mans occupying Alpha and Bravo. A "rare" portion of the time, a 3-man premade can be stuffed into Charlie. If you "know" there are 2 4-mans in your team, being in Charlie Lance does not imply "underhive". I've played in Charlie Lance a number of times... and although I'd like to consider myself "not underhive material" (although I die and do stupid things just as well), calling Charlie Lance "bad Elo" is a misnomer, based on team construction.

Roadkill, on 20 June 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

I'm with you on all parts of that except for the Elo part. My experience just doesn't jive with it having anything to do with Elo. It correlates MUCH more closely with latency. I mean, I have carried the team from Charlie before. I'm talking seriously derpy behavior out of the rest of the team. If you were correct, that shouldn't be possible.

FWIW - I've noticed that most players who I consider to be very good also seem to have low latency. My latency seems to vary day-to-day, and on days when it's bad I tend to be in Charlie but on days when it's good I tend to be in Alpha.

Just understand that it is ACTUALLY POSSIBLE to have two derpy 3-man/4-mans in Alpha and Bravo Lance where you playing solo in Charlie Lance looks like "godly amongst the men". That's how I look at Charlie Lance at times when I don't recognize names in Alpha+Bravo Lance.

[Lyoto Machida]

When I PUG, I'm rarely in Charlie lance unless there's two premades above. Not saying my ELO is spectacular or anything but I'm guessing I'm slightly above average based on w/l and k/d ratios.

[Roadkill]

Deathlike, on 20 June 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

A fair portion of the time, a 2-man premade gets stuffed {Charlie lance} when there are 3-man/4-mans occupying Alpha and Bravo.

Impossible! 84% of players drop solo, don't ya know.

[Deathlike]

Roadkill, on 20 June 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

We've been on the same team before when I think we were both pugging, but I've been in a "higher" lance. You're better than me (at least it seems like you are to me), so that shouldn't be possible if you're right about Elo.

Well, I don't play with you enough to get an accurate picture (it's hard to know right?)

Also, remember that there are 4 different Elo values, 1 for each weight class. Right now, I'm grinding Wolverines, and I'm taking hits on my Elo (losing a bit) so unless you KNOW what Elo you have (as in the actual number), you can only guess what levels people are based on THEIR CURRENT WEIGHT CLASS.

I'll see about searching through some matches and showing what I did in Charlie Lance if you'd like.

Also, I suggest this for people who don't wish to believe my explanation word for word... find a 3-man "respected team" that needs a 4th man. See if they will allow you to drop with them. See how often you are stuck in Alpha Lance. The results will shock you (or not, because I'm used to seeing this happen).

Edited by Deathlike, 20 June 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[Lostdragon]

WarHippy, on 20 June 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'm solo most of the time, and I very rarely drop in Charlie.



I have not seen that stated either, but in LoL first pick or in this case Alpha lance is the slightly higher Elo players and it goes down from there. So I suppose that might be a factor, but nothing I have seen states that.

I don't think this would be how it works for MWO. From how I understand it the MM starts with a target ELO and begins filling in players close to that ELO. As time goes on, the restrictions get looser. So to me, it would make sense that Charlie lance is typically going to have players that are both further above and below the ELO of Alpha and Bravo lance. I have noticed that when I have longer wait times I seem to end up in Charlie lance, which would correspond to this theory.

[WarHippy]

Roadkill, on 20 June 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

We've been on the same team before when I think we were both pugging, but I've been in a "higher" lance. You're better than me (at least it seems like you are to me), so that shouldn't be possible if you're right about Elo.

That would depend on the spread in Elo from Alpha to Charlie. If the spread is only 10 points the skill difference between Alpha and Charlie is so small they might as well be the same even if technically Alpha is higher in Elo. Those times you launched higher than him might be because you had a few good games in a row and he had a few bad ones allowing you for that point in time to surpass him in Elo earning a higher seat even if only for that one game. Assuming Elo plays a role it doesn't mean Charlie are less skilled it just means they are slightly lower in Elo than those in Alpha at the time of launch. This is not to say that Elo has anything to do with placement here, but it certainly might, we just don't know because PGI seems to be afraid of giving any info on how it all works.

[Roadkill]

Deathlike, on 20 June 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Well, I don't play with you enough to get an accurate picture (it's hard to know right?)

Yep, it's tough to know any of this for sure.

Quote

Also, remember that there are 4 different Elo values, 1 for each weight class.

Are you sure about that?

It was supposed to be that way, and in fact everyone assumed that's exactly how it worked (because we were told that's what they were going to do), but then I recall seeing someone admit that they never got around to implementing it. Can't remember if that was a tweet or a VLOG or whatever.

So then we were told again that they were going to reinstate that plan for CW... but CW isn't here yet, so why should we assume that Elo per weight class is?

Oddly, the addition of the Clans has made all of this tougher to figure out because of the large influx of new (or long break) players cluttering up the patterns we were used to seeing.

[Joseph Mallan]

Funny. the other day I was in Alpha Lance multiple times as a PUG. Does it really matter which lance you are in if you are PUGging? Be honest.

[Bilbo]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 June 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

Funny. the other day I was in Alpha Lance multiple times as a PUG. Does it really matter which lance you are in if you are PUGging? Be honest.

No. I can't really think of a reason it might matter when I'm not.