148 replies to this topic

[Allen Ward]

1453 R, on 20 June 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Okay. Thought experiment.

Let’s assume for a moment that all of you get just exactly what you want.

Clan lasers gain 60% increased heat over current levels, the CERSL gets bumped down to 3 damage, and their beam times are drawn out to 1.5s for the CERSL, 2s for the ERML and 3S for the ERLL. 1.3s for the CSPL, 1.8s for the CMPL and 2.8s for the CLPL, just to ensure that there’s no option anywhere whatsoever for short-duration Clan lasers, and also they generate more heat than C-ERPPCs.

Except we also add 5 heat to the already brutal 15 of the C-ERPPC, making it 20 heat per shot and ensuring only one can ever be fired at a time, and also cutting 5 damage out of the pinpoint section of the shot and thusly making it 5 impact and 5 arcing damage.

The charge delay for the C-gauss is doubled over the IS Gauss, and the C-Gauss deals 3x the explosion damage of the IS Gauss, ignoring the Clans’ integrated CASE.

Clan missile ammunition per ton is cut in half, and Clan missiles themselves lose half their missile HP, rendering them twice as vulnerable to AMS even before streaming effects. Clan Streak launcher cycle times are increased to a flat 10s per launcher, regardless of tube counts, and also gain the jam chance Paul had initially mentioned way back in the day.

Clan UACs jam on every single double shot, period, bar none, and gain double the burst count they have now, but at no actual increase to burst speed, meaning the effective ‘burn time’ for Clan autocannons is doubled. No additional ammunition is added to account for the increased burst size, effectively halving all CUAC and CAC autocannon ammo counts.

Clan LBX autocannons now fire in bursts, with their burst counts identical to the current C-UAC burst counts of the same cannon grade, save that each shell in the burst is still a shotgun-style spread shot.

Clan machine guns are removed from the game altogether, and any ‘Mech that equips them in its stock configuration gets empty space/weight where those machine guns used to be. The ballistic hardpoints these M-guns used to offer are removed from their respective omnipods.

Clan ‘Mechs are isolated from the IS ‘Mechs in the queue and are dropped 5v12, a single Star vs. an Inner Sphere company, and start the match in the center of any given map, with the IS lances surrounding them on three sides. As well, 3/3/3/3 doesn’t apply to matches against Clan ‘Mechs – there are no tonnage or weight class restrictions against the Clans.

Clan pilots are also struck with steep C-bill penalties for not adhering to Zellbrigen during matches – fight like an Inner Sphere pilot and even if you win, your match earnings are down below 50k C-bills due to violation penalties for not engaging strictly in a series of honor duels, one-on-however-many-IS-pilots-think-you-have-a-pretty-mouth.



Let’s assume for a moment that all of this happens, that every single terrible idea, rage-fueled spazzout, and panic-stricken PGI PLZ NERF posted in the last week makes it into the game. What does this do to MWO, what does this do to the players, and what does it do to the Commodity warfare Everyone© is so incredibly eager for them to put out? Where do we go, after The Community (except for the N.O.P.E. guys, who don’t care because they want the entire game to fail anyways) makes absolutely sure that the evil, looming phantasm of PEE TWO DOUBLEYOU has been thoroughly eradicated from their beloved game?

Hmm…wait. Are those accusations of hyperbole and grandstanding I hear?

FUNNY HOW THAT SOUNDS, INNIT?

All hyperbole and grandstanding aside…shut your blasted claps for a month and wait. See how things shake out, see what sort of builds and tactics develop. Metas don’t mutate overnight, answers aren’t found in an hour. This is the biggest single features release since the game became playable – did you really think it wasn’t going to be a wild ride? Either sit down, strap in, and enjoy the rumble, or take a damn break already!

If people wait...who plays then?

shadN, on 30 June 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

This thread is going OT! Can't allow for that to happen.

1. If You don't want to spend money on mechs then just don't. But stop complaining about certain clan mechs being stronger than IS *****.

2. Why don't you just get a decent paying job!? 200 bucks is roughly 2 days of work or less. Shouldn't be a problem, right? Then you can buy clantech too and stop complaining.

3. So PGI is a Company trying to earn money. Whoa, stop it. Maybe the NOPE ppl just can't understand that because they don't earn decent money. Then just get yourself a job and buy clantech!!!!

4. Plus, 240 bucks for a game like MWO is absolutely not too expensive considering the work that PGI invested until now. Just buy clan mechs and stop complaining!!!

ignorant

[Wintersdark]

Vercinaigh, on 30 June 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

those lasers also do more damage per tick than is, too. So matter how long you held the laser on, IS held for the same time does less damage. Their uac's have much higher DPS, aswell, the only thing they can't do with ac's is jump snipe, lol. Plus clan XL's....I dunno how much more obvious it has to be...

DPS is a largely meaningless stat, as it's extremely rare to get more than a second to continuously output damage to a specific body point.

There's a reason IS Lasers are where pretty rare in higher end play (lights excluded), even before the Clan mechs.

UAC's having higher DPS isn't an advantage, when the AC's can punch holes in specific body points while twisting to spread the UAC's return damage all over their mech. The AC's, then, just need to go through a side torso or CT, while the UAC needs to burn through what amounts to the whole damn mech.

Seriously, damage over time is garbage, because it's only useful against really poor opponents who'll allow you to do it. If you play exclusively in The Underhive, where people will just stare at each other firing until one of them dies, well... yeah, the Clan mechs will win out in that. But those people have an option: Learn to not be terrible.

Edit: And no, I'm not advocating everyone sell their souls and go all PPC/AC builds. But there's a world of space between poptarting and just facehumping everyone to death.

Edited by Wintersdark, 30 June 2014 - 01:22 PM.

[1453 R]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 30 June 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Interesting to see that the "IS players suck and have no idea what balance is" straw man circlejerk actually turned into a discussion with valid arguments on both sides. Mind blown.

I detect an open clap! ATTN, Ragnar!

Also, seriously. Seriously. Point to one place where I’ve made the (entirely and maliciously incorrect and uninformed) assertion that anyone without a Clan pack is a drooling simpleton without the faintest level of comprehension. I have not made that assertion at any time. This thread is me telling everyone – everyone – to WAIT A DAMN MINUTE and not knee-jerk giganerf ALL DA THINGZ. Give it some time, see what happens and what falls out. As intelligent players on both sides of the Berlin Pay Wall have pointed out several times, Clan balancing is, for the most part, surprisingly spot-on. The C-ERSL could use an extra point of heat, and frankly I like the notion of the ISML going down a heat point rather than doing anything to the C-ERML. That way yes, the C-ERML does its .38 more damage per tic than an IS beam, but the IS beam does its damage for significantly less heat per tic, which lets it take more overall shots than the Clan lasers get. The Clanbeams deal excellent damage if held on target properly, but if held on target improperly they quickly start losing a lot of ground against the more heat-efficient IS options.

The C-ERPPC is fine. The C-Gauss is fine – I’d rather see the IS Gauss pumped up a bit, honestly. If the jump jet fixes, against all reason and expectation, actually curbs toaster pastry shenanigans, I’d say go ahead and cut the charge cycle off the IS-Gauss again, leave it in place for the Clans. Those extra three tons pay for more robust coils that can handle the charge better.

That’s honestly all you’d need to do right off the bat, then see how those changes shake out – but is that all people are asking for?

NOOOOOOOOOOOO, SIRREE.

People want the Timber Wolf’s mobility Giganerfed the same way they pillaged the Victor’s agility. I’ve seen people suggest the same thing for the Stormcrow. THE STORMCROW. People want every armed pod on the Dire Whale to generate some stupidly high heat penalty, or increase its cooldowns by 50% or some other dumb number. People want Clan ammo slashed. People want Clan autocannons’ burst durations increased.

In short, people want all the dumb scheiss I listed in my original post in this thread, which basically amounts to Piranha nerfing the Clans into complete and utter worthlessness. Except they don’t What they really want, what this entire s***storm is about?

“I wanna play with the shiny new toys, too! Why can’t I have fun in the new stuff without vomiting up money like a bulimic at Thanksgiving?!”

Which is a valid topic of conversation. SO DISCUSS THAT, instead of trying to get the Clans VTR-level Giganerfed or worse just so that you can feel better for a few months! After all, within a few months any whiny bullshyte nerfs you force Piranha to instate now are going to be biting YOU in the behindus, too!

Edited by 1453 R, 30 June 2014 - 01:58 PM.

[TheFlannelBeard]

Wintersdark, on 30 June 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

But there's a world of space between poptarting and just facehumping everyone to death.

/end thread, poptarting referenced, everyone grab your **** and hunker down...

[Allen Ward]

Clan tech outclasses IS tech, there is nothing wrong with it. The problem is, that IS has no means to react to Clan teams in PUG. Maybe in team matches where people can plan and bring mechs and weapons that work well together, along with a tactic they try to use. No way in PUG. It would have helped if PGI had released only light and medium clan mechs now. They didn't and now we have to deal with teams of 5 Timbers, 2 Dire Wolves, and a few Lights. Not the problem of weapons or individual chassis.

[TheFlannelBeard]

1453 R, on 30 June 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

I’ve made the (sic) assertion that anyone without a Clan pack is a drooling simpleton without the faintest level of comprehension.

There. Now you have.

Just kidding, kidding.

Edited by TheFlannelBeard, 30 June 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[Roland]

Gyrok, on 30 June 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

I have no issue with them coming out for cbills, at all. Just not yet. We paid for early access. PERIOD.

Temporary P2W is still P2W. This is the problem here. If you have the best heavy chassis behind a paywall, the fact that it someday won't be behind the paywall any more doesn't actually change anything.

Quote

Otherwise, nothing else we got is worth terribly much. Sure some mech bays, and a bit of premium time, woo...that is not $240 worth though. Additionally, the one module everyone wanted came with gold mechs, so I had to pay the GXP and buy it anyway...even after dropping $240. If Joe Q Public can buy them now for cbills, honestly, I would imagine the players asking for a refund would probably cripple the studio and the publisher.

I wouldn't ask for a refund at all. You still get the benefit of like a billion mechbays (which cost real money), and the CBill equivalent of all those mechs... which, as part of my recommendation, would be IMMENSE. Like, way way way more than if you actually just bought CBills with that money.

Imagine, for instance, if all the clan mechs cost a hundred million CBills or more. Now, there are certainly some folks who have that many CBills, but MOST people who bought the clanmechs aren't sitting on the 2.4 billion CBills it would require to purchase all of those mechs. Your $240 would have bought you an immense amount of convenience.

Now, of course, that price is higher than I think it should be for a clan light mech, but please try to understand the key point here that if made available for CBills at this point, PGI could have that CBill price be very, very high compared to normal mech prices.. Then, after a few months, they could potentially lower the CBill cost to more reasonable rates. You could even work this into a story-based explanation, where Clan mechs and salvage are extremely rare at this point, IS techs don't know how to work with them, blah blah blah whatever.

The net effect though is that you eliminate the argument for P2W, and thus reduce the requirement to nerf any clan mech which is better than other existing mechs.

The same kind of thing could go for Hero mechs as well, honestly.

Quote

You have an established model, the phoenix package. Deviating from that model at this point would break the established expectations of the players who paid.

The phoenix package had universally weak mechs, which is why this issue didn't come up once the mechs hit the field. The only mech in that package which is even competitive is the Shadowhawk, and since its a medium it's inherently not a gamechanger.

You're not being rational if you believe that anything that is done in the future has to conform with things that were done in the past, because that road leads to stagnation and repeated mistakes.

Quote

This is basically a bunch of people crying that they cannot have them now for free...when they absolutely should not have them now for free.

This is a strawman, as no one is suggesting that anyone get anything for free. Please try to understand this, as it's critical to understanding the whole discussion.

Quote

I would be ok with releasing them for MC right now if they were $50 worth of MC per 3 variants and you had to buy all 3 variants for MC. Totally cool with that...

Releasing things for MC is pointless, because MC is a paywall. This misses the point.

Quote

release them for cbills and make TWs 250 mil cbills each...ok...cool with that too...I suppose. It means that no one who is whining would have them though, so why even bother?

Because it gives people a WAY to get them. It eliminates the P2W argument entirely... Because you no longer have to pay real world money to get anything. You just have to WORK for it..And tons of folks will probably rather pay money for it and save themselves the time. But the important point is that you are giving the player the OPTION to do this, if they so choose.

And if you are fine with it, then that's cool.. Then there's no argument.

Personally, as someone with clan mechs, this choice is preferable to a permanent nerf, which is likely to be the alternative option.

[Corbon Zackery]

Right now I have seen 4 Dire wolfs all with ultra 5, 10 setups and not one shot is jamming. Wednesday the Clans get the targeting computers which give them near 100% 1 critical rate. Also decreases the jam rate of ultra AC.

I don't know if its a written macro but when 2 Dire Wolf with ultra that don't jam take out 7 guys its a bit op.

I'm not saying its op. yet but critical rates are way to high with high damage weapons like gauss and AC 20 and way to low for MG and SRM.

That's my 2 cents right now.

The fact that PGI is catering to that 1% of the community who throws money at them like hot little poll dancers. Is slightly annoying.

I would also like all my 3050 IS weapons please that would include:

ER M.lasers
ER S. lasers
Ultra 2
Ultra 10
Ultra 20
LBX 2
LBX 5
LBX 20
Streak 4
Streak 6

The Inner sphere seems to be missing some weapons.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 30 June 2014 - 02:01 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Vercinaigh, on 30 June 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

those lasers also do more damage per tick than is, too. So matter how long you held the laser on, IS held for the same time does less damage. Their uac's have much higher DPS, aswell, the only thing they can't do with ac's is jump snipe, lol. Plus clan XL's....I dunno how much more obvious it has to be...

yeap, all that too

[Allen Ward]

Corbon Zackery, on 30 June 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Right now I have seen 4 Dire wolfs all with ultra 5, 10 setups and not one shot is jamming. Wednesday the Clans get the targeting computers which give them near 100% 1 critical rate. Also decreases the jam rate of ultra AC.

I don't know if its a written macro but when 2 Dire Wolf with ultra that don't jam take out 7 guys its a bit op.


I'm not saying its op. yet but critical rates are way to high with high damage weapons like gauss and AC 20 and way to low for MG and SRM.

That's my 2 cents right now.

I have watched Dire Wolf with 4 Ultra Ac10s several times, bringing some 600 shots of ammo. He NEVER jammed, and had Zero cooling issues. He was slow as hell, but whatever popped up before him went down after 2 dakka dakka salvos. My Misery (XL 310 because I have to bring some weapons after all to compete) dies within 2 seconds versus a single Clan Ultra Ac20 hitting my side torso.

[Perilthecat]

Allen Ward, on 30 June 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I have watched Dire Wolf with 4 Ultra Ac10s several times, bringing some 600 shots of ammo. He NEVER jammed, and had Zero cooling issues. He was slow as hell, but whatever popped up before him went down after 2 dakka dakka salvos. My Misery (XL 310 because I have to bring some weapons after all to compete) dies within 2 seconds versus a single Clan Ultra Ac20 hitting my side torso.

What maps did you run into this on? I'm going to build it out and test it on Testing Grounds to see if it works as you described.

[wolf74]

Corbon Zackery, on 30 June 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

I would also like all my 3050 IS weapons please that would include:

ER M.lasers
ER S. lasers
Ultra 2
Ultra 10
Ultra 20
LBX 2
LBX 5
LBX 20
Streak 4
Streak 6

The Inner sphere seems to be missing some weapons.

Let us take a Look at the list of weapons you have there and when they came in to Play for the I.S.
3058 ER M.lasers (Free Worlds League 1st)
3058 ER S. lasers (Free Worlds League 1st)
3057 Ultra 2 (Free Worlds League 1st)
3057 Ultra 10 (Free Worlds League 1st)
3060 Ultra 20 (Lyran Alliance 1st)
3058 LBX 2 (Federated Suns 1st)
3058 LBX 5 (Federated Suns 1st)
3058 LBX 20 (Federated Suns 1st)
3058 Streak 4 (Draconis Combine 1st)
3058 Streak 6 (Draconis Combine 1st)

By 1st I mean that is the House that Got the Weapon in use, the Other House would slow get access to them from the above dates.

[IraqiWalker]

Ragnar Darkmane, on 30 June 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Interesting to see that the "IS players suck and have no idea what balance is" straw man circlejerk actually turned into a discussion with valid arguments on both sides. Mind blown.

I still play mostly IS mechs, and I still hold the argument that the biggest problem most people are running into is their lack of flexibility and adaptation to new variables. It's not that the equipment is OP (it's not), so much as people don't like changing their Modus Operandi and adapting to the new battlefield. Take that argument as you will.

Corbon Zackery, on 30 June 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Right now I have seen 4 Dire wolfs all with ultra 5, 10 setups and not one shot is jamming. Wednesday the Clans get the targeting computers which give them near 100% 1 critical rate. Also decreases the jam rate of ultra AC.

I don't know if its a written macro but when 2 Dire Wolf with ultra that don't jam take out 7 guys its a bit op.

I'm not saying its op. yet but critical rates are way to high with high damage weapons like gauss and AC 20 and way to low for MG and SRM.

That's my 2 cents right now.

The fact that PGI is catering to that 1% of the community who throws money at them like hot little poll dancers. Is slightly annoying.

I would also like all my 3050 IS weapons please that would include:

ER M.lasers
ER S. lasers
Ultra 2
Ultra 10
Ultra 20
LBX 2
LBX 5
LBX 20
Streak 4
Streak 6

The Inner sphere seems to be missing some weapons.

I personally think that the UACs should have scaling jam rates (UAC20 with 18% jam rate for example)

As for those weapons. Pretty much almost all of them are 3058 or 3057. None of them are here yet.

Allen Ward, on 30 June 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I have watched Dire Wolf with 4 Ultra Ac10s several times, bringing some 600 shots of ammo. He NEVER jammed, and had Zero cooling issues. He was slow as hell, but whatever popped up before him went down after 2 dakka dakka salvos. My Misery (XL 310 because I have to bring some weapons after all to compete) dies within 2 seconds versus a single Clan Ultra Ac20 hitting my side torso.

Have you tried this setup?

No I'm not trying to do a "I can teach you how to pilot your mech better than you do" thing here. Just asking if you tried it.

[Wintersdark]

Allen Ward, on 30 June 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I have watched Dire Wolf with 4 Ultra Ac10s several times, bringing some 600 shots of ammo. He NEVER jammed, and had Zero cooling issues. He was slow as hell, but whatever popped up before him went down after 2 dakka dakka salvos. My Misery (XL 310 because I have to bring some weapons after all to compete) dies within 2 seconds versus a single Clan Ultra Ac20 hitting my side torso.

Perilthecat, on 30 June 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

What maps did you run into this on? I'm going to build it out and test it on Testing Grounds to see if it works as you described.

Doesn't work that way.

4 UAC10's is a very brutal build for a Direwolf, and easy enough to never jam: UAC's only jam if you're firing them within the cooldown (despite what people like to believe) so it's pretty trivial to simply not doubletap if you don't want to.

You can chainfire them as well, given a 2.5s cooldown, a .5s burst you can fire them nearly constantly chainfired which looks pretty dramatic.

If you fire them all at once AND doubletap, that's the only way you need to worry about heat, and you absolutely can and will jam them.


As to the Misery, don't run Stalkers with XL's. Arguing you're running with an XL because you want more guns to "compete" is foolish - it doesn't matter how many guns you're packing when you're killed in short order.

You can easily carry enough weaponry to compete in a Misery. For example: MISERY50 point alpha, can hillsnipe with the PPC's, can take a hell of a beating - lose either side torso and retain at least a 20pt alpha.

Edited by Wintersdark, 30 June 2014 - 03:32 PM.

[Wabbit Swaya]

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:26 AM by Gorantir
"I think the biggest problem in MWO is not balance,its selecting a mech before you know the map.if you knew you were dropping on alpine you wouldnt bring your close range mech,or your energy alpha mech to terra therma.dropping in a match now is like an episode of lost in space."

As long as I'm in the lance with Judy and Penny, and not the lance with Dr. Smith I'll be Okay.

[1453 R]

Some players actually consider that a benefit/feature of the game, rather than a drawback. You shouldn't know just exactly where/what you'll be fighting unless you're a planetary militia or garrison - which would mean you never fight anywhere else.

Besides. Do you really want to see people take 'Mechs specifically designed for each and every map into the game? We have enough troubles with min/maxing now...

[TheFlannelBeard]

Roland, on 30 June 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

Temporary P2W is still P2W. This is the problem here. If you have the best heavy chassis behind a paywall, the fact that it someday won't be behind the paywall any more doesn't actually change anything.

Please explain to me how one of the easiest-to-kill clan mechs is p2w. Please. We all would really like to know your stream of thoughts towards this subject.

[Tovan Cassidine]

Corbenik, on 20 June 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

Teamwork is OP lets Nerf that some more D:

I also heard that aiming is OP. It should be nerfed and soon! Teamwork and aiming: two things that will destroy your tactical combat simulator every time.

In all seriousness, the Clan mechs are fine. I do not mind going up against them. I have no interest in owning one. I do want their weapon sounds, though.

[Perilthecat]

Wintersdark, on 30 June 2014 - 03:26 PM, said:

Doesn't work that way.

4 UAC10's is a very brutal build for a Direwolf, and easy enough to never jam: UAC's only jam if you're firing them within the cooldown (despite what people like to believe) so it's pretty trivial to simply not doubletap if you don't want to.

You can chainfire them as well, given a 2.5s cooldown, a .5s burst you can fire them nearly constantly chainfired which looks pretty dramatic.

If you fire them all at once AND doubletap, that's the only way you need to worry about heat, and you absolutely can and will jam them.


As to the Misery, don't run Stalkers with XL's. Arguing you're running with an XL because you want more guns to "compete" is foolish - it doesn't matter how many guns you're packing when you're killed in short order.

You can easily carry enough weaponry to compete in a Misery. For example: MISERY50 point alpha, can hillsnipe with the PPC's, can take a hell of a beating - lose either side torso and retain at least a 20pt alpha.

I know. You're preaching to the choir, but since I don't have experience with this setup I didn't feel confident making a comment on the cooling efficiency of the build. And thus not able to confirm or challenge the validity of the "no cooling issues" claim.

To say nothing of the actual damage capability of the build. As you said it probably looks very impressive, but how does a bystander gauge the destructive capability? Could be any number of factors. Lots of guns doesn't necessarily equal performance.

Quiaff? ;P

[Tovan Cassidine]

Atheus, on 20 June 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

I doubt anyone cares that much that clans are OP. Everyone expected that. Everyone who is familiar with the game's history is comfortable with that. One problem is that they're OP, PLUS they're behind a big honkin' pay wall.

So, you want to play a game for free, but get upset when others are comfortable actually paying for their gaming experience? PGI is a business, not a social program. Businesses exist to make money. Selling Clan mechs and packages, Hero mechs, Champion mechs, premium game time, camo patterns, colors, and all that other stuff is how PGI stays in business, which allowed them, in turn, to allow you and people like you to play for free. Nothing one can buy in the store makes one a better pilot or gives one an advantage that unbalances the game in any way.

I will reiterate: Clan mechs are fine and do not need any "balancing." We IS pilots can kill them. They can kill us. That is a pretty good balance. All their shiny toys do not make them better pilots and do not give them sudden tactical insight. That's what matters.

Edited by Tovan Cassidine, 30 June 2014 - 05:00 PM.