894 replies to this topic

[Serpieri]

Armored Yokai, on 22 June 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Using Cheap meta builds to win that tournament i rather think that win was not deserved it should have been stock only.

Now that would of been a tournament - I would have watched.

[Mystere]

Pygar, on 22 June 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you here- but I just wanted to point out a common contradiction I see in balance discussions here...because I frequently see people say these same two things within a few posts of each other.

1. The Victor is arguably the best mech in the game

and

2. The Victor was unfairly nerfed and nerfed sooooooooooooooooooooo haaaaaaard.

-----------

Pick one....only one of those two statements can be true. (I vote #1, since the Victor is one of the best if not arguably the best IS mech, despite being given a good spanking with the nerf bat already.)

I will use your very own words to show that you yourself have done the same thing:

"the Victor is one of the best if not arguably the best IS mech"

and

"despite being given a good spanking with the nerf bat already".

[Abivard]

HEY!

Let us hijack this thread and actually discuss if it is possible to balance weapons so that there is no over riding meta.

Yes it is possible I contend, but it would involve hard choices I do not believe PGI is capable of making.

Laser duration for example, contrary to the OP's initial troll post, laser duration's need to be shortened across the board to bring them into balance with FLD weapons.

LRM's need to be addressed from the upper levels of play not the lower. Tutorials need to be used to educate new players about things like LRM's and ghost heat ad naseum,

The fact that most weapon systems are not usable in advanced play indicates more a failure of those weapons than that others are OP, but not always, and that is the case with the present IS meta of PPC/AC.

[xMintaka]

Pygar, on 22 June 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

I'm not exactly disagreeing with you here- but I just wanted to point out a common contradiction I see in balance discussions here...because I frequently see people say these same two things in either the same post or within a few posts of each other.

1. The Victor is arguably the best mech in the game

and

2. The Victor was unfairly nerfed and nerfed sooooooooooooooooooooo haaaaaaard.

-----------

Pick one....only one of those two statements can be true. (I vote #1, since the Victor is one of the best if not arguably the best IS mech, despite being given a good spanking with the nerf bat already.)

The Victor is arguably the best mech in the game, for the current meta.
But I feel it was unfairly nerfed, as those nerfs did nothing to dispel its supremacy as a poptart. The only thing that was nerfed was jump brawling Victors. That is why I feel it was unfair, the "nerf" just solidified the VTR line as the optimal poptart.

[Black Arachne]

JohnSoloman, on 22 June 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

With out a hard point restriction system akin to MW4, this is going to be the name of the game.

Welcome to closed beta.

If we could restrict people from putting PPC into a Mlas or LL mount point you would never see this. Nor would we have had to deal with Gausscats. It would also breathe fresh life into lights and other mechs such as the Awesome.

Ghost heat wouldn't even need to be around any more.

Ghost Heat has to go - hard point restriction is the better option. Giving mechs almost unlimited customization was a huge mistake. Also add the burst mechanics to IS AC's - TTK needs to be increased - game still plays like Call of Mechwarrior - where everyone targets the CT - central mass just like in every FPS game which doesn't work for Battletech - since it has hit locations.

.

[Pygar]

Mystere, on 22 June 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

I will use your very own words to show that you yourself have done the same thing:

"the Victor is one of the best if not arguably the best IS mech"

and

"despite being given a good spanking with the nerf bat already".

Am just trying to point out that if they can nerf something, and it's still really good- then yeah, it was probably OP before the nerf, and henceforth the nerf was warranted.. And especially with the Victor I hear pilots try to make it sound like it got nerfed into total uselessness ALL THE TIME here...usually followed by how it's still one of the four or five "L2 Hump Meta or GTFO" mechs.

[Sug]

Awesome post OP.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

there's a good reason competent developers never listen to their player base unless the words they say correlates with incoming statistics data on the developer end. Even then there is a testing phase to figure out what does and doesn't work before it goes to supertest or whatever.

I guess what I'm saying is, op had an interesting post but I also think on the most part he's full of **** which could be contributed to my own personal bias of some kind. I really don't care beyond how annoying it is to me that people are whining this quickly even though 5 days is not a large enough or quality enough sample to evaluate balance changes. Would not be surprised if any sort of reworks will be put off until the end of the year and more good players actually start getting their hands on them.

If anything, a perception of the timber being op just makes pgi more sales and there's no Real reason to change it at this time as people who are complaining are still playing. This is why I said earlier there's no real reason to address an issue unless its driving away business because by fixing something that isn't broken in terms of the business model can actually drive away business. I guess you can contribute the whining to a society that gets incredibly offended over first world problems when meanwhile people in third world countries are sifting through trash as we speak so they can make enough money to feed themselves.

So instead of being mad the game doesn't conform specifically to your desires so you don't have to make an effort to play the game, take up the challenge instead and play the ******* game.

Pygar, on 22 June 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

WTB: Smoke Dispensers- Highly spammable walls of thick smoke that make it so direct fire mechs cannot aim properly, see which direction you are moving, or see how many buddies you have moving with you.

what about directional flash device to disorient mechs locking you? mechs should also have flares, smoke charges that also eject chaff with hot smoke, and a counter tag system. Why not a sound laser while we're at it? you hit their cockpit with it and it vibrates the glass in such a way that disorients the pilot.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 22 June 2014 - 12:33 PM.

[JohnSoloman]

Serpieri, on 22 June 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Now that would of been a tournament - I would have watched.

Not really, you just pick the stock that is meta compliant.

[Mystere]

Abivard, on 22 June 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

HEY!

Let us hijack this thread and actually discuss if it is possible to balance weapons so that there is no over riding meta.

Yes it is possible I contend, but it would involve hard choices I do not believe PGI is capable of making.

Laser duration for example, contrary to the OP's initial troll post, laser duration's need to be shortened across the board to bring them into balance with FLD weapons.

LRM's need to be addressed from the upper levels of play not the lower. Tutorials need to be used to educate new players about things like LRM's and ghost heat ad naseum,

The fact that most weapon systems are not usable in advanced play indicates more a failure of those weapons than that others are OP, but not always, and that is the case with the present IS meta of PPC/AC.

As you wish:

• Make all ACs burst fire
  
• Make all PPCs do splash damage
  
• Give all missiles the speed of Hellfires (i.e. 450m/s)
  
• Make all missiles stream like Katyushas
  
• Restore all armor values to original
  
• Restore all ammo values to original

And that's just for starters.


<mostly tongue-in-cheek ... but with "mostly" as the operative word >

[Pygar]

WTB: Smoke Dispensers- Highly spammable walls of thick smoke that make it so direct fire mechs cannot aim properly, see which direction you are moving, or see how many buddies you have moving with you.

And that is really the only other positive thing I can add. All the rest of the +1 to this -1 to that ideas for direct fire weapons will not really change anything about overall "balance" at either the higher ELO or lower ELO ends of the game.

And yeah, on second thought, lets leave the T-wolf alone.....is it giving the CTF and VTR pilots a run for their money? Aaaaaaaawwwwwww gee shucky darns....that must be so terrible for the "Hump Meta or GTFO" crowd to have to deal with.

Edited by Pygar, 22 June 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[JohnSoloman]

Black Arachne, on 22 June 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Ghost Heat has to go - hard point restriction is the better option. Giving mechs almost unlimited customization was a huge mistake. Also add the burst mechanics to IS AC's - TTK needs to be increased - game still plays like Call of Mechwarrior - where everyone targets the CT - central mass just like in every FPS game which doesn't work for Battletech - since it has hit locations.

.

It would also make Small weapons viable, currently there is no reason to use small lasers over a large one. Because each weapon takes up 1 mount period. But if you could put in more small lasers over a medium or a large it would not only be viable but allow better close range dps and sustainable under heat.

Large laser does nine damage, at the cost of serious heat for its range. But if you could use 3 small lasers in the place of a large that would equal the same damage but at pointblank range with less tons for extra speed. This would make for a good atlas that can lose the distance in a rush and fire his smalls repeatedly.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Now that I've typed what I feel like I know best about this game, what do you think about it? What should happen to missiles? Which 'Mech quirks and loadouts are overpowered to you? How do you think things are currently stacking up?

First, I'd consider getting IS Medium Lasers back down to 3 heat and MPLs to 4. If necessary set ghost heat at 4 on MLs and 3 on MPLs if deemed necessary as a tradeoff.

I'd like to see SRMs get a speed bump from 300 up to 425 also.

Clan and IS Gauss could be made into a hypersonic dakka weapon. Keep the 4 DPS, remove the charge up, reduce the damage per projectile (10 damage or even 5 damage), reduce cooldown (2.50 or 1.25 depending on damage), up the ammo to stay at 150 damage per ton.

I'd also consider having IS Ballistics also see the same done as Gauss to reduce FLD, but keep their DPS.

Spoiler

PPCs with their heat and then not being able to synergize as easily with ballistics might be enough for them with maybe a cooldown increase up to 5 seconds from the current.

Lastly I'd like to see how LRMs could work with a higher velocity in exchange for a diminishing arc the farther the target is, so that more existing cover can protect from indirect LRM fire, forcing those mechs to get in closer if they want to hit with LRMs.

Spoiler

I'd also look at normalizing LRM cooldown so that any barrage from an LRM 5 to an LRM 20 would be at 5.00 seconds or so (could go higher possibly), and I'd reduce their impulse along with having them do 1 damage each missile and use the SSRM bone structure. Along with reducing ammo from 180 back to 120 that could make LRMs more interesting at least.

[Aresye]

As much as I'd like to say this post appears unbiased, it's hard to overlook the fact that the game finally has "somewhat" of a counter to the poptarting meta via the Timberwolf, and all I see are calls to nerf the Timberwolf by a poptarting meta player from a group of trolls that enjoying rolling pugs with Dragon Slayers and arty strikes.

You know what I've seen? I've seen you competitive types STRUGGLING to get the poptart meta to work with the Timberwolf, commonly being outclassed by non-meta Timberwolves who can repel the 2PPC,Gauss combo that most of you seem to have gravitated towards. Bonus that the Timberwolf can also put out enough DPS to give poptarting Dragon Slayers a good fight for their money.

You also want to buff IS ACs and have the Clan ACs fire less shells (aka closer to FLD)? Given that most of the competitive players I've recognized have been trying to build Clan mechs as close to the PP FLD builds of their IS counterparts, this doesn't really surprise me.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Aresye, on 22 June 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

As much as I'd like to say this post appears unbiased, it's hard to overlook the fact that the game finally has "somewhat" of a counter to the poptarting meta via the Timberwolf, and all I see are calls to nerf the Timberwolf by a poptarting meta player from a group of trolls that enjoying rolling pugs with Dragon Slayers and arty strikes.

You know what I've seen? I've seen you competitive types STRUGGLING to get the poptart meta to work with the Timberwolf, commonly being outclassed by non-meta Timberwolves who can repel the 2PPC,Gauss combo that most of you seem to have gravitated towards. Bonus that the Timberwolf can also put out enough DPS to give poptarting Dragon Slayers a good fight for their money.

You also want to buff IS ACs and have the Clan ACs fire less shells (aka closer to FLD)? Given that most of the competitive players I've recognized have been trying to build Clan mechs as close to the PP FLD builds of their IS counterparts, this doesn't really surprise me.

I kill so many poptarts with my lpl now. they pop up, get lpl's, and 30 lrm's that come crashing down because i dont need a lock to hit somebody recovering from freefall. I laugh so hard when i see clan mechs poptarting, sometimes I can even dispense a whole uac20 into them when the invisible terrain force fields don't eat my shots.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 22 June 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[Eximar]

They just need to make IS AC's burst fire with noticeably faster fire and noticeably more damage per shot to offset the clans weight and bulk advantage.

[Abivard]

How about screen shake from firing a ballistic weapon?

If a mech is in the air when it fires a ballistic weapon/s... shouldn't it spin or flip over? maybe instead of that it could just take a fraction of the weapons damage output and apply that to the firing mech when it is firing a Ballistic weapon while in the air?

Maybe firing a PPC should cause the firing mechs Electronics to shut down briefly from the EMP? ie, ECM, AMS,Radar, targeting computer et al, all power down for an instant?

Increase the speed of LRM's or maybe do away with AMS, or both!

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

For the Timberwolf: The acceleration, twist rate, jumpjet speed, the whole nine yards needs to hit it. It has above average hitboxes which make it difficult to hit when moving quickly or torso twisting fast.

Lets look at this for a moment. This is a 75 ton mech. PGI already messed up by nerfing the turning and handling of the Victor (an 80 ton mech) without addressing the correct related to jump sniping. So lets not make the same stupid mistakes with the Timber Wolf. From what I can tell brawling of Victors and Timbers Wolves was never really something that broke the game. If something is close you have a good chance of hitting it. But then something is great at sniping and great at brawling then it breaks the game. So lets fix sniping by placing limits on PPCs. And lets encourage close agile fun brawling my leaving mechs that can do it. We want mechs that can close the distance to a sniper and then make him pay.

[Cardos]

On the Mad Cat: As the Mad Cat stands for the clans like no other mech i expected it to get good.....although i must confess i feared worse. Although i couldnt test it first hand yet (not all could afford those clanstuff), it doesnt seem overpowered when running against it or spectating it.....maybe its a bit to agile when they go against lights, but if so only slightly (which seems to negate when the terrain is in favor of the light ie. much "small" cover).
When it comes to the other points i could just repeat my statement in another thread:

Cardos, on 22 June 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

I have to say im impressed how good pgi did balance the clans. So No to that pay to win ****....
Although it isnt perfect i can work with it, and i couldnt afford clan either.

Only some minor things i wish for like spliting sides of IS/Clan in a match (Pgi already stated thats on the To-Do-List for CW) and a button to deaktivate AMS or Laser-AMS (both would be nice) as the way how those clan-lrms work it drains ams-ammo quite fast (tickling mechs to death).
And, i wish for some more brawly maps like a urban jungle themed one or something like that...
Also i would like to see Inferno´s and Thunder-Lrm to get more tactical options.

But at the moment im fine with all the new stuff (i love the srm-fix ) and have to say Pgi did a great job!

[Adiuvo]

Aresye, on 22 June 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

As much as I'd like to say this post appears unbiased, it's hard to overlook the fact that the game finally has "somewhat" of a counter to the poptarting meta via the Timberwolf, and all I see are calls to nerf the Timberwolf by a poptarting meta player from a group of trolls that enjoying rolling pugs with Dragon Slayers and arty strikes.

You know what I've seen? I've seen you competitive types STRUGGLING to get the poptart meta to work with the Timberwolf, commonly being outclassed by non-meta Timberwolves who can repel the 2PPC,Gauss combo that most of you seem to have gravitated towards. Bonus that the Timberwolf can also put out enough DPS to give poptarting Dragon Slayers a good fight for their money.

You also want to buff IS ACs and have the Clan ACs fire less shells (aka closer to FLD)? Given that most of the competitive players I've recognized have been trying to build Clan mechs as close to the PP FLD builds of their IS counterparts, this doesn't really surprise me.

I don't think you read his post, at all. He's calling for nerfs to the PPC/gauss Timberwolf. We've also had zero problems 'getting' that Timberwolf to work fine. I think Heim's W/L in that thing with around 200 matches is at a 7.5, and his KDR is in the 8s. Very weak mech, as you can see. Completely gets outclassed by... like everything.