894 replies to this topic

[GreyGriffin]

Roland, on 23 June 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

So at this point you're just kind of admitting that it's overpowered, and are just saying, "TOO BAD, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT! Just be glad it's not worse!"

Isn't that the current attitude towards the DragonSlayer/Cataphract/SHawk/Ember composition?

[DeathlyEyes]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

No competitive match starts out with a rush. You need to know what the enemy team is bringing. Even 228th didn't flat rush. This allows both teams to set up on the ridges. Caustic is *not* a good brawling map due to this. Crossing Caldera is dangerous and playing the circle game is pointless for a brawling team - you'll constantly be outtraded by jumpsnipers. The only reason their drop deck worked is because we screwed up on the scouting, we had stragglers, and we set up in a terrible position. We should have gone right and played a circle like normal.

Brawl rushes don't work because brawling weapons in most cases right now don't significantly out perform traditionally sniper weapons. In MechWarrior 4 an SRM boat blacklanner could essentially shoot once knock a mech over and then fire again killing it before it could stand back up. It's this kinda damage that this game desperately needs to break up the current meta. FLD is a balance issue because there is such a large discrepancy between duration damage weapons and instant damage weapons. Not to mention poptarting works universally while brawling only works on certain maps. This makes things even worse in PUG queue since you never know what map you are going to get.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 23 June 2014 - 08:15 PM.

[N0MAD]

So from watching those 2 videos, (1v1) i take it the bunny hoping is the new way to exploit bad networking bad HSR?

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Good job turning this attempt of conversation into a total farce.

Oh well, I'm not complaining, I got pizza and popcorn

[Bigg Robb]

I watched the 2 twitch videos. It was pretty stompt-tastic.

[Adiuvo]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 23 June 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

Brawl rushes don't work because brawling weapons in most cases right now don't significantly out perform traditionally sniper weapons. In MechWarrior 4 an SRM boat blacklanner could essentially shoot once knock a mech over and then fire again killing it before it could stand back up. It's this kinda damage that this game desperately needs to break up the current meta. FLD is a balance issue because there is such a large discrepancy between duration damage weapons and instant damage weapons.

SRM heavy brawlers have about triple the sustained DPS compared to sniper mechs.

N0MAD, on 23 June 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

So from watching those 2 videos, (1v1) i take it the bunny hoping is the new way to exploit bad networking bad HSR?

It's not HSR. It's the Victor's jump animation. It jumps about 5m in the air just by tapping spacebar which allows for basically free damage spread.

The Timberwolf has an even worse animation.

Jump animations are another thing in the long list of crap they need to fix.

Edited by Adiuvo, 23 June 2014 - 08:16 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

SRM heavy brawlers have about triple the sustained DPS compared to sniper mechs.

To every component maybe. The weapon spread is too large. There is no knockdown from the SRMs and quite a few differences. There's obviously a reason it worked in MW4 in league play and it doesn't necessarily show up here.

[GreyGriffin]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

SRM heavy brawlers have about triple the sustained DPS compared to sniper mechs.

Sssoo, why don't they show up in high level play?

[N0MAD]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

SRM heavy brawlers have about triple the sustained DPS compared to sniper mechs.


It's not HSR. It's the Victor's jump animation. It jumps about 5m in the air just by tapping spacebar which allows for basically free damage spread.

The Timberwolf has an even worse animation.

Jump animations are another thing in the long list of crap they need to fix.

an exploit all the same?,, thanks for clearing it up tho.

[DeathlyEyes]

GreyGriffin, on 23 June 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Sssoo, why don't they show up in high level play?

Poor map design, too large of spread and hill climb (affects ground bound brawlers).

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 23 June 2014 - 08:19 PM.

[Adiuvo]

GreyGriffin, on 23 June 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Sssoo, why don't they show up in high level play?

Uh... because they haven't registered for like 1.5 years now?...

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 23 June 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

To every component maybe. The weapon spread is too large. There is no knockdown from the SRMs and quite a few differences. There's obviously a reason it worked in MW4 in league play and it doesn't necessarily show up here.

Spread really isn't that bad. You're still able to get probably around 60% of the missiles on a single component and the other ones are still hitting side torsos.

[DeathlyEyes]

How to balance Mechwarrior.

1. Reduce laser duration of all IS lasers 25%
2. Reduce effects of hill climb. Set max hill climb to 60 degrees.
3. Remove indirect LRM fire and double LRM speed.
4. Incoming ordinance warning from betty whenever a strike is nearby.
5. Remove ghost heat lower heat cap increase heat dissipation.
6. Allow jump jets on all chassis so more mechs can be viable.
7. Introduce a Battle Value system that has meta modifiers based off different meta flavors.
8. Introduce Combat Value per player ELO*BV/2 or something a long those lines.
9. Reduce SRM spread.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 23 June 2014 - 08:23 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Oh lol. Whatever dude. If you want to think I'm an ass you can go ahead and think I'm an ass. What I post here won't convince you otherwise because it's more convenient for you to keep that view.

You started off on the strong side of Forest Colony for a sniper fight, you got free shots on him, and you couldn't damage him enough before he got in range... it's not like you started one grid square away from him. You started an entire map away. And then you shut down.

You got outplayed man, just suck it up.

And this is why I have been saying we don't have sniping in this game. One two hits tops and your war machine should die. That is how sniping works. We have sharpshooting at best

[GreyGriffin]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Uh... because they haven't registered for like 1.5 years now?...

I thought you guys were quick enough to pick up on the total sweetness of the new rebalanced SRMs that are going to change everything in 5 days?

Come on, chop chop.

[N0MAD]

Just out of curiosity, how many competitive teams are out there do you estimate?

[Vassago Rain]

GreyGriffin, on 23 June 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Sssoo, why don't they show up in high level play?

They kinda didn't work since november 2012, and were fixed a week ago.

[DieGruneMorder]

I cant believe so many people have the nerve to say that the Clan-tech isnt OP. I've payed very close attention to the matches ive played since the introduction, and there is an obvious difference in firepower that can be felt ingame and refferenced with the numbers afterwards. Aside from this, a quick trip to Smurfy will show you that the clan weapons have a ton more advantages than disadvantages versus the inner sphere weaponry, especially lasers.

Edited by DieGruneMorder, 23 June 2014 - 08:25 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

SRM heavy brawlers have about triple the sustained DPS compared to sniper mechs.

Speaking of IS mechs. These mechs are slow assaults. If you take in consideration Time to Close as well as Time to Kill, the triple (in reality 2,5x) DPS does not give any advantage, because the effective distance to kill gets so low. If not they sport XL and lose survivability by that.

Clan vs clan is a bit different, but ER PPC increases Time to Close so the result is similiar.

[Koniks]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

You're ignoring the proof I've provided you. The match is that proof, and you've tried this entire time to hand-wave it off. You were entirely wrong on the tonnage point, you're wrong on the gap closing point (with IS mechs) and you're wrong on the effective damage point. A general brawler is going to move in the 80kph range, faster if it's a medium mech. This is a little over 20m/s. Closing in from 270m to 180m is not going to take that long.

No competitive match starts out with a rush. You need to know what the enemy team is bringing. Even 228th didn't flat rush. This allows both teams to set up on the ridges. Caustic is *not* a good brawling map due to this. Crossing Caldera is dangerous and playing the circle game is pointless for a brawling team - you'll constantly be outtraded by jumpsnipers. The only reason their drop deck worked is because we screwed up on the scouting, we had stragglers, and we set up in a terrible position. We should have gone right and played a circle like normal.

If you think the premise of his post is wrong, that's great. I don't agree, and I don't think it'll ever be realistic for them to ever gut the current heat system and change it.

The issue isn't closing from 270m to 180m. It's getting from 1000m+ to <180m. See, e.g. River City Night, where both teams have clear shots at each other, at range, across open ground right from the drop points. Caustic is uniquely set up to allow both teams to hit that ridge at roughly the same time without first being exposed to several volleys of focus fire. Also, 1 match on 1 map isn't data. It's anecdote.

A min-maxed, mixed load brawler SHD can go 97kph. So I don't think speed's the issue here.

I think you don't agree because you're too comfortable with the current meta and mechanics to appreciate why they don't work. I don't think this is because you want to privilege the status quo. I concede you guys want a more dynamic set of gameplay. But I think you're too wed to things as they are and so you're looking for quick fixes and tweaks. The problem is those aren't going to work--they've tried that for 1.5 years and yet here we are.

Time for some alternative approaches.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 08:36 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

DieGruneMorder, on 23 June 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

I cant believe so many people have the nerve to say that the Clan-tech isnt OP. I've payed very close attention to the matches ive played since the introduction, and there is an obvious difference in firepower that can be felt ingame and refferenced with the numbers afterwards. Aside from this, a quick trip to Smurfy will show you that the clan weapons have a ton more advantages than disadvantages versus the inner sphere weaponry, especially lasers.

The weapons themselves, yes. The chassis with the weapons on them no. The Timberwolf really doesn't have the space available on it to properly carry 2 ER PPC 1 Gauss. It can do so stripping armor and only mounting 2 jump jets. As soon as fall damage is implemented this mech will be hit the hardest because it lacks the tonnage to carry a 3rd jump jet to pad the landing.

The Direwolf, the only clan mech capable of carrying stuff not on IS mechs (2 ER PPC 2 Gauss, ridiculous brawler, etc) is too slow and often is left behind. Then it's easy prey since it has hardly any torso twist. If you are killed by a Direwolf it's because you were bad and couldn't stay out of its cone of fire or were really unaware and were flanked by a Direwolf.

The Summoner and Nova don't have much pod space.

The Stormcrow doesn't have Jump jets.

The Adder and Kit Fox are slow.

The Warhawk is basically a slightly faster stalker.