894 replies to this topic

[GreyGriffin]

We fundamentally disagree on the impact of randomness on the game. If Cone of Fire is reasonable (i.e. not World of Tanks) and manageable (by altering behavior) By making jump sniping less viable and less powerful overall, then managing your cone of fire becomes as important as your ability to hover your mouse cursor over a specific pixel. It is a different skill not a lesser skill.

And by penalizing jumping by making high precision shots impossible while in midair, you relegate the sniper to a 'mech who uses positioning and throttle management rather than "mad hops." The sniper would pay for his precision by increased exposure needed to pull off precise shots, risking damage from 'mechs who are engaged in closing actions. This would furthermore encourage the rise of bracket firing weapon groups - taking secondary weapons that can be used in close combat by multirole 'mechs, which are the bread and butter, meat and potatoes of Battletech. Jump sniping shouldn't be impossible, but you should hit "a mech's center mass" at 300m, not "a mech in the face."

Furthermore, the modifications the devs have on the slate for jump jets currently (increased heat load for long burns, leg damage for long falls), seem to inflict far, far worse penalties to 'mechs who use jump jets to maneuver, close, and escape than 'mechs that use them to crest hills.

The root and core of the game's problems are multiple high damage weapon systems slamming into single components. Nobody is advocating for the removal of group fire. So you have to spread that damage somehow in order for the game's core damage mechanics to be meaningful above the very lowest tiers of play. Inflicting gross heat penalties that make PPC use impossible for anyone without jump jets to dive behind cover and cool down makes the problem of a single dominant top tier tactic worse.

No penalty on the back-end of a jump sniping maneuver, as the mechanics currently stand, can both impose a high enough cost to put other tactics on the table for equal consideration without penalizing a jumping 'mech so badly that it's not possible at all. There's just no way to balance the risk-reward ratio without lowering the reward.

Also, even if jump jets were removed from the game, precision FLD alpha strikes from 500m would still be the top strategy. Targeting jump jets and specific chassis don't address that problem at all.

I just thought I'd like to highlight this statement...

Quote

3) Prevent the further impact of RNG mechanics in the game, which are inherently annoying in a competitive game.

I find my torsos sloughing off in one salvo to be way, way more annoying than occasionally drifting a shot when I'm piloting irresponsibly.

[Gyrok]

Cone of fire is a world of trouble you seriously do not want...be forewarned.

[GreyGriffin]

Gyrok, on 23 June 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

Cone of fire is a world of trouble you seriously do not want...be forewarned.

I was in for Pre-HSR closed beta convergence. My main ride was a dual PPC K-2. I know all about missing shots.

[Koniks]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Snip

I understand how high cooldown, high damage weapons are advantaged by high dissipation. But a low total heat cap would limit how many of them you can fire at once, increasing the ability of a target to shield and spread damage. Meanwhile, sustained DPS weapons could constantly be cycled through. You'd have to choose between using a few PPFLD shots, timed only to hit key components. Or sustained DPS. Or a mix.

Right now there's no choice, PPFLD wins hands down because the heat cap is so high.

MWO has largely abandoned table top. Our cooldown/fire rates are 2-3 times as rapid as TT. Which means, e.g. an IS AC20 is an AC40. And IS AC2s are basically burst fire AC20s. PPCS are really dual PPCs. Armor has been doubled to reflect that, but at the same time, TT balanced those damage values by randomly assigning hit locations. Something MWO has rightly avoided.

Never mind the 10 second turns, Table Top's lower heat threshold with penalties limited how many alphas you could deliver. I'm fine with abandoning 10 second turns. But MWO has implemented a system where mechs can alpha strike weapons with 3 times the heat at no penalty, not even risking shutdown. Ghost heat just means they can do that twice before having to worry about only using ballistics or switching to chainfire.

A lower heat cap with higher dissipation wouldn't be adding variables. It'd be reducing them. Yes, they might have to make a pass to readjust heat values but it's not that complicated. Cut the heat cap by some value (e.g. half) and raise dissipation commensurately, then you also reduce weapon heat by something similar, although less, to reduce overall DPS and increase TTK.

Heat sinks expanding the cap is a particular boon to PPFLD mechs because they have more devastating alphas. And if heim identified low TTK as an issue, then a reduced heat cap would directly lead to increased TTK.

Ghost heat is a kludge making up for the modular heat cap. The heat cap doesn't have to be set as low as the CBT 30. It just has to be set lower than MW4's.

I think your idea of "simpler" ways is actually more complex. We have a heat cap. Then we have heat sinks that change the heat cap. Then we have ghost heat which arbitrarily changes how weapon heat functions and only affects weapons of linked types--seriously, you can take an LRM 10 and an LRM 20, or 2xLRM15 with no ghost heat but 3xLRM10 gets you ghost heat. Now we're adding in jump jet heat. All of these are complicated kludges that reduce design options.

Yes, gutting the heat system is radical. But in its place would be something simple and elegant that allows more sophisticated design decisions and gameplay.

[Fitzbattleaxe]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

3) Prevent the further impact of RNG mechanics in the game, which are inherently annoying in a competitive game. Given that CW will eventually exist, this game is competitive.

Three points.

Firstly, dealing with randomness is a skill. That's why we have things like world poker championships. Understanding the non-determinism at play in a situation and crafting a strategy around that is far from trivial, as is being able to respond quickly when things don't turn out how you like.

Secondly, randomness is fun. Back when I had 2 UAC/5s on my K2, the most exciting moments of every match would be when I was face to face with a larger opponent, and all I could do was hold down the trigger and hope for the best. If I didn't jam, I could enjoy the feeling of immense power as my enemy was torn to shreds. If I *did* jam, I had to figure out someway of surviving the next few seconds, and even if that just meant turning tail and running, it got the adrenaline pumping like nothing else, and the sense of joy if I managed to survive was well worth losing the engagement.

Thirdly, I contend that introducing some randomness in aiming would actually make the game *less* luck based than in currently is. Even if you have the best aim in the world, there's always going to be some luck involved in the kind of twitch shooting that's prevalent in the current game - a hit to the center torso could end the engagement, while a hit to the left torso might just blow off a missile launcher that was already out of ammo anyway, and which one you hit, especially if fighting at range, is going to be somewhat up to chance, depending on exactly when you fire, and which way your opponent turns. The problem with front-loaded pinpoint damage is that all that chance can be concentrated in the single pull of the trigger - either you make the shot or you don't, and that decides who wins. Alternatively, if all your weapons didn't perfectly converge at the same point, you're going to have fewer situations where a single trigger pull is a decisive factor. The battle is going to last longer, and the 'luck' is going to be amortized over many different pulls of the trigger. So what does this mean for the importance of skill in the game? Well think of it like this. We know that if you flip a coin, you have a 50% chance of getting heads. Think of that head as hitting your target's center torso, and think of the 50% number as the likelihood, based on your skill as a player, of making that shot. Now if you only flip the coin once, you'll either get 0% heads, or 100% heads, neither of which does a good job of reflecting the actual 50% chance. This is comparable to the high pin-point damage shot. On the other hand, if you flip the coin 10 times, you're probably going to get in the range of 40% - 60% heads. This is a much better representation of the true probability of getting heads. Or in terms of the game, a battle in which you get/have to fire 10 shots will show off your skill more accurately than a battle in which you only fire 1.

Edited by Fitzbattleaxe, 24 June 2014 - 01:27 AM.

[FupDup]

As a random side question, what is the overall "competitive" view of the non-Timber-Wolf Clan mechs so far? I have my own impressions, but I dunno if they match up with the "big boys" side of the world or not...

[Turboferret]

You can't seriously tell me that randomness in limited amounts is that terrible for a game when the most successful competitive games right now all have a random element. (LoL, DoTA2, Hearthstone, Counterstrike).

[Vassago Rain]

FupDup, on 23 June 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

As a random side question, what is the overall "competitive" view of the non-Timber-Wolf Clan mechs so far? I have my own impressions, but I dunno if they match up with the "big boys" side of the world or not...

They're not very good, and to make them worthwhile, you have to ignore the clan specific guns and mimic IS gundams.

Puma: a light with zero light capabilities (speed, jets, ECM, boated small guns, etc.) On top of that, it sticks a hardwired flamer in your CT because muh tabletop.
Kit fox: utility Popeye arm and jets, but it's slow.
Nova: pretty okay, but not a 55 tonner.
Stormcrow: very good, but unlike IS 55 tonners, no jets.
Thor: worthless. Completely outclassed by madcats.
Madcat: king of the gundams.
Warhawk: it's a clan awesome.
Daishi: super slow and reliant on DPS guns, or a really slow gauss and ER PPC boat.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I think it would have been better, if clan mechs were just visual skins of current existing IS mechs.
But I guess that would have pissed off a lot of people...

Either that, or keep the Overpowered TT stats of clan weapons, but make it so you absolutely CANNOT customize Clan mechs.

But since we cant digress to those states... All I can do is whine about their implementation.

I personally, don't like the direction they took with Clan weaponry. I absolutely hate the DPS feel Clan ACs and Lasers have. They are IMO worse then their IS counterparts, which forces me to gravitate to C-Gauss and C-ERPPC. And because of heat, I still prefer to play my IS mechs because I can use those weapons while having ARM movement.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Mizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

I understand how high cooldown, high damage weapons are advantaged by high dissipation. But a low total heat cap would limit how many of them you can fire at once, increasing the ability of a target to shield and spread damage. Meanwhile, sustained DPS weapons could constantly be cycled through.

Lower heat cap has no effect on sustained DPS. Higher dissipation on the other hand does and it applies to the jump sniper as well as to the brawler. That's why it always comes down to individual weapon tweaks. But while the weapon systems remain untouched, the TTC and TTK remain relatively same in comparison.

Quote

MWO has largely abandoned table top

It has not and that's one of the problems MWO is having. Base damage being tied so closely to TT it makes very difficult to balance weapons.

[YueFei]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

At close range they're not even. SRMs are better. Whether or not SRMs need to be 'more better' is the right question.

On Testing Grounds, comparing 2xASRM6 (8 tons, 2 hardpoint, 6 crit slots) vs 1xAC5 (8 tons, 1 hardpoint, 4 crit slots), shooting at a frontally-facing Awesome at 90 meters range as the target dummy:

The 2xASRM6 kill the Awesome 23% faster than the 1xAC5. You will hit arms and legs occasionally with some of the missiles. And you will generate 250% as much heat as the 1xAC5 does. Don't forget, the 2xASRM6 is actually a bigger investment than the 1xAC5 in terms of hardpoints and crit slots. Roughly 65% of the SRMs actually connect with the desired CT hitbox of an *Awesome*.

So, in an ideal environment, starting the engagement at 90 meters range, with no lag or hit reg issues to worry about, SRMs just barely outperform the same tonnage of AC5.

That's why brawling is so difficult to pull off successfully. Not to mention that against a skilled pilot that is actively moving and defensively twisting, it can be difficult to bring him down with as few SRM salvos as possible, and since SRMs actually generate so much more heat than AC5, there's the very real possibility of redlining on heat before being able to kill the target, requiring the pilot to slack on his rate-of-fire, giving up his tenuous TTK advantage.

SRMs should be bumped up to 2.5 damage per missile, and the cone-of-fire reduced so that it's possible to concentrate more of the missile pattern into the desired hitbox.

AC5 has more than double the range of SRMs. Seems only fair then that SRMs can kill things dead twice as fast.

Turn speed and twist speed nerfs are too myopically focused on 1v1s. The problem with this is that even if you nerf the Timberwolf so that Lights and Mediums can get into its blindspots, it doesn't help if there are 3 or 4 more Timberwolves standing 120 to 200 meters away from him, ready to core you out.

Hell, who here hasn't experienced closing within 90 meters of a PPC+X Highlander, and started mashing his face in, only to get blasted to scrap by another Highlander standing 100 meters to his left?

In World of Warcraft, 1 Rogue can often outright *embarrass* a Warrior in a duel. But make it 5 Rogues vs 5 Warriors, and the Warriors win every single time, since none of the 1v1 tricks will work anymore. A Rogue can deadzone kite 1 Warrior, but he can't deadzone kite all 5 of them.

That's a problem that has to be resolved with with map and game mode design.

[Koniks]

ugrakarma, on 23 June 2014 - 10:59 PM, said:

Lower heat cap has no effect on sustained DPS. Higher dissipation on the other hand does and it applies to the jump sniper as well as to the brawler. That's why it always comes down to individual weapon tweaks. But while the weapon systems remain untouched, the TTC and TTK remain relatively same in comparison.

It has not and that's one of the problems MWO is having. Base damage being tied so closely to TT it makes very difficult to balance weapons.

Did you read my explanation? They've doubled and tripled some weapons' DPS by keeping their base values and reducing their cooldown. And in the case of the AC/2, almost turned it into an AC/20. That, plus controlled aiming makes for an entirely different experience than Table Top. The heat scale is also a big departure.

The only thing that's the same was their decision not to on face invalidate stock mech loadouts by adjusting crit and tonnage values. They invalidated those loadouts by making the ballistic/PPC/Jump Jet combo the meta.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 11:18 PM.

[FupDup]

Vassago Rain, on 23 June 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

They're not very good, and to make them worthwhile, you have to ignore the clan specific guns and mimic IS gundams.

Puma: a light with zero light capabilities (speed, jets, ECM, boated small guns, etc.) On top of that, it sticks a hardwired flamer in your CT because muh tabletop.
Kit fox: utility Popeye arm and jets, but it's slow.
Nova: pretty okay, but not a 55 tonner.
Stormcrow: very good, but unlike IS 55 tonners, no jets.
Thor: worthless. Completely outclassed by madcats.
Madcat: king of the gundams.
Warhawk: it's a clan awesome.
Daishi: super slow and reliant on DPS guns, or a really slow gauss and ER PPC boat.

My question was more directed at folks like Heimdelight and Adiuvo, no offense.


Although, most of my impressions are similar, but not quite as pessimistic.

The Adder's got nothing on a typical IS "competitive" light or the Kit Faux for sure, but it's still at least better than the slow Ravens (for what that's worth, lol) and probably more useful than a Lolcust or Commando.

The Thor seems a little lackluster, but there are far worse mechs in the game. It does at least beat the crappier IS heavies.

The Warhawk I haven't seen in action enough to decide, but it's definitely not as bad as the Awesome. It can survive at least somewhat more damage and deal more damage as well.

The Dire Whale...I'm torn on. On one hand, it can pack some serious cheese loadouts that make things asplode when it looks at them. On the other hand, it's atrociously slow and unresponsive, especially if it carries PPCs and/or ballistics in each arm. Also, dat CT.

[HarlekinEO]

I can not agree with the initial poster.
Its much more easier to survive with a Light Mech (IS), then before Clan Update.

Im playing currently mainly with my Raven 3L (ML/SRM).
My Win/Loss Ratio increased, My Kill/Death Ratio also. Yesterday, In my Chapter Party, we won every game in the 2 hours we were playing. We had only 1 player with Clan Mech (which were Rotating all his Mechs during the games and earning the 2x Bonus), the rest were IS Mechs.

I think most players are happy with the Clan balancing. There are just a few cry-kiddy-attention-whores who blame their defeat to the clans, but thats aint the reason (for sure!).

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Mizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

Did you read my explanation? They've doubled and tripled some weapons' DPS by keeping their base values and reducing their cooldown. And in the case of the AC/2, almost turned it into an AC/20. That, plus controlled aiming makes for an entirely different experience than Table Top. The heat scale is also a big departure.

The only thing that's the same was their decision not to on face invalidate stock mech loadouts by adjusting crit and tonnage values. They invalidated those loadouts by making the ballistic/PPC/Jump Jet combo the meta.

Yes I read it. My remark meant that they should take the lore, base mechanics, totally forget TT and it's values and balance the game as real time shooter it is. Sorry if I was being unclear...

Edited by ugrakarma, 23 June 2014 - 11:40 PM.

[Koniks]

My bad, I misread it. I agree with you.

I think they've come up with overly complex rules that lead to simple, stagnant gameplay. I'd be happier if it was more sim-like.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 11:49 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Ghost heat is a dirty but necessary solution owing to the mechanics that come about from this game being a FPS. Even if the heatcap was 30 you'd still be able to fire a 2xPPC/Gauss mech, and thanks to the presumably increased cooldown, probably only need to wait an extra gauss shot cycle to fire again. If you want the cap even lower than 30 I'm not sure that's a game many people would want to play. Too slow.

Well, depending on the heat JJs are going to produce, those might shut you down at a 30 cap. 24 heat min with TT rules. MWO would have to change the JJ heat rules a bit, but it could be one of the balancing mechanics.


Making Poptarting a high risk high reward method would be my preference. MWLL has a different take on JJs, being vectorable and also throwing you around quite fast and far compared to MWO.

There isn't any reticule sway when jumping up, and you stay at the apex for a moment, letting you get that perfect shot off. It also makes you completely exposed to any return fire if you chose a bad position to jump in, giving the tactic a fair bit of risk.
The JJs also generate a fair bit of heat, which is in itself a balancing mechanic.

[Ghogiel]

R Razor, on 23 June 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

Can't have it both ways my man.........you guys (so called top tier players I mean) run around and pat each other on the back when you think you can wolfpack someone who posts something you don't like and then come out with some nonsense like this when it suits you?

Maybe if you policed your own then those in your crowd that weren't the aforementioned hygiene products could be taken more seriously and given more credit for their knowledge of the game and suggestions......unfortunately too many of your "gang" have ruined any chance of open mindedness and goodwill from most of the player base.

Police me lol, don't think so. I didn't ruin any chance of open mindedness from anyone, it was like that when I got here. Just look players posting in here about not wanting to use practical solutions involving systems already in the game ie ghost heat mechanic and chassis quirks and don't want it to balanced at the top. The reasons forwarded as to why is they don't care about winning as well then having no understanding that balancing at the top is balancing the game as a whole.

Fact of the matter is this is a competitive game and universally every book written on the matter and successful comp game balances around the top. For actual reasons, not just I don't care about winning or balance, don't touch my TBR what's wrong that it being a super saiyan CTF 3D!?

[Bobby Blast]

Honestly the thing that pissed me off the most about the Zensei match was this...

Heimdelight: " Zensei, do you have premium time?"
Zensei: "No, I don't believe in giving them money."

My feelings on this comment trumps any validity he may have had and is best described in a monologue from The Big Lebowski (1998) starring Jeff Bridges as spoken by David Huddelston to The Dude.

"My advice to you is, to do what your parents did! Get a job, sir! The bums will always lose-- do you hear me, Lebowski?
THE BUMS WILL ALWAYS LOSE!"

Anyway it pisses me off that people play the game and don't support it at all then wonder why the developers don't have the resources to fix their particular problems immediately. I wish it were pay to win then I'd get better service over a bum like Zensei.

Edited by Bobby Blast, 24 June 2014 - 03:19 AM.

[R Razor]

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2014 - 03:17 AM, said:

Police me lol, don't think so. I didn't ruin any chance of open mindedness from anyone, it was like that when I got here. Just look players posting in here about not wanting to use practical solutions involving systems already in the game ie ghost heat mechanic and chassis quirks and don't want it to balanced at the top. The reasons forwarded as to why is they don't care about winning as well then having no understanding that balancing at the top is balancing the game as a whole.

Fact of the matter is this is a competitive game and universally every book written on the matter and successful comp game balances around the top. For actual reasons, not just I don't care about winning or balance, don't touch my TBR what's wrong that it being a super saiyan CTF 3D!?

That right there is the crux of the problem with this game (and the forum). This is not a sport, it is not a competitive game, it is a GAME. When you start earning money playing this GAME then you can call it a competitive game. You and people like yourself are what creates the vast majority of the problems with this game. If you clowns all had your own server and your own ques then the vast majority of folks that play this game, the silent majority as it were, would very likely be quite content with the current balance. It;s the continual insistence of the vocal majority (poptart button pushers with no real talent aside from an ability to exploit bad game design) that have brought us ghost heat and any number of other nerfs.

This is the same crowd that would scream bloody murder if they suddenly couldn't mount ANY weapon on ANY hard point (energy on energy / ballistic on ballistic) because it would ruin customization in their eyes. (In fact it would ruin their ability to run the button press mechs and that is why you cry).

Go earn a paycheck playing MW:O, then you can call it whatever you wish and have a leg to stand on, until then you're just as I described in an earlier post.......someone with an ability to exploit poorly designed and poorly implemented game mechanics that has finally found something in life you are good at.......killing digital images with a couple of button presses. Congrats on your uber skills. Now stop whining because there is another chassis out there that can exploit the same mechanics to a greater degree just because you didn't pony up the cash to buy it.