894 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Quote

Anyway it pisses me off that people play the game and don't support it at all then wonder why the developers don't have the resources to fix their particular problems immediately. I wish it were pay to win then I'd get better service over a bum like Zensei.

Ironically, you'd have far fewer robots to shoot but for people like Zensei. That's the nature of F2P games. P2W would mean even fewer. Zensei doesn't put money in because he likely doesn't believe he'll get much out of it.

Without F2P gamers, MWO would have dropped to abysmal levels of matchmaking wait, even more so than it can be now.

[N0MAD]

I dont get the preoccupation people/PGI have with wanting to make people play chassis they dont want to play..
The % of numbers of lights/Mediums is the way it is because thats the % of people that want to play those chassis.

As far as the comment earlier about BV not working in games, My Planes game uses BV, works quite well for MM, thats not saying i think it will work in MWO.
Ive said this before if ELO works (it shouldnt be in game if it doesnt) then match making only needs to consist of ELO + Tonnage or match people of roughly same skill level with the same tonnage of hardware.
Really what could be simpler or fairer?.

Edited by N0MAD, 24 June 2014 - 06:36 AM.

[EgoSlayer]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

<snip>

Combined with JJs, FLD mechs become overpowered. This is due to the risk/reward factor of the playstyle getting all out of whack. JJs allow you to expose very little of your mech to return fire and you can effectively get free damage when piloting a jumpsniper correctly. Currently, 1 or 2 JJs is enough to accomplish this goal and thus the sacrifice for being able to do it is incredibly small. There is also no inherent risk with JJs. They only provide benefits, such as the increased climb rate which is necessary now that hill climb is in.

You have often suggested that, since the problem is JJ fire, to implement a cone of fire mechanic when jump jetting. The problem with this is that it removes jump sniping from the game entirely. If you are not able to put out accurate fire jump sniping ceases to be dangerous, allowing teams to push with impunity. The increases the speed of the game since brawler weapons deal more damage than sniper weapons, which is somewhat against the design goals of MWO and Battletech in general. Furthermore, lights and mediums, as well as jump brawlers would be severely impacted by a cone of fire solution. Even if the cone of fire was minimal, MWO necessitates and rewards being able to land consecutive hits on components. Due to the high TTK of this game compared to others, for your own mech to survive you need to be able to quickly take out the enemy mechs. There is no healing in this game. The only damage mitigation is going to come through kills. If you are a shot or two away from death and you take perfect aim at an enemy mechs side torso to strip it, and you miss through RNG, it's just a frustrating moment. You did nothing wrong. You did things to the best you are capable of. The game, however, decided that you should die despite this.

<snip>

1) Keep jumpsniping a valid tactic, but not an overpowering one.
2) Prevent impact on JJ lights, JJ mediums, and JJ brawlers.
3) Prevent the further impact of RNG mechanics in the game, which are inherently annoying in a competitive game. Given that CW will eventually exist, this game is competitive.
4) Increase the skill requirement to actually jump snipe effectively.
5) Introduce JJ drawbacks to balance out the dichotomy between JJ mechs and non-JJ mechs.

I think these points are the reason why many are disagreeing. Removing jump sniping entirely from the game wouldn't harm it like you are suggesting. There was a time before the jump sniper was a valid tactic because the game mechanics didn't allow it to work, it was in fact removed entirely from the game because it was an unplayable style for several reasons during the beta, and it didn't allow teams to push with impunity. The game can be played without it. There are other valid tactics to prevent a push and area denial without jump sniping.

Addressing the root cause - JJ+FLD will fix the problem better than (often off the mark) nerfs that target specific chassis to make them less effective than others at a specific problem mechanic. Address the problem mechanic, not the ones that can use it.

So yes, huge cone of fire when jumping, or lock out balistics/PPCs when jumping, or jump jets become a mechanic like other FPS where you hit jump and you go up and forward an amount based on the number of jumpjets and your speed, etc. But for the love of god, address the root cause of the problem not these continued band-aid s that reduce viability everywhere.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 24 June 2014 - 06:28 AM.

[R Razor]

N0MAD, on 24 June 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

I dont get the preoccupation people/PGI have with wanting to make people play chassis they dont want to play..
The % of numbers of lights/Mediums is the way it is because thats the % of people that want to play those chassis.

Not necessarily. I know several people that would prefer to run light or medium mechs more often than they do, but in order to not gimp their team, jump into heavy or assault chassis. With the weapons balance as it stands, the majority of folks need the tonnage to stay alive long enough to deal out enough damage to help their team. There are of course exceptions to every rule, and I know plenty of folks capable of consistent 600+, 4 kill+ games in Jenners or other lights, but they are certainly not the rule.

[Ghogiel]

Bobzilla, on 24 June 2014 - 05:38 AM, said:

You'll have to tell me what games have no progression limits and you end up having vets mixed with new players.

Also, I admit I haven't gone over any books on the matter, let alone every one. Maybe you can quote some.

Street fighter 2

And yeah

"Finally, playtesting, especially with experts, is how you figure out where your problems really are. Do the experts ignore some vast portion of you game’s moves? Have they discovered a bunch of checkmate situations that you didn’t know about? Do you see them using a variety of strategies?"

Gyrok, on 24 June 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Top down balance is a valid approach, however, this is not top down balance. Top down balance would have to require that the top weapons had some sort of meaningful drawbacks for being the top weapons. In MWO top weapons are IS AC (ammo req is not a drawback really), and IS PPC which runs far too cool right now.

I agree we dont have that in this game. if we did lurms would be buffed :V

Edited by Ghogiel, 24 June 2014 - 06:28 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

Also I really don't like that you are allowed to fire multiple large caliber weapons simultaneously with no consequence, recoil was a thing in battletech, mechs typically chainfired most of their weapons, this constant alpha strike gameplay we have now is BS and is responsible for most of the problems in this game.

1) Recoil doesn't mean jack, 'Mechs can and do fire full salvos in Battletech...if it's sensible rangewise and heatwise to do so.
2) Mechs fire groups of weapons frequently. Go look up what a "Target Interlock Circuit" is for.
3) Alpha strikes don't break things. Being able to put all your damage instantly into a single location without any means of spreaing damage breaks things.

[Blacksoul1987]

also razor competitive players are not the only ones that try to abuse game mechanics many casual players do as well they just are not as good at it. the best mechs in this game are also the easiest to use so there are plenty of players trying to abuse the mechanics in some fashion or another, you would not believe how many players I see running around in ac40 jagers or meta mechs that cannot even aim. There is simply no reason for anyone to use something that is more difficult.

[R Razor]

Blacksoul1987, on 24 June 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

also razor competitive players are not the only ones that try to abuse game mechanics many casual players do as well they just are not as good at it. the best mechs in this game are also the easiest to use so there are plenty of players trying to abuse the mechanics in some fashion or another, you would not believe how many players I see running around in ac40 jagers or meta mechs that cannot even aim. There is simply no reason for anyone to use something that is more difficult.

Of that I have no doubt, just as I have no doubt that they achieve better results in relation to their skill level than they would were they piloting a non cheese setup. The mere fact that the PPC-AC meta is such a huge factor in this game is a direct result of those so called "competitive, top tier, uber 1337" with the ego's to match their alleged skills, players that absolutely insist that only they know what is best for this game and that PGI, for reasons known only to themselves, have chosen to listen to thus far.

[Ghogiel]

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

Of that I have no doubt, just as I have no doubt that they achieve better results in relation to their skill level than they would were they piloting a non cheese setup. The mere fact that the PPC-AC meta is such a huge factor in this game is a direct result of those so called "competitive, top tier, uber 1337" with the ego's to match their alleged skills, players that absolutely insist that only they know what is best for this game and that PGI, for reasons known only to themselves, have chosen to listen to thus far.

Nah.

Players cannot be held accountable for making PPCs ACs and JJ as good as they are.

The PPC/AC meta is such a huge factor because PGI balanced the game that way.

[R Razor]

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

Nah.

Players cannot be held accountable for making PPCs ACs and JJ as good as they are.

The PPC/AC meta is such a huge factor because PGI balanced the game that way.

I have said that all along............PGI created and implemented the broken game mechanic, the so called "1337" players just happen to be very good at exploiting it. Even the average pick up player is going to do better in a meta mech than a non, not because he is more skilled but because the game mechanic allows for it. That is precisely why I laugh at every "I'm a super competitive player" poster that then immediately jumps into a poptarting metamech just to prove how great he or she is. Comedy Gold I tell you, Comedy Gold.

[Wispsy]

EgoSlayer, on 24 June 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

I think these points are the reason why many are disagreeing. Removing jump sniping entirely from the game wouldn't harm it like you are suggesting. There was a time before the jump sniper was a valid tactic because the game mechanics didn't allow it to work, it was in fact removed entirely from the game because it was an unplayable style for several reasons during the beta, and it didn't allow teams to push with impunity. The game can be played without it. There are other valid tactics to prevent a push and area denial without jump sniping.

From the moment the Cataphract came out jump sniping was the best tactic...ppc heat and recycle time were really low then and there was no Highlander or Victor to show up with more armour and out trade it. It was the only real way to deal with Splatcat rushes and **** like that.


Anyway I saw a load of people going "oh but the DS has been the best for so long let something else have a turn"...and great...but the other mechs have not got better...so the Timberwolf is just even further ahead...this game is moving towards having 2 God tier mechs 2/3 Better then everything else by quite a bit mechs and then everything else waaaaaay behind..but that is ok because that is how clans are meant to be??????

To be honest I would be much happier if instead of nerfing the mobility of all these heavies and assaults they just buff lights by 50kph and mediums by 30kph, then there is maybe a reason to play them again.

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

I have said that all along............PGI created and implemented the broken game mechanic, the so called "1337" players just happen to be very good at exploiting it. Even the average pick up player is going to do better in a meta mech than a non, not because he is more skilled but because the game mechanic allows for it. That is precisely why I laugh at every "I'm a super competitive player" poster that then immediately jumps into a poptarting metamech just to prove how great he or she is. Comedy Gold I tell you, Comedy Gold.

Well you can only be the best by playing the best...and honestly I would consider the mechlab a big part of the battle...

[R Razor]

Wispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Well you can only be the best by playing the best...and honestly I would consider the mechlab a big part of the battle...

But that is the point, you are not "the best", it's an illusion created and enhanced by poor game mechanics..........now were you capable of achieving the same or higher scores in a sterile environment utilizing NON meta then you would have a valid claim to skill...........all you have right now is a valid claim to being the top exploiter of a group of exploiters.

[Koniks]

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

While PGI is its own entity, in a manner of speaking they are OUR employees...

Regardless of my thoughts on anything else you've written, this is wrong. We don't employ PGI. Russ Bullock and IGP do. Russ and IGP pay PGI employees to make a game that we can pay to play or not.

We are just end users. They have no obligation to do anything we want except to the extent that they might make more profit doing it.

They can shut the doors tomorrow and start working on a console video game based on Edge of Tomorrow if they want. The only recourse we'd have would be to discuss what they did in a non-libelous and non-slanderous way that makes people unlikely to buy their games again.

[Roland]

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

But that is the point, you are not "the best", it's an illusion created and enhanced by poor game mechanics..........now were you capable of achieving the same or higher scores in a sterile environment utilizing NON meta then you would have a valid claim to skill...........all you have right now is a valid claim to being the top exploiter of a group of exploiters.

Skill within a game is measured by ones ability to play THAT game, not some imagined game made up of additional rules outside the game.

If you are able to achieve consistent victory without violating the rules of a game, then yes, it does in fact mean you are the best.

[pwnface]

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

But that is the point, you are not "the best", it's an illusion created and enhanced by poor game mechanics..........now were you capable of achieving the same or higher scores in a sterile environment utilizing NON meta then you would have a valid claim to skill...........all you have right now is a valid claim to being the top exploiter of a group of exploiters.

LOL so basically you are just saying everyone that plays metagame are exploiters and are bad at the "actual" game of non-meta only players like you? Meaning ban all jump jets, autocannons, and ppcs and then play to see who is the "actual" best at this game? Give me a break, you are just bad at this game and are trying to delude yourself into thinking if only nobody played meta you would stop getting spanked by everyone.


edit: oops i forgot ban gauss too! in fact ban engines and maybe you'll win. you sir are a complete joke

Edited by pwnface, 24 June 2014 - 07:12 AM.

[Ghogiel]

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

I have said that all along............PGI created and implemented the broken game mechanic, the so called "1337" players just happen to be very good at exploiting it. Even the average pick up player is going to do better in a meta mech than a non, not because he is more skilled but because the game mechanic allows for it. That is precisely why I laugh at every "I'm a super competitive player" poster that then immediately jumps into a poptarting metamech just to prove how great he or she is. Comedy Gold I tell you, Comedy Gold.

It's the game though.

"your meta is a crutch" "I don't use JJ or PPC", just proves they are the least adaptable players out there. bads gon b bad.

[R Razor]

Roland, on 24 June 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Skill within a game is measured by ones ability to play THAT game, not some imagined game made up of additional rules outside the game.

If you are able to achieve consistent victory without violating the rules of a game, then yes, it does in fact mean you are the best.

Not even close............just because you found an exploit and made the most of it does not make you the best by any stretch of the imagination..........it takes far more skill to achieve high damage numbers, high kill ratios and a high win loss ratio in a non meta mech than it ever will in a button pusher mech. Just because the mechanics of the game FAVOR button pushers does not make them more skilled, it allows them to win more often yes, but only because the broken mechanics reward a tactic that requires less skill.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I still don't understand how you ask to nerf a mech, when it's the mechanics that are broken.

And saying "Hey, nerf Clan PPC's too", doesn't mean you are nerfing the mechanics...there is only one Clan mech that can really be utilized in a jump sniping role, so you are once again directly nerfing THAT mech.

It just means every other Clan mech is collateral damage.

Any change has to be about curbing jump sniping in general. You can't have one style be heads and tails above the rest.

And until I see the "Lords" consistently using SRMs which do "3 times" the DPS up close per Adiuvo...I have a hard time taking them at their word that jump sniping doesn't need a major overhaul.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 24 June 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[R Razor]

pwnface, on 24 June 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

LOL so basically you are just saying everyone that plays metagame are exploiters and are bad at the "actual" game of non-meta only players like you? Meaning ban all jump jets, autocannons, and ppcs and then play to see who is the "actual" best at this game? Give me a break, you are just bad at this game and are trying to delude yourself into thinking if only nobody played meta you would stop getting spanked by everyone.


edit: oops i forgot ban gauss too! in fact ban engines and maybe you'll win. you sir are a complete joke

The adults are talking now, you'll get your turn at recess.

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

It's the game though.

"your meta is a crutch" "I don't use JJ or PPC", just proves they are the least adaptable players out there. bads gon b bad.

Given that they run more than one style of mech, I'd argue that the least adaptable players are the ones that can't succeed on the same level whether they are utilizing meta or not............exploiters gon exploit.

[pwnface]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 June 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

I still don't understand how you ask to nerf a mech, when it's the mechanics that are broken.

And saying "Hey, nerf Clan PPC's too", doesn't mean you are nerfing the mechanics...there is only one Clan mech that can really be utilized in a jump sniping role, so you are once again directing nerfing THAT mech.

It just means every other Clan mech is collateral damage.

Any change has to be about curbing jump sniping in general. You can't have one style be heads and tails above the rest.

And until I see the "Lords" consistently using SRMs which do "3 times" the DPS up close per Adiuvo...I have a hard time taking them at their word that jump sniping doesn't need a major overhaul.

I feel like brawling with SRMs may become somewhat viable when being mixed with the poptart meta. A team of only brawlers would get absolutely wrecked in most cases though.