894 replies to this topic

[R Razor]

Bobby Blast, on 24 June 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

Anyway it pisses me off that people play the game and don't support it at all then wonder why the developers don't have the resources to fix their particular problems immediately. I wish it were pay to win then I'd get better service over a bum like Zensei.

One must offer a product that meets what was promised before one should expect to get paid again. If I had an employee working for me that consistently failed to meet the minimum expectations of his job position and always had an excuse for not doing so, how long should I continue to pay said employee?

While PGI is its own entity, in a manner of speaking they are OUR employees and, while they are showing improvement across the board in my opinion, they have yet to CONSISTENTLY meet the minimum requirements necessary to continue collecting a pay check from myself, and apparently many others.

Once CW drops I am sure things will change (assuming it's not an abortion like some other aspects have been) but until then, a lot of us that have spent money on this game will continue to "wait and see" rather than toss more cash at them.

[Ghogiel]

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 03:49 AM, said:

That right there is the crux of the problem with this game (and the forum). This is not a sport, it is not a competitive game, it is a GAME. When you start earning money playing this GAME then you can call it a competitive game. You and people like yourself are what creates the vast majority of the problems with this game. If you clowns all had your own server and your own ques then the vast majority of folks that play this game, the silent majority as it were, would very likely be quite content with the current balance. It;s the continual insistence of the vocal majority (poptart button pushers with no real talent aside from an ability to exploit bad game design) that have brought us ghost heat and any number of other nerfs.

This is the same crowd that would scream bloody murder if they suddenly couldn't mount ANY weapon on ANY hard point (energy on energy / ballistic on ballistic) because it would ruin customization in their eyes. (In fact it would ruin their ability to run the button press mechs and that is why you cry).

Go earn a paycheck playing MW:O, then you can call it whatever you wish and have a leg to stand on, until then you're just as I described in an earlier post.......someone with an ability to exploit poorly designed and poorly implemented game mechanics that has finally found something in life you are good at.......killing digital images with a couple of button presses. Congrats on your uber skills. Now stop whining because there is another chassis out there that can exploit the same mechanics to a greater degree just because you didn't pony up the cash to buy it.

You don't have to earn money playing a game for it to be competitive. Like at all.

[R Razor]

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

You don't have to earn money playing a game for it to be competitive. Like at all.

That's all you've got?

My points are made...........please continue to exploit the mechanics I referenced and feel as though you are actually competing and accomplishing something with your time. The rest of us will continue to wait on CW and hope that PGI sees the issue with allowing your mindset to control the game whilst keeping our wallets closed.

Either they will make adequate adjustments and retain a broad spectrum player base, or they will continue to allow you and yours to dictate the direction the game goes and have to hope that you uber competitive players spend enough to allow them to keep the doors open.

At the end of the day, it's a game and there are plenty of others out there I can play, so whatever they decide isn't going to change my life overly much.

[pwnface]

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

That's all you've got?

My points are made...........please continue to exploit the mechanics I referenced and feel as though you are actually competing and accomplishing something with your time. The rest of us will continue to wait on CW and hope that PGI sees the issue with allowing your mindset to control the game whilst keeping our wallets closed.

Either they will make adequate adjustments and retain a broad spectrum player base, or they will continue to allow you and yours to dictate the direction the game goes and have to hope that you uber competitive players spend enough to allow them to keep the doors open.

At the end of the day, it's a game and there are plenty of others out there I can play, so whatever they decide isn't going to change my life overly much.

I think Ghogiel is making valid points here and you come off as a big QQ other players are too good at the game nerf everyone so I don't suck crybaby. No matter how they balance MWO there will always be an optimal set of weapons that the "competitive" players gravitate to. Unless you improve yourself as a player (learn how to meta) you will continue to get spanked no matter what the metagame is.

If you actually believe "poptart button pushers with no real talent aside from an ability to exploit bad game design" that totally explains why you are getting spanked. Not everyone can poptart at the same level, believe it or not there IS skill involved. Just because these players kick your butt and you don't like it you can't invalidate their skillset which is letting them BEAT YOU.

Edited by pwnface, 24 June 2014 - 04:17 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

That's all you've got?

My points are made...........please continue to exploit the mechanics I referenced and feel as though you are actually competing and accomplishing something with your time. The rest of us will continue to wait on CW and hope that PGI sees the issue with allowing your mindset to control the game whilst keeping our wallets closed.

Either they will make adequate adjustments and retain a broad spectrum player base, or they will continue to allow you and yours to dictate the direction the game goes and have to hope that you uber competitive players spend enough to allow them to keep the doors open.

At the end of the day, it's a game and there are plenty of others out there I can play, so whatever they decide isn't going to change my life overly much.

If we removed ghost heat and used restricted hardpoints instead people would just go and use the warhawk and hill hump or whatever doesn't really seem like much of an improvement. there are plenty of stock mechs that can break the game. you can completely remove the mechlab and this game would still be easy to break.

[R Razor]

pwnface, on 24 June 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

I think Ghogiel is making valid points here and you come off as a big QQ other players are too good at the game nerf everyone so I don't suck crybaby. No matter how they balance MWO there will always be an optimal set of weapons that the "competitive" players gravitate to. Unless you improve yourself as a player (learn how to meta) you will continue to get spanked no matter what the metagame is.

Yes, because the opinion of a 14 year old (at least that's generally the mental age of folks using terms like Pwnd anyway) is very important to me, run along kid and play your meta..........I have no desire to do so. My "meta" mechs (with the exception of a 2 ERLL Raven) sit and collect dust, they are not fun, they bring no real value to the game and my self worth and self esteem is high enough that I don't feel the need to try to prove it by button pushing my way to an easy win.

Blacksoul1987, on 24 June 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

If we removed ghost heat and used restricted hardpoints instead people would just go and use the warhawk and hill hump or whatever doesn't really seem like much of an improvement. there are plenty of stock mechs that can break the game. you can completely remove the mechlab and this game would still be easy to break.

Yes, without additional controls in place to prevent it, you are absolutely correct. Require tonnage matching AND implement a BV system that works and you curb those issues dramatically though.

The bottom line is that there are innumerable ways PGI could make it work without alienating huge chunks of their player base, they just have not yet chosen to do so.

[pwnface]

I'm not asking for you to prove yourself to anyone ( not that you would be able to ), I'm just stating that your QQ reeks of a bad player. If your argument was poptarting isn't fun and we should further balance the game to reduce the effectiveness of poptarting that would be perfectly reasonable. However, saying poptarting takes no skill make this game more skill based is completely different. I think the real issues PGI is having in "alienating their player base" are not making good on their promises for CW as well as sticking low ELO "i hate the meta" players in matches with 4-man groups that play competitively. Dropping against multiple premades with top-tier players is especially painful when I don't recognize a single name on my team.

[Blacksoul1987]

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

Yes, because the opinion of a 14 year old (at least that's generally the mental age of folks using terms like Pwnd anyway) is very important to me, run along kid and play your meta..........I have no desire to do so. My "meta" mechs (with the exception of a 2 ERLL Raven) sit and collect dust, they are not fun, they bring no real value to the game and my self worth and self esteem is high enough that I don't feel the need to try to prove it by button pushing my way to an easy win.




Yes, without additional controls in place to prevent it, you are absolutely correct. Require tonnage matching AND implement a BV system that works and you curb those issues dramatically though.

The bottom line is that there are innumerable ways PGI could make it work without alienating huge chunks of their player base, they just have not yet chosen to do so.

explain your BV system please. I have played many games with battle value systems all of them have massive exploits as well including CBT. Also I really don't like that you are allowed to fire multiple large caliber weapons simultaneously with no consequence, recoil was a thing in battletech, mechs typically chainfired most of their weapons, this constant alpha strike gameplay we have now is BS and is responsible for most of the problems in this game.

[Ghogiel]

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

That's all you've got?

My points are made...........please continue to exploit the mechanics I referenced and feel as though you are actually competing and accomplishing something with your time. The rest of us will continue to wait on CW and hope that PGI sees the issue with allowing your mindset to control the game whilst keeping our wallets closed.

Either they will make adequate adjustments and retain a broad spectrum player base, or they will continue to allow you and yours to dictate the direction the game goes and have to hope that you uber competitive players spend enough to allow them to keep the doors open.

At the end of the day, it's a game and there are plenty of others out there I can play, so whatever they decide isn't going to change my life overly much.

I don't need anything else to point out the premise to your argument is wrong. There is no reason that earning money from MWO is a requirement for it to be competitive. Unless you have a rather imaginative definition of competitive.

Edited by Ghogiel, 24 June 2014 - 04:44 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2014 - 03:17 AM, said:

Police me lol, don't think so. I didn't ruin any chance of open mindedness from anyone, it was like that when I got here. Just look players posting in here about not wanting to use practical solutions involving systems already in the game ie ghost heat mechanic and chassis quirks and don't want it to balanced at the top. The reasons forwarded as to why is they don't care about winning as well then having no understanding that balancing at the top is balancing the game as a whole.

Fact of the matter is this is a competitive game and universally every book written on the matter and successful comp game balances around the top. For actual reasons, not just I don't care about winning or balance, don't touch my TBR what's wrong that it being a super saiyan CTF 3D!?

Balance from the top, only works if there is some sort of progression, which MWO doesn't have, or skill based balance from the top.

If all weapons/mechs where actually balanced based on how the best of the best use them, with all weapons/mechs being available from the start, the easiest to use weapons/mechs would be severly unbalanced in all but the top skill range. This means almost all of the players are having large imbalance issues, but the answer is L2P. Unfortunatly, not even the majority of players are going to reach the top, so the game would remain unbalanced to all but the 1%-5%, which isn't any sort of balance.

If certain weapons/mechs have clear advantages, but take immense skill to use, that is balance.

If certain weapon/mechs are only available apon some sort of progression, then the skill teirs can be separated, and we won't have some complaining about a certain weapon being powerful at the low end, but useless at the high end.

[meteorol]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Our first lesson: We saw this with the Locust in the Inner Sphere. That viability has now reached other light 'Mechs. Armor given to 25, 30, and even 35 tonners has now become almost meaningless. Lights are almost cornered exclusively into a end of game clean-up role. They can no longer use their speed to take small amounts of damage and dodge many shots, and risk being the squirrel to the dog that is the enemy team. They have lost that role as 'Mechs.

I somehow remembered this when i launched a game 5 minutes ago, seeing a big fat 0% (!) light mechs being used. It went up to 7% after the 1 game i played, but it's still something i never saw before. Before the clans i saw about 15-20% (with 15-17 being more common) light mechs at most times i played. Now it's more like 8-16. While those 0% was an exception, it's still somewhat shocking.

Edited by meteorol, 24 June 2014 - 04:56 AM.

[pwnface]

It really sucks to be hit with that 50pt direwolf alpha in a light mech . I feel that light mechs are really only viable with ppcs or ERLL at this point, getting close enough to use anything else makes you a really easy target for a skilled direwolf pilot. The direwolf does sacrifice a ton of speed though to have that kind of killing potential.

[Forte]

meteorol, on 24 June 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

I somehow remembered this when i launched a game 5 minutes ago, seeing a big fat 0% (!) light mechs being used. It went up to 7% after the 1 game i played, but it's still something i never saw before. Before the clans i saw about 15-20% (with 15-17 being more common) light mechs at most times i played. Now it's more like 8-16. While those 0% was an exception, it's still somewhat shocking.

Well considering we just had a release a week ago of 8 new mechs, with the general consensus being that the Light mechs included in said pack being low armored Mediums, yeah we aren't seeing a lot of lights. This happens in every game that gives a lot of new and shiny at once. Wow had Death Knights, then Monks, they were literally everywhere (like Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves now). Give it time, things will normalize after people have had their fill of new mechs and gravitate back to their favorite.

pwnface, on 24 June 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

It really sucks to be hit with that 50pt direwolf alpha in a light mech . I feel that light mechs are really only viable with ppcs or ERLL at this point, getting close enough to use anything else makes you a really easy target for a skilled direwolf pilot. The direwolf does sacrifice a ton of speed though to have that kind of killing potential.

That is the risk/reward you pay for being 150kph. I still feel lights have way too much firepower for their speed, and taking it to the face from a Dire Wolf if you want to get close is just your cross to bear unfortunately. Just like that Dire Wolf is screwed if you get behind him.

Edited by Forte, 24 June 2014 - 05:09 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Bobzilla, on 24 June 2014 - 04:44 AM, said:

Balance from the top, only works if there is some sort of progression, which MWO doesn't have, or skill based balance from the top.

If all weapons/mechs where actually balanced based on how the best of the best use them, with all weapons/mechs being available from the start, the easiest to use weapons/mechs would be severly unbalanced in all but the top skill range. This means almost all of the players are having large imbalance issues, but the answer is L2P. Unfortunatly, not even the majority of players are going to reach the top, so the game would remain unbalanced to all but the 1%-5%, which isn't any sort of balance.

If certain weapons/mechs have clear advantages, but take immense skill to use, that is balance.

If certain weapon/mechs are only available apon some sort of progression, then the skill teirs can be separated, and we won't have some complaining about a certain weapon being powerful at the low end, but useless at the high end.

Your assertion is that because there is no progression in MWO that balancing from the top down doesn't work. Odd. Other games do it. Every book written on the matter disagrees with your assertion as well.

[pwnface]

Forte, on 24 June 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Well considering we just had a release a week ago of 8 new mechs, with the general consensus being that the Light mechs included in said pack being low armored Mediums, yeah we aren't seeing a lot of lights. This happens in every game that gives a lot of new and shiny at once. Wow had Death Knights, then Monks, they were literally everywhere (like Timber Wolves and Dire Wolves now). Give it time, things will normalize after people have had their fill of new mechs and gravitate back to their favorite.



That is the risk/reward you pay for being 150kph. I still feel lights have way too much firepower for their speed, and taking it to the face from a Dire Wolf if you want to get close is just your cross to bear unfortunately. Just like that Dire Wolf is screwed if you get behind him.

I'm not complaining just trying to bring to light a reason why there may be fewer light mechs around, I have no issue dancing with a Dire Wolf in my no-armor 2xppc spider

[pwnface]

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

Your assertion is that because there is no progression in MWO that balancing from the top down doesn't work. Odd. Other games do it. Every book written on the matter disagrees with your assertion as well.

I think progression or ( time put in the game ) in general leads to increased skill. The real issue is not having the top 5% of players in the same matches as brand new players who don't have a clue how their weapons work. Some of my must fun matches have been two high level premade groups on each team. On the other hand having a LORD or SJR premade on the same team as my own premade against ZERO names i recognize on the other team is almost always a 12-0 wipe (boring). In my opinion matchmaking definitely needs to be improved more than weapon balance right now for a better overall experience for the average player. Sometimes I really question what kind of disgusting matchmaking formula would make such ridiculous mismatches.

[Bobzilla]

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

Your assertion is that because there is no progression in MWO that balancing from the top down doesn't work. Odd. Other games do it. Every book written on the matter disagrees with your assertion as well.

You'll have to tell me what games have no progression limits and you end up having vets mixed with new players.

Also, I admit I haven't gone over any books on the matter, let alone every one. Maybe you can quote some.

[Ghogiel]

pwnface, on 24 June 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

I think progression or ( time put in the game ) in general leads to increased skill. The real issue is not having the top 5% of players in the same matches as brand new players who don't have a clue how their weapons work. Some of my must fun matches have been two high level premade groups on each team. On the other hand having a LORD or SJR premade on the same team as my own premade against ZERO names i recognize on the other team is almost always a 12-0 wipe (boring). In my opinion matchmaking definitely needs to be improved more than weapon balance right now for a better overall experience for the average player. Sometimes I really question what kind of disgusting matchmaking formula would make such ridiculous mismatches.

Well yeah. I can just look at the names on either side and have a good idea of who is going to win. Yeah MM needs work. MWO needs work all over the shop.

[Gyrok]

Ghogiel, on 24 June 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

Your assertion is that because there is no progression in MWO that balancing from the top down doesn't work. Odd. Other games do it. Every book written on the matter disagrees with your assertion as well.

Top down balance is a valid approach, however, this is not top down balance. Top down balance would have to require that the top weapons had some sort of meaningful drawbacks for being the top weapons. In MWO top weapons are IS AC (ammo req is not a drawback really), and IS PPC which runs far too cool right now.

[R Razor]

Blacksoul1987, on 24 June 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

explain your BV system please. I have played many games with battle value systems all of them have massive exploits as well including CBT. Also I really don't like that you are allowed to fire multiple large caliber weapons simultaneously with no consequence, recoil was a thing in battletech, mechs typically chainfired most of their weapons, this constant alpha strike gameplay we have now is BS and is responsible for most of the problems in this game.

I don't have a BV setup in mind, but then I'm not a game designer and don't claim to be one. I am a player, I play this game because of the history of the IP. I do however know that there was a BV in place in this IP in the past and, given that PGI has been able to modify the original TT version enough to bring it to a computer, there should be no real reason they couldn't do the same with that aspect of it. Another game I played in my past gaming days was called Star Fleet Battles, it too used a Battle Point Value......the capability exists, it's up to the designers to modify and fit it to their game.

I do agree with you with regards to recoil and other physics related issues that would help moderate the meta to a degree, though I'm not sure that PGI is capable of inserting these into the game without breaking something else. For that matter, I don't even know for sure that Crytek can handle it given some of the other issues it seems to have, although I do see mechs that are hit with AC-20 shells rock back or to the side so who knows.

As my W/L and KDR both continue to be well above 1.0, having an infantile button pusher insist that I make my posts because I lose all the time means absolutely nothing.........the mere fact that they continue to make such claims only further emphasizes the fact that they have nothing to fall back on to back up their arguments. Button pushers in all games utilize the same tactics in an effort to defend the indefensible so it's not unique or surprising, just pathetic.