894 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Gyrok, on 22 June 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Was studio head for this project before I took another offer:

https://www.kickstar...?ref=nav_search

They are not to market yet, but I am working on a new project similar to it now...

But what games that actually exist have you designed?

[Monky]

Going to repost my feedback from the clan public test; still feel it all holds true;
AC2's of all kinds; we've run into a problem where the uAC2 is incompatible with ghostheat, it simply fires too fast and double tapping will always generate ghostheat unless the cooldown is longer than a second. The Direwolf is unimpressed by attempts to reel in AC2 boating as well. The solution for this weapon is a simple rework of how it fires. Here is the default AC2 mechanic template I recommend;
Rate of fire 1.5 seconds, isAC2 fires a 3 round burst of shells that do 2 damage per bullet, providing the same damage output as it used to before ghost heat became an issue. cAC2 and cUAC2 can fire a 6 shot burst for 1 damage per bullet to provide a disadvantage for their weight savings compared to isAC2's. With this method, it is no longer necessary to drop the AC2's DPS output to unreasonable levels to get around the issues with ghost heat, in fact it allows it to work pretty much exactly as it used to and ghost heat can remain intact, while still allowing room during the 1.5 second cooldown for uAC2's to work. LB2-X's should also be included in this schema.



Pinpoint weapons in general; The solution to pinpoint ballistics/PPC's being outright superior is realized in the burst AC mechanic.
Recommended changes to incorporate this;
isAC5 - 2 round burst, 2.5 damage per pellet
isUAC5 - 2 round burst, 2.5 damage per pellet
isAC20 - 2 round burst, 10 damage per pellet
isGauss - 2 round burst, 7.5 damage per pellet

I left out the 10 and 2 because they are actually somewhat inferior in the lineup of weapons due to a variety of factors, and have not been credited with contributing to any of the 'pinpoint alpha' problems. If needed the AC10 can take a 2 round burst for 5 damage per pellet, but I genuinely feel it is not necessary.

cAC5 - slight projectile speed increase or decrease to the period of time inbetween bullets in a burst
cAC10 - 3 round burst instead of 4
cAC20 - 3 or 4 round burst instead of 5, if 4 is chosen, please buff projectile speed or decrease period of time between bullets in a burst
cUAC5 - slight projectile speed increase or decrease to the period of time inbetween bullets in a burst
cUAC10 - 3 round burst instead of 4
cUAC20 - 3 or 4 round burst instead of 5, if 4 is chosen, please buff projectile speed or decrease period of time between bullets in a burst
cGauss - 3 round burst with decreased period of time between bullets in a burst

As for the PPC, the other component to the pinpoint meta, the arcing mechanic seems fine but needs to be expanded;
isPPC - 5 damage, 2.5 damage arc to 2 components
isERPPC - 5 damage, 2.5 damage arc to 2 components
cERPPC - 7.5 damage, 3.75 damage arc to 2 components

THERE! IT IS FIXED! ALL OF THE PINPOINT WOES ARE REDUCED TO RUBBLE AND THE VAIN DREAM OF THE ONE SHOT META IS DEAD!

[Nauht]

They touch the TW and it will definitely be the absolute last I spend money on this game.

You buy something with real money and it WILL be nerfed is not a good sales pitch.

PGI set a dangerous precedent that when they offered the DS on sale one week prior to the Victor nerfs.
They knew what was planned for Victors and yet they put the DS on sale prior to milk out every single cent.

Well now we know better and if the TW or any bought mech is nerfed it will just reinforce the position that paying real money for mechs isn't worth it at all in MWO.

As to the rest of the hoopla, all I see is someone trying to push their own agenda through with the pretense of "balance".

[Wolfways]

Nauht, on 22 June 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

They touch the TW and it will definitely be the absolute last I spend money on this game.

You buy something with real money and it WILL be nerfed is not a good sales pitch.

PGI set a dangerous precedent that when they offered the DS on sale one week prior to the Victor nerfs.
They knew what was planned for Victors and yet they put the DS on sale prior to milk out every single cent.

Well now we know better and if the TW or any bought mech is nerfed it will just reinforce the position that paying real money for mechs isn't worth it at all in MWO.

As to the rest of the hoopla, all I see is someone trying to push their own agenda through with the pretense of "balance".

You didn't buy the mech, you bought "early use", and other stuff if you bought a package. The mech still belongs to PGI.
Besides, did you really think that would be balanced before release, or that it wouldn't be "adjusted"?

[Gyrok]

Roland, on 22 June 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

But what games that actually exist have you designed?

I have contributed to games, but nothing that was outright my "design" from start to finish. I suppose your question, more appropriately, would be what games have I worked on...?

I contributed to balance/design on City of Heroes, though the studio shut down before my work was fully implemented...issue 24 did not release, and my content was to come in issue 25. I designed a psionic melee powerset that was supposed to be in that issue. The .pigg files for the game already had early implementations, though the balance, testing, and full implementation was not done...the animations were ready...and some of the mechanics were hashed out already...but it was not yet complete in the engineering phase...also the psionic defense set had not yet been implemented into the actual game itself...

http://cityofheroes....i/Psionic_Melee

Edited by Gyrok, 22 June 2014 - 07:24 PM.

[Roland]

The reason I'm asking is because loss of people are technically game designers, but the only time such a credential actually matters is when one demonstrates an ability to actually design GOOD things.

I mean, hell, Paul is technically a game designer.

[Gyrok]

LOL...I suppose you have something of a point there...

[N0MAD]

heimdelight, on 22 June 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Actually, I'd argue that someone who is at the top of competitive play is there for a reason. In order to be there, they'd have to understand general game strategy and mechanics for movement on the map, and how 'Mechs work in order to take them out more efficiently or identify them faster. They also have to build their own 'Mechs, and use it to their advantage.

I would Argue differently. As part of a gaming group that has played many games over the last 20 years in many competitive arenas i know for a fact that many competitive players are carried by others in games, these not so elite players are more often than not carried by team mates and are supplied builds and tactics by said team mates.
You see this even more in a Game like MWO where there is basically little competition for the 1/2 dozen or so called competitive teams mainly playing 90% of their games in an unorganized pug Q.
This is also more the case in a scenario where the situation allows for practically no Tactical play because Maps meta weapons dont allow it.
I watch the high end games in the Tournies, really? top tier Groups? where 90%+ of the games were Jump snipers spamming Air/Arty?, i suppose youre right these guys have certainly got elite at jump, shoot, drop a strike, and very good at design, let see i need to add JJ, PPC, AC/Gauss. These are the people who classify themselves as knowledgeable in game? really?.
Competitive play where there is under a dozen so called competitive teams in the whole game? that is competitive?

[Groove Crusader Blue]

I have only read the first two pages of this thread and i laugh at the guy who started all this sh!t. i have been dropping quite a lot with the clans over the last week and find they are not OP in any shape or form, well i do have issues with the torso twist on the Mad Cat. yesterday i dropped solely with IS mechs and was doing the same amount of damage as the clans.

my SRMaggedon golden boy with 3 srm 6's and 1 srm'4 was eating dem pesky clan mechs like they were nothing.
the high dps 2 ultra 5 and ac2 banshee was blowing torso after torso on the clans.

i felt like i was doing better with my IS mechs than clan. and where i find people go wrong is that all the meta builds FAIL against any clan mechs the encounter. an ac40 jager is outclassed by pretty much every clan mech there. it feels like the people that are complaing are the ones with meta builds and they want there sh!tty meta builds to work again.

and for thos of you that are not using meta builds and are failing against clans, well thats a player based error. i was able to drop 15 times on sunday and nearly every game i was killing clan mechs. the games i didn't get da kill was when i was getting mangled by an army of mixed is and clan or some runt stole my kill.

so please. if you think the clans are OP stop playing or stop whining and play this suprisingly well balanced game and dont F\/ck it up for me.
thank you, hope to play with the non whiners on this thread

[RaKa]

mrx, on 22 June 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

I have only read the first two pages of this thread and i laugh at the guy who started all this sh!t. i have been dropping quite a lot with the clans over the last week and find they are not OP in any shape or form, well i do have issues with the torso twist on the Mad Cat. yesterday i dropped solely with IS mechs and was doing the same amount of damage as the clans.

my SRMaggedon golden boy with 3 srm 6's and 1 srm'4 was eating dem pesky clan mechs like they were nothing.
the high dps 2 ultra 5 and ac2 banshee was blowing torso after torso on the clans.

i felt like i was doing better with my IS mechs than clan. and where i find people go wrong is that all the meta builds FAIL against any clan mechs the encounter. an ac40 jager is outclassed by pretty much every clan mech there. it feels like the people that are complaing are the ones with meta builds and they want there sh!tty meta builds to work again.

and for thos of you that are not using meta builds and are failing against clans, well thats a player based error. i was able to drop 15 times on sunday and nearly every game i was killing clan mechs. the games i didn't get da kill was when i was getting mangled by an army of mixed is and clan or some runt stole my kill.

so please. if you think the clans are OP stop playing or stop whining and play this suprisingly well balanced game and dont F\/ck it up for me.
thank you, hope to play with the non whiners on this thread

Yeah. I paid money for these mechs. I DONT want my clan mechs to be nerfed where as it conveniences top play. Like taking out the S because its omnipods can mount JJ's? **** that. If that happens give me my refund. I paid for these mechs, I expect to have what was promised.

[HeavyRain]

Clan mechs are not Pay-to-Win.
They are Pay-to-Win-until-November.
I fully expect the wallet warriors to fight for their bought right to get easy wins for as long as possible, so threads like this are going to fall on deaf ears.
Save your time and keep using your Timberwolf poptart, nobody is going to listen to you.

[Koniks]

I agree with Bishop that the competitive players are great for ferreting out and exploiting unbalanced game mechanics. And I agree that ability doesn't mean they know what to do to bring balance to the game.

Competitive players clearly have superior twitch skills. Most of them also have superior situational awareness. And they've complemented those with an ability to manage heat. This is reflected in their support for game mechanics that reward those abilities.

Yes, pinpoint, frontloaded damage, and convergence have a big effect on time to kill. But the real underlying issue is the out of control alphas. Koniving's posted at great length about the flawed heat system that allows us to fire 2 ERPPCs without shutting down. Our heat cap is too high and increases with the number of heat sinks. While dissipation is too low.

This is reversed from how it should be. The heat cap should be lowered to prevent firing 2 ERPPCs at once or in quick succession without shutting down and taking heat damage. Dissipation for heat sinks should be increased. And the heat scale should include penalties.

The game would then advantage sustained DPS builds but it'd be a lot easier to balance around a constant heat cap. There'd be a clearer trade off between the tonnage it requires to run cool, PPFLD kit and hotter DPS options.

Edited by Mizeur, 22 June 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[luigi256]

Wait is this post about high tier tournament style players that use poptarts and long range pin point damage mechs all day every day?

I'll just let myself out and continue playing in the lower ELO and enjoy the game.

[Rando Slim]

Well hate me all you want but I agree somewhat with the OP. I CHOOSE not to play the game that way because is a poor use of my money (i.e. not fun), but it is and has been the best way to go about it. Just wait until all the comp teams master out their t-wolves and you'll see the problem. Plus even in my tier, I see 3-4 timberwolves on each side every match and its getting old fast. Theres a reason they are so popular.......then after you play a t-wolf go play an Adder and come back and tell me there isnt a problem. When you can't outrun a 75 ton mech in a 30 ton mech theres a problem. There is a definite correlation between the number of Timberwolves on a team and how often it wins. IS wolfpacks in 4 man pug situations will do ok, maybe even rip face for a few games. But all in all light mechs and medium mechs have had their viability even further reduced, TTK is definitely less now and engagement range HAS increased despite srm fixes, even at mid-level ELO where I'm at. We have temporarily cemented the heavy/assault choice as he only sensible things to bring most of the time, though hopefully they get 3/3/3/3 right (as heavy-handed as that might be). And frankly, yes long beam times will in the end incentivize more use of the C-ERPPC, its only logical. I think the OP was acknowledging the brokenness of all that.

I do disagree on some of the clan nerfs, I think lasers are fine, pulse lasers need a slight buff. The game needs skill based mechanics for all weapons. I like the burst fire ACs, I think PPCs need a charge up time like the Gauss or an arcing trajectory. I think some people misread the OP and I think he was calling to bring IS pop-tart meta in line by doing things like making IS ACs burst fire. But whatev. I also disagree that the tiny fraction of comp players should he a disproportionate voice in anything. Anyone of any skill level or pay-in amount can make a valid point if they have a lot of experience playing. 12 mans aren't fun or played by many, so why warp the entire balance of the game around it?

Furthermore, I can live with bad weapon balance,just give me some new maps, game-modes, 3/3/3/3, and CW.at this point. I don't care if its not perfectly balanced, jump sniping takes some skill so I can deal with it.

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 22 June 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

The OP acknowledges the problem, a deep-rooted underlying mechanic that makes certain damage delivery systems exceed others in efficiency and power. And then promptly ignores the underlying mechanic that is problematic in the first place, in favor of targeted mechanical fixes that have gross effects on the game he's not playing.

Ghost heat on 2 C/ER PPCs? Where is the Warhawk now? Where's the Dire Wolf B? It's already challenging to keep these 'mechs from shutting down and still sling respectable damage, why make it impossible? Let's not even mention the Adder Prime, which suffers not only from low armor and low foot speed but would also eat massive ghost heat.

Furthermore, where is the ghost heat for 2+ IS PPCs? These are clearly the dominant weapons in the current top tier game, so why not bring them back to parity?

If you do, what happens to the Awesome?

Oh yeah, that's right, the Awesome and the Warhawk aren't competitive tier 'mechs, so they shouldn't be considered in any balancing decisions. The fact of the matter is that competitive players don't think about these 'mechs at all, except maybe on pug night for the luls.

So forget the 'Mechs and forget the weapons. They need balance tuning, fine. But the problem expressed here is ultimately a game mechanic that creates dramatically different tiers of chassis - pinpoint damage. The ability to lay down all of your weapons on a single point in a single trigger pull is the root and core of the power of PPCs, clan or not, especially while engaged in peeking actions such as jump jetting and rapid cornering. And that game mechanic is what needs to be addressed, not the Timber Wolf's (or the Victor's) nimble torso twist or the C/ERPPC's ghost heat values, or the amount of damage you take to the feet when you land. All of those bandaid fixes hurt other 'mechs and other tactics far, far more than they succeed at reducing the viability of the top tier jump sniping metagame.

The consequences of the changes in the Original Post reach much, much further than tournament play, from lore monkeys like myself who think a Warhawk Prime without 4 PPCs is just a disappointment, to dedicated brawlers who are just disgusted with the dominance of jump sniping. Also, understanding the consequences all the way down the ladder from the scrubbiest newb who doesn't know why he got LRMs all over his face when he was just capping Theta on Terra Therma all the way up to tournament winners will also help reveal why more tactics never even have a chance to reach the upper tiers of play.

[Edit - cleared up wording]

Edited by GreyGriffin, 22 June 2014 - 09:57 PM.

[N0MAD]

I wont comment on the state of a TWs balance, but really do you think any balance is going to be worked on on this or other chassis when these said chassis are PGIs source of income for the next 4 months.
I doubt anything will be worked on till the C Bill variants are available, giving the the pre purchase players their $ worth..
Of course by then a NEW pack will be available for $, so the P2W now stream of mechs will continue to bring in revenue.

[TOGSolid]

Mizeur, on 22 June 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

I agree with Bishop that the competitive players are great for ferreting out and exploiting unbalanced game mechanics. And I agree that ability doesn't mean they know what to do to bring balance to the game.

Competitive players clearly have superior twitch skills. Most of them also have superior situational awareness. And they've complemented those with an ability to manage heat. This is reflected in their support for game mechanics that reward those abilities.

Yes, pinpoint, frontloaded damage, and convergence have a big effect on time to kill. But the real underlying issue is the out of control alphas. Koniving's posted at great length about the flawed heat system that allows us to fire 2 ERPPCs without shutting down. Our heat cap is too high and increases with the number of heat sinks. While dissipation is too low.

This is reversed from how it should be. The heat cap should be lowered to prevent firing 2 ERPPCs at once or in quick succession without shutting down and taking heat damage. Dissipation for heat sinks should be increased. And the heat scale should include penalties.

The game would then advantage sustained DPS builds but it'd be a lot easier to balance around a constant heat cap. There'd be a clearer trade off between the tonnage it requires to run cool, PPFLD kit and hotter DPS options.

The heat and the pinpoint issue are two sides of the same coin. Both of them need to be addressed for things to get brought in line. Fix the heat issue and we go back to the style of the early days with Gauss Cats roaming the high plains, only these days we have way more mechs that can run that. Though, one could argue then that the Buckaroo Banzai-ish third side of the coin is how we can fit whatever the **** we want into the hardpoints with no regard for size.

Edited by TOGSolid, 22 June 2014 - 09:34 PM.

[N0MAD]

R Razor, on 22 June 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Post a pay stub showing how much real money you've won as a "comp" "Top Tier" " Uber Mech Warrior".......until you do, you're just a mouth behind a keyboard with a rather unexceptional ability to exploit bad game designs and shoot at digital images on a computer screen...........between that and your paper delivery job you may earn enough to pay for your acne treatments, but your opinion is most certainly no more valid than anyone else playing this game.

Just quoting this because apart from being a very valid post.. its just damm funny.

[Koniks]

TOGSolid, on 22 June 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

The heat and the pinpoint issue are two sides of the same coin. Both of them need to be addressed for things to get brought in line. Fix the heat issue and we go back to the style of the early days with Gauss Cats roaming the high plains, only these days we have way more mechs that can run that. Though, one could argue then that the Buckaroo Banzai-ish third side of the coin is how we can fit whatever the **** we want into the hardpoints with no regard for size.

I think concerns about Gauss boating are overstated. Most builds with it are either ammo or armor-limited. The Dire Wolf is slow as molasses. It now has Gauss-only alpha cap of 30 damage. And it has a charge mechanic which reduced its DPS and raised the skill cap.

The same way that AC40 mechs were a concern but not ridiculous unless you take 3 lances of them into the Forest Colony tunnel in Skirmish mode.

If the Gauss remains OP'd, then the next problem to tackle is map design which disadvantages close ranged weapons.

[Sh4nk0h0l1c]

Quote

You know what would fix it all? Would fix this whole massive alpha strike blowing entire torsos off? Without resorting to the ridiculous excess of Ghost Heat for 2 PPCs?

::looks left::

::looks right::

::leans in and whispers::

Cone of fire.

Guess what. Specific weapons aren't the problem. Pinpoint accuracy with multiple weapons is the problem. Eliminate that and you don't need to jack up every weapon in the game to warp around the mindset of pixel perfect marksmanship.

AMEN !!!

PS: I would also add some penalties for loosing a sidetorso in a clanmech... 20*% Speed-reduction + 20*% base-heat ??? !!!

*to be changed in terms of balance...

Anyone??

Edited by Sh4nk0h0l1c, 22 June 2014 - 09:57 PM.