178 replies to this topic

[AztecD]

consumable like Artys

target a mech, get set damage spread out evenly with a nice animation

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Just so we are clear on just what a single Elemental can be equipped with.
- And they work in groups of 5 as a 'Star' 'Point'
(special note: A Point of Battle Armour/Elementals train specifically to operate with one 'Mech, when deployed they function to work with that single 'Mech. Similar to 'close support Infantry' and Tanks.)

Elementals can be equipped with three types of devices and the arm mounts are interchangeable.

• 1x Detachable SRM-2
  
• 1x Modular Weapon Mount
  
• 1x Anti-Personnel Weapon Mount

- Micro Pulse Laser / 3 damage, but very short range.
- Small Laser / 3 damage, very short range.
- Machine Gun / 2 damage, per volley, again very short range.
- Flamer / 2 damage, thermal, very short range.
- Battle Claw / capable of rending armor off of a 'Mech, or hanging on to the handholds found on Omnimechs.
- Detachable SRM-2 / 2 damage / missile, (4 reloads per launcher. And can use inferno ammo)

That's a possible full strike of 7 damage not counting the armour ripping claw, per Elemental.
(35 damage to a single spot if they all center in it, that could be a headshot kill on one attack.)
- They are not looking so friendly or fun to have around now, are they.
- Engineered Pilots specifically breed for these suits and having no fear about jumping directly onto an Enemy 'Mech to 'bring the hurt'. (once clamped onto an Enemy 'Mech they would be inside any weapons arc and very difficult to dislodge.)

As a note here: Elementals 'from Lore' were fully able to take a dead center Large Laser hit and continue to function. Very tough and combined with 'HarJel' very difficult to 'one shot'.

Just some info,
Aim True and Run Cool,
9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 14 January 2015 - 10:55 AM.

[mad kat]

We already have elementals they're called spiders..

If elementals were introduced, albiet they are cool but smoke would very quickly start billowing from the servers as the game and forums alike erupted with rage. This game is not set up in the slightest to handle elementals.

As much as i think elementals are cool in lore in the game they would be nothing short of a royal pain in the arse especially with hit registration the way it is. So i vote no.

[Mordric]

it would have to work some thing like a UAV,AirStrike, or Arty..

[Quaamik]

9erRed, on 12 January 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

Greetings all,

Just so we are clear on just what a single Elemental can be equipped with...............


- They are not looking so friendly or fun to have around now, are they.
- Engineered Pilots specifically breed for these suits and having no fear about jumping directly onto an Enemy 'Mech to 'bring the hurt'. (once clamped onto an Enemy 'Mech they would be inside any weapons arc and very difficult to dislodge.)

All true to lore. But we threw cannon and lore out of the window in this game around the time we transitioned from tabletop to a first person shooter.

Option A)
We don't have elementals, infantry, tanks, gunships or other vehicles. That breaks from lore / cannon.

Wait .... we have option A now......

Option
We get PGI to add those and insist they make them strictly per lore / cannon. The elementals, being impossible to target / destroy with the current game engine mechanics, break the game and MWO goes away. Kinda dumb. About as dumb as insisting that clan mechs be so overpowered as to trounce IS mechs on a 1 v 1 every time.

Option C)
We get PGI to implement elementals (and maybe combat vehicles) in a way that enhances the game, even if it gimps those units.

Personally, I like option C.

There is no reason elementals (as a deployable, rather than playable unit) would have to be powerful enough to shred a mech. Reduce their damage per second to a level where a star of 5 becomes a harassment. Something you can't stand in long term, but could move through quickly without more damage than taking a flight of missiles.

I'm thinking somewhere around 1 point of damage / 4 seconds per elemental. So a star would deliver around 10 points of damage to a fast mech (85 kph = 24 mps) when one ran through the middle of their "zone". Slow mechs (50 kph = 14 mps) might get as much as 30 points of damage. Not something you can ignore, but not a mech killer if you move through and don't stand there.

Let every mech deploy one if they want (instead arty / airstrike). Let multiple friendly "drops" deploy on the same ground, and enemy "drops" eliminate individual elementals on a 1 for 1 basis.

How they would be used (assume multiple stars are deployed by multiple friendly mechs on the same area):

- deploy 1 star - 5points damage / 4 seconds
Area denial of a sniper hidey hole.
Harassment within a pass.

- deploy 2 stars - 10 points damage / 4 seconds
heavy harassment of a pass, requiring light mechs to move through at speed.
Turns a sniper hidey hole into a serious hazard for light mechs, and effectively denies it to all mechs

- deploy 3 stars - 15 points of damage / 4 seconds
turns a sniper hidey hole into a deathtrap for light mechs and serious hazard for heavier mechs
practical area denial of a pass to all but the fastest mechs

- deploy 4 stars - 20 points of damage / 4 seconds
turns a sniper hidey hole into a deathtrap - period
Area denial of a pass to all enemy mechs

All that would be until countered, by either an opposing elemental drop, any arty or airstrike, individual targeting / killing elementals, or (maybe) a flight or several of LRMs on that zone.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

I think the idea of Elementals are great in all but with the hit reg continuing to be as bad as what it is despite being "Fixed" would make them stupidly OP and even worse then the IS light mechs

Funny how other games even mods like Living legends didn't suffer so bad when it came to hit reg issues

[JadeTimberwolf]

Quaamik, on 12 January 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

All true to lore. But we threw cannon and lore out of the window in this game around the time we transitioned from tabletop to a first person shooter.

Option A)
We don't have elementals, infantry, tanks, gunships or other vehicles. That breaks from lore / cannon.

Wait .... we have option A now......

Option
We get PGI to add those and insist they make them strictly per lore / cannon. The elementals, being impossible to target / destroy with the current game engine mechanics, break the game and MWO goes away. Kinda dumb. About as dumb as insisting that clan mechs be so overpowered as to trounce IS mechs on a 1 v 1 every time.

Option C)
We get PGI to implement elementals (and maybe combat vehicles) in a way that enhances the game, even if it gimps those units.

Personally, I like option C.

There is no reason elementals (as a deployable, rather than playable unit) would have to be powerful enough to shred a mech. Reduce their damage per second to a level where a star of 5 becomes a harassment. Something you can't stand in long term, but could move through quickly without more damage than taking a flight of missiles.

I'm thinking somewhere around 1 point of damage / 4 seconds per elemental. So a star would deliver around 10 points of damage to a fast mech (85 kph = 24 mps) when one ran through the middle of their "zone". Slow mechs (50 kph = 14 mps) might get as much as 30 points of damage. Not something you can ignore, but not a mech killer if you move through and don't stand there.

Let every mech deploy one if they want (instead arty / airstrike). Let multiple friendly "drops" deploy on the same ground, and enemy "drops" eliminate individual elementals on a 1 for 1 basis.

How they would be used (assume multiple stars are deployed by multiple friendly mechs on the same area):

- deploy 1 star - 5points damage / 4 seconds
Area denial of a sniper hidey hole.
Harassment within a pass.

- deploy 2 stars - 10 points damage / 4 seconds
heavy harassment of a pass, requiring light mechs to move through at speed.
Turns a sniper hidey hole into a serious hazard for light mechs, and effectively denies it to all mechs

- deploy 3 stars - 15 points of damage / 4 seconds
turns a sniper hidey hole into a deathtrap for light mechs and serious hazard for heavier mechs
practical area denial of a pass to all but the fastest mechs

- deploy 4 stars - 20 points of damage / 4 seconds
turns a sniper hidey hole into a deathtrap - period
Area denial of a pass to all enemy mechs

All that would be until countered, by either an opposing elemental drop, any arty or airstrike, individual targeting / killing elementals, or (maybe) a flight or several of LRMs on that zone.

I understand your concern on this however if Elementals(or even Inner Sphere Battle Armour) dropped as someone suggested, like deployable turrets they wouldn't be much more powerful than current turrets even if we were talking about multiple being dropped together. Plus they would be as target-able as the turrets are.

On another note, you do realize that a Star of Elementals is 25 Elemental Suits not 5? 5 Elementals is a Point.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I was curious since I don't think I saw it mentioned yet, but I was double checking how much armor and health an Elemental has.

Originally, I'm seeing that they had 10 armor and 1 HP, so if doubled for MWO that could be 20 armor and 2 HP.

Kept to those values, being smaller than turrets and going with five Elementals at a time would certainly be interesting to explore testing out.

[Mordric]

If big my pride and ego would be if I was an Elemental Pilot. but as a MechWarrior pilot, I hate the little shits. it's like swatting at fruit flies, your lucky if you manage to hit one. but for this game, they could only work as a timed deployable unit that did ex amount of damage in a short time like the air strikes. I'm pretty happy with the game as it is now. PGI any many flaws and bugs to work out in the game, but I'm sure they will get it worked out.

[DI3T3R]

I just had an idea...



- Each Elemental: half the size of a Spider, cannot be locked on, 1x ER-SL, JJ, 5 life-points

- Module, but expensive and with a long cooldown-timer.

- Deployment:
* You mark a position with your crosshair.
* A Broadsword dropship swoops in and a full Star of Elementals (that's 25) gets spawned underneath it.
* The dropship swoops out.
* The Elementals move up to 500m away from that position, but no more.
* Their commands: Shoot at nearest enemy, regardless of distance or obstacles. Jump at nearest enemy, regardless of distance or obstacles. (They wouldn't need wayfinding-algorithm. They just would keep jumping and jumping even it its fruitless.)
* After 5 minutes, the dropship again swoops in to that very same position and "picks up" the Elementals: They simply vanish into thin air.
* The dropship swoops out.


Measure: To attack an enemy who has dug in.
Counter-measure: Outrun the Elementals. Switch position.

[bedevere42]

I like the consumables idea for standard matches but I really want to drive one around. Maybe a new gamemode that incorporates pilotable elementals?

[Trashhead]

Has someone already brought up the point that Elementals have a top speed of only 10.8 Kph ?
So, while they are small, they can't move very quick.
I guess the flamer could be THE weapon of choice against them (more heat - > elemental moves even slower or can't use their JumpJets... stuff like that).
Or machine guns: creates a lot of shaking for the Elemental, so he gets essentially stun locked (-> can't move).

Both good reason to mount at least 1 MG or 1 Flamer on your mech... .
Just a thought... .

Oh, and I would like to see them as consumable, too.
But not 25, more like 5 at a time.

(Btw, since the Inner sphere won't have them until 3052 according to lore, and clans should not use Artillery because they prefer honorable combat, i would not mind seeing the clans only having Elementals, and IS only Arty strike (until 3052)).

[Silversynch]

Idea: Since a star of elementals (5 elementals) are allowed to take the place of a mech in lore, then why not just let you play as a point of elementals? Instead of waiting for 4 other players, the others are AI that follow you around and try to position themselves so they can shoot where you shoot. Since each elemental can die individually, then if the one you're leading the group with dies, it does a little fade in fade out of black to one of your AIs and give you control, until you have no more elementals.

Pros:
Play as an elemental, no 4 friends or server rewrites required!
No "let's not break the game with that much firepower in a tiny package" nerfing, since these guys take the place of a mech

Cons:
AI might get stupid
Some people will still cry for nerf

[DI3T3R]

Silversynch, on 14 January 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

Idea: Since a star of elementals (5 elementals) are allowed to take the place of a mech in lore, then why not just let you play as a point of elementals? Instead of waiting for 4 other players, the others are AI that follow you around and try to position themselves so they can shoot where you shoot. Since each elemental can die individually, then if the one you're leading the group with dies, it does a little fade in fade out of black to one of your AIs and give you control, until you have no more elementals.

Pros:
Play as an elemental, no 4 friends or server rewrites required!
No "let's not break the game with that much firepower in a tiny package" nerfing, since these guys take the place of a mech

Cons:
AI might get stupid
Some people will still cry for nerf

I once posted a similar idea.

Have you ever played tabletop BT? The Elementals are so slow that you can only use them in urban and forest maps, where the buildings, slippery paved roads and trees slow the mechs down and provide cover for the elementals. In the open field, Mechs can simply outrun run them and pick them off from afar.

That's why Elementals have to be dropped by someone/something right at the place where they are supposed to be.

The cover-issue is no problem: Just make them even smaller than a Spider and unlockable.

[30ft SMURF]

I'd love to see playable infantry/elementals, playable aerospace fighters and vechicles. Doubt it will happen, but a fully immersable war zone would be much better than 12v12. We can't even use battletech armor values or weapon damage or the game would supposedly suck so...

[Silversynch]

DI3T3R, on 15 January 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

I once posted a similar idea.

Have you ever played tabletop BT? The Elementals are so slow that you can only use them in urban and forest maps, where the buildings, slippery paved roads and trees slow the mechs down and provide cover for the elementals. In the open field, Mechs can simply outrun run them and pick them off from afar.

That's why Elementals have to be dropped by someone/something right at the place where they are supposed to be.

Or we can buff their speed and give them jump jets for long distance rather than high height.

[DI3T3R]

30ft SMURF, on 15 January 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'd love to see playable infantry/elementals,

Would drastically ramp up the amount of players needed for a match.

Quote

playable aerospace fighters

You would be flying at 150 m/s and you can't slow down. How long would it take to complete a single attack-run on a single enemy? 30 seconds? And only if everything goes according to plan.

Quote

We can't even use battletech armor values or weapon damage or the game would supposedly suck so...

That's why they had a test-phase. They found out that the game sucked that way.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

30ft SMURF, on 15 January 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

We can't even use battletech armor values or weapon damage or the game would supposedly suck so...

DI3T3R, on 16 January 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

That's why they had a test-phase. They found out that the game sucked that way.

Well, the problem was that weapon heat and damage were not properly translated into real-time. An AC/2 would just do 2 damage in 10 seconds, while a Medium Laser would do 5. And with how accuracy modifiers would impact weapons, TT turns could be extended out due to misses.

But real-time with every shot an aimed shot by players and a fast rate of fire, weapons were even more deadly in MWO CB, so armor was doubled instead of adjusting weapons.

For example MWO's AC/2 fires ~14 times in a ~10 second period able to potentially deal 28 damage, that's an increase of about 1388% give or take. A Medium Laser can fire almost ~3 times over ~10+ seconds potentially dealing 13 to 15 damage, partly mitigated by their beam durations too. So if it instead the AC/2 would fire 1 damage projectiles every 4 seconds instead (with all weapons scaled back in various ways) that would drastically reduce the damage potential and maybe allow for the original P&P armor values, for example. Of course it would need some testing and further tweaking though.

[Silversynch]

DI3T3R, on 16 January 2015 - 04:04 AM, said:

Would drastically ramp up the amount of players needed for a match.

[Points to own idea about AIs]
Even better is the AI number can easily be adjusted for IS suits, when they come. No need for players, just give you a couple of code-brains who follow your every order.

But I agree that infantry should be left as set-path cannon fodder AI. There's a reason why there's a canon acronym for soldiers: PBI, Poor Bloody Infantry. They get stepped on, shot at, swept away...

[DI3T3R]

Silversynch, on 16 January 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

[Points to own idea about AIs]
Even better is the AI number can easily be adjusted for IS suits, when they come. No need for players, just give you a couple of code-brains who follow your every order.

That was my idea:
- A blob of 5 Elementals walking/jumping/shooting in lockstep.
- PGI can use the following model: A virtual body of a four-legged Mech, but the joints are transparent. That way the Elementals always stay in formation, because they are really limbs of a single model.
- As the Point takes damage, the limbs get severed one by one. The Point loses firepower, but it also gets even smaller. The pointcommander/torso/you is the last one to die.

Quote

But I agree that infantry should be left as set-path cannon fodder AI. There's a reason why there's a canon acronym for soldiers: PBI, Poor Bloody Infantry. They get stepped on, shot at, swept away...

An Elemental-Point is equal to a Mech in terms of the unit-organization-chart, but not in terms of performance/BV.
It takes 2-3 Points at minimum to take down a Mech in Tabletop. And only if the terrain keeps the Mech from simply running away.

River City? The Swamp? Great maps for Elementals, because they can hide and ambush.
Alpine peaks? Caustic Valley? Horrible maps for Elementals.



Two ideas for spawning them:
Riding along:
- The Elemental-player joins the game at the same time as all the other players but has initially only the 3rd-person-view of the Mech he is riding along on.
- The Elemental-player can spawn himself near that Mech. (I mean, it works with UAVs!)

Dropship:
- The unit-commander picks a location on the battle-grid.
- At a point in time, a dropship will swoop in to that location, spawn the Elementals inside the dropship and then release them to free-fall.
- 12 Clan-Mechs become 10 Clan-Mechs + 5 Elemental Points + a few salvos from a dropship