159 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

This is fantastic, and it is shame no one gets along on these forums. But i have seen worse flame wars and Forum Warrior vengeance get much worse then here. For the most part everyone seems to have a fairly level head, we just all want different things.

As a Johnny.....I can speak for both. But new players are important....there would be no BEST if there is NONE at all. We must learn to cater to the Timmy's, while pleasing the johnny's and Spike alike. But Spike seem to be pleased with whatever works (i.e. Meta) and they will use whatever works regardless of the game changes IMO. So if you are in PGI's shows...what group do you cater to? The one that spends the most money....so our wallets will make the decision for us and a few weeks down the road we will see who PGI "CARES" about more. Not that i can blame them, not in this business for pro bono good feelings and hugs. They are here to give us a game and make money....but who wins the war?

[xMEPHISTOx]

Egomane, on 24 June 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

How about we stop putting other players into archetypes and just call them players. No Timmy, Spike, Scrub or Tryhard. Only players! Because in the end, that is what we are.

You must be new to the interwebs.
Since the interwebs are an anonymous platform for ones opinions people who never speak out or voice their opinion in a public setting do so now that they have the outlet to do so without the required skills to do so effectively.

PS. While I like the jist of what your saying, it is simply not realistic.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 24 June 2014 - 02:07 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

heckuva good read

Heckuva good read, bro. OPs like this, to me are worth reading the 3.5 pages for.

Shame too many Timmies and Spikes both will poopoo it as oversimplified, when the reality is, we are all a whole lot less complex, and a whole lot more shallow than we realize, lol. (Also funny is how many Timmies THINK they are Spikes, lol)

I will say there is one reason, really why I side more with the Timmy crowd (maybe I am one, don't really care, either way, I do know I am not a Spike, nor would I want to be), is the "Spike" mentaliity? End of the day, as you said, the Mech is not important. Neither, really, is the GAME. As you said, zero attachment, in general to the IP, the fluff, the lore, etc.

Thus, if they drive a game into bankruptcy, by driving off the underhive who came simply because they love the IP, they don't care, they will just move on to, and metarape, the next game.

This, TBH, while they Spike is needed to ferret out exploits and balance breaks, to cater excessively to them, unless one has a hugely recognized, uber comp crowd, is generally not the best idea, because they are usually only 1-5% of your actual player base.

What is also funny, or ironic to me, about Spikes in MWO? MWO is largely considered a scrub game, in Competitive FPS circles, so to be a "Spike" here.....means you ARE the King of the Timmies. GG; close!

[Koniks]

1453, there's more to it than simply player types. It's perfectly fine for players to have different reasons for playing and finding different aspects of gameplay entertaining. It's the unwillingness to consider other perspectives or how suggestions made from another perspective have value.

I don't really care if one or both sides are responsible for it. It doesn't matter. It's an obstacle to having discussions since it devolves into snark.

Something that discussions about player types tend to forget is that players aren't necessarily the best designers, whatever type they are. Most players are capable of describing the state of play and finding ways to be entertained (whether that's winning in competition or getting awesome casual drops). But most aren't good at assessing what changes should be made or their implications. It's an entirely different skill.

[Bishop Steiner]

Egomane, on 24 June 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

How about we stop putting other players into archetypes and just call them players. No Timmy, Spike, Scrub or Tryhard. Only players! Because in the end, that is what we are.

That would take more ganja than exists in the whole world, to get gamers to actually "come together" as a community, and agree on ANYTHING.

[Turboferret]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Git Gud, Son.

I can tell you play MtG from the pixels and having done quite a few GPs in my time.

But what about Marvin and Vorthos 1453, what about them!?!?

also the solution is clearly:
>git checkout origin gud
>git pull

Edited by Azrael1911, 24 June 2014 - 02:10 PM.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

Heckuva good read, bro. OPs like this, to me are worth reading the 3.5 pages for.

Shame too many Timmies and Spikes both will poopoo it as oversimplified, when the reality is, we are all a whole lot less complex, and a whole lot more shallow than we realize, lol. (Also funny is how many Timmies THINK they are Spikes, lol)

I will say there is one reason, really why I side more with the Timmy crowd (maybe I am one, don't really care, either way, I do know I am not a Spike, nor would I want to be), is the "Spike" mentaliity? End of the day, as you said, the Mech is not important. Neither, really, is the GAME. As you said, zero attachment, in general to the IP, the fluff, the lore, etc.

Thus, if they drive a game into bankruptcy, by driving off the underhive who came simply because they love the IP, they don't care, they will just move on to, and metarape, the next game.

This, TBH, while they Spike is needed to ferret out exploits and balance breaks, to cater excessively to them, unless one has a hugely recognized, uber comp crowd, is generally not the best idea, because they are usually only 1-5% of your actual player base.

What is also funny, or ironic to me, about Spikes in MWO? MWO is largely considered a scrub game, in Competitive FPS circles, so to be a "Spike" here.....means you ARE the King of the Timmies. GG; close!

Heh...actually, there's plenty of room for Spikes who're also long-standing fans of the lore. As an example, look up Clan Wolf Delta Galaxy.

The Melvin/Vorthos axis is completely separate from the Timmy/Jonny/Spike axis, as GreyGriffin mentioned. A lot of Spikes are Melvins as well, but there's also plenty of Spikes who go the Vorthos direction and win while also being true to the lore and canon of their franchise (as much as is possible, anyways).

Really, player psychographics is actually a very interesting subject. Go dig into that TVTropes link I put up if you're interested, this is good stuff.

[qki]

But scrub is a thing.

The term just doesn't apply to all "inferior" players - the definition I linked describes the situation in detail.

[CeeKay Boques]

Mizeur, on 24 June 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Something that discussions about player types tend to forget is that players aren't necessarily the best designers, whatever type they are. Most players are capable of describing the state of play and finding ways to be entertained (whether that's winning in competition or getting awesome casual drops). But most aren't good at assessing what changes should be made or their implications. It's an entirely different skill.

Or considering other play types beyond their favorite.

[Egomane]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

A noble idea, but one which does not actually help. Labels are only bad if they're false, or if the other guy insists on overly narrow definitions of someone because of a label.

Labels are almost always false. You can't label a person without truly knowing his or her motives.

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Timmy/Jonny/Spike is a way to understand what players want out of a game, where their suggestions for balance or other corrections are coming from, and what the end result they want to get to is. My understanding of player psychographics, basic and 101-level though it may be, has honestly helped me quite a bit in understanding the arguments and debate platforms of players such as the House of Lords guys and other ultra-competitive guys, whose lack of investment in their machines and disregard for the style or personal flair of their victories was utterly, utterly foreign to me until I started doing some research.

I don't need to understand the other person, to accept an opinion on a subject as valid. I can look at that opinion and argue against or for it based on my understanding of the situation. I can provide examples and I can explain my point of view. If everyone would do that, we would have a much more constructive environment and would be easier to come to an agreement.

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

All I want to do is share the fruits of that research and understanding, man. I have no problems with Timmies or Spikes, but I do have a problem with players calling other players scrubs or tryhards and reducing what might've otherwise been a good discussion into a mudslinging contest.

Because we allow such labels to exist, we encourage this behavior.

Technoviking, on 24 June 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

You can moderate the forums, but moderating humanity is a little much.

Trust me... that is a good thing!

I know that I am unable to change the people with mere words on a forum. But I can dream!

[1453 R]

Mizeur, on 24 June 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

1453, there's more to it than simply player types. It's perfectly fine for players to have different reasons for playing and finding different aspects of gameplay entertaining. It's the unwillingness to consider other perspectives or how suggestions made from another perspective have value.

Which is why I wrote five pages of OP trying to explain to people, in a reasonable and non-biased but still entertaining manner, just what those other perspectives are

[CG Chicken Kn]

Timmeh!!!!!!

That was awesome OP! I like awesome!


More importantly, i like winning with style against tryhards! So much more satisfying.
Silly Metaslayer, no you can't solo my Madcat up close and personal. And making jaeger's dance around until they die while never getting their guns on me ever in a light is grand fun.

People can "have fun" any way they want. But telling anyone you are "better" because you won tournament "x" is the mark of a juvenile mind.

Perhaps one of these days the "meta"players will be brave enough to wander over to https://mwolobby.com and have a try at league games that are bid on cz style, where they won't always get to bring their Fotm mech or build.

Then we shall see who is truly "good"

[Bishop Steiner]

Abivard, on 24 June 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

But what about us hardcore types, the ones who like to constantly challenge ourselves, Sure I can sit back and exploit whatever works best, but where is the challenge to that?

Even worse, these spikes are more often simply protecting exploits or imbalances that they personally excel at.
The timmys meanwhile use 'just wanna have fun' as an excuse to grief the HC and the Spike jocks.

Sports jocks are well known for having no relationship between their game skill and their intelligence, why assume E-Sport jocks are any different?

The Hard Core Corp is the only true way, Oorah!

That would be the Johnny, listed at the end, and where people like Koniving and I tend to reside..... we hate the Meta, and don't care enough about winning to use the "defined" best way. I would much rather take my ON1-VA, run it in a way that would make any good Lord or Steel Jag have an aneurysm and go to town.

Because i think the Jack in the Box with nerf gun description is exactly how I look at winning by Meta. I've been parts of units that did it, and usually after a few days, left because the repetition was mind numbing. I don't care that Curccu, Adiuvo or Heimdelight define that as fun, more power to them (though in fairness, they have a little Johnny in them, as they would like to see a less obvious Meta, too), the epitome of "spike" was someone like "POOFstache", someone I took singular delight every time I caught him sans a Metawhore buddy, so I could wreck him with my "non-viable" builds).

I just don't want it forced on me, when I play out of love of Btech and MW, first and last, my own competitiveness, second (I'm too competitive IRL, things that actually MATTER, to give a flip about being competitive for something that doesn't pay me. But step on my salesflorr? I WILL crush you, guaranteed, every single time.)

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Heh...actually, there's plenty of room for Spikes who're also long-standing fans of the lore. As an example, look up Clan Wolf Delta Galaxy.

The Melvin/Vorthos axis is completely separate from the Timmy/Jonny/Spike axis, as GreyGriffin mentioned. A lot of Spikes are Melvins as well, but there's also plenty of Spikes who go the Vorthos direction and win while also being true to the lore and canon of their franchise (as much as is possible, anyways).

Really, player psychographics is actually a very interesting subject. Go dig into that TVTropes link I put up if you're interested, this is good stuff.

I would say the Delta Galaxy, even if they won't admit it, has more Johnny/Spike hybrids in their sibkos, than pure Spikes.

You can't be both emotionally attached, and emotionally unattached, after all.

[1453 R]

qki, on 24 June 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

But scrub is a thing.

The term just doesn't apply to all "inferior" players - the definition I linked describes the situation in detail.

No, scrub is not a thing. Scrub is a term Spikes invented in order to better belittle and ignore Timmies, or anyone else, without bothering to try and understand why someone might not be interested in the grueling road to the very tippy-top of competitive play.

You can be an unskilled Spike, who tries to improve himself despite his lack of talent or ability, and that’s perfectly fine. You can also be a surprisingly awesome Timmy, who regularly pulls huge numbers in his lasers-and-SRMs Awesome because he’s possessed of a surprising amount of raw innate badass, and that’s also fine. But the very description of “Scrub” indicates a serious and uncompromising competitive bias against anyone who’s not In It To Win It.

There are other reasons to play a game. There are other reasons a Timmy could find something frustrating enough to complain about it – as I said, if something is not Awesome, Timmy generally wants nothing to do with it. Do not make the mistake of thinking that Timmies have less right to a great time in MechWarrior Online, or any other game, than even the most skilled and well-trained of Spikes.

[Bilbo]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

No, scrub is not a thing. Scrub is a term Spikes invented in order to better belittle and ignore Timmies, or anyone else, without bothering to try and understand why someone might not be interested in the grueling road to the very tippy-top of competitive play.

You can be an unskilled Spike, who tries to improve himself despite his lack of talent or ability, and that’s perfectly fine. You can also be a surprisingly awesome Timmy, who regularly pulls huge numbers in his lasers-and-SRMs Awesome because he’s possessed of a surprising amount of raw innate badass, and that’s also fine. But the very description of “Scrub” indicates a serious and uncompromising competitive bias against anyone who’s not In It To Win It.

There are other reasons to play a game. There are other reasons a Timmy could find something frustrating enough to complain about it – as I said, if something is not Awesome, Timmy generally wants nothing to do with it. Do not make the mistake of thinking that Timmies have less right to a great time in MechWarrior Online, or any other game, than even the most skilled and well-trained of Spikes.

This is why it is generally better to just make your point and move on. Constructive debates rarely result from arguments between such polar opposite points of view.

[Turboferret]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

No, scrub is not a thing. Scrub is a term Spikes invented in order to better belittle and ignore Timmies, or anyone else, without bothering to try and understand why someone might not be interested in the grueling road to the very tippy-top of competitive play.

You can be an unskilled Spike, who tries to improve himself despite his lack of talent or ability, and that’s perfectly fine. You can also be a surprisingly awesome Timmy, who regularly pulls huge numbers in his lasers-and-SRMs Awesome because he’s possessed of a surprising amount of raw innate badass, and that’s also fine. But the very description of “Scrub” indicates a serious and uncompromising competitive bias against anyone who’s not In It To Win It.

There are other reasons to play a game. There are other reasons a Timmy could find something frustrating enough to complain about it – as I said, if something is not Awesome, Timmy generally wants nothing to do with it. Do not make the mistake of thinking that Timmies have less right to a great time in MechWarrior Online, or any other game, than even the most skilled and well-trained of Spikes.

A Timmy who is secretly amazing is actually a Billy. A Billy is just a Timmy except he's actually way more skilled than most Spikes, but simply don't care about winning.

[Koniks]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Which is why I wrote five pages of OP trying to explain to people, in a reasonable and non-biased but still entertaining manner, just what those other perspectives are

I get that but it's not like people didn't understand that in the other thread. People from each perspective were clear in stating what their perspective was. The OP stated it up front.

So knowing other types exist and what motivates them isn't the issue. There's a lack of empathy involved. Maybe even a lack of willingness to compromise even. And more than a little dose of self-importance.

[Bilbo]

Mizeur, on 24 June 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

I get that but it's not like people didn't understand that in the other thread. People from each perspective were clear in stating what their perspective was. The OP stated it up front.

So knowing other types exist and what motivates them isn't the issue. There's a lack of empathy involved. Maybe even a lack of willingness to compromise even. And more than a little dose of self-importance.

Quoted for truth.

[Lord Ikka]

Good thread OP. As a Johnny, I enjoy the competitive scene but hate the uber-meta Spikes that are only in the game to dominate. I love the universe/background, but still want my unit and myself to bet the best we can without losing that love.

[Bazni]

Thank you, OP, for an excellent read. This is a good paradigm, and one which many would benefit from using. As a Johnny, though, I wish my opinion counted more!