159 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

@ OP:

Those archetypes are represented in MW:O but I suggest that they are less relevant than:

The Crybaby: These guys complain about one thing after another being "OP". On the few occasions when their constant crying has caused them to coincidentally cry about something that really IS OP, they will exaggerate and/or misunderstand WHY said thing is ACTUALLY OP, and in what ways.

The Cynic: *Raises hand*.

The Fallen Angel aka Lucifer: Sandpit. This category is reserved solely for him . GO FORTH, SANDPIT, AND RALLY THE HEAVENLY HOST AGAINST PAUL!

The Silent Majority™: They do actually exist, even on this island. Not much can be (honestly) reliably said about them, aside from the fact that they NEVER RUN AMS OMGWTF?!

The doe-eyed ingenue: This the the category that the cynics (and he-who-shall-not-be-named) came from. We tried to help make the game better and... ... yeah...

The Grognard: Best just to ignore them.

The Troll: Will wear the above roles like masks. Typically seen insisting that machineguns are dedicated anti infantry weapons that cannot possibly harm a battlemech. There is an entire library of reasons why that is not true. Just ignore them, please. They do the same thing with Artillery, Airstrikes, and LRMs being "support weapons", which they pretend to believe means "weak and ineffective".

Oh yeah, there's also the:

CW will fix everything guy: No. No it won't.

Maps will fix everything guy: No. Not they won't.

Dakka makes everything better and is overridingly awesome guy: Yes. He is absolutely right. Shut up.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

I was the king of MWDA in the area of NC I lived in, and one of the Tourney Refs for WizKids for it and HeroClixs and MageKnight. (I was also rather devastating at MK 2.0). But having 2 arthritic hands, and a totally rebuilt right wrist, definitely means I will never be top of the heap at anything remotely twitch.

Heh...three CNC Vixens, each with 2/2/1 pilot and IT gear equipped, backed by a Sylph VTOL battle armor for snatching VC3 and a pile of ATVs calculated out to precisely 600 points to base things with.

Which of the three-headed Hydra's three heads do you kill first? Doesn't matter - whatever does the killing is two PPC Capacitor hits away from being dead itself People HATED that army, man...

[Bishop Steiner]

Sephlock, on 24 June 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

@ OP:

Those archetypes are represented in MW:O but I suggest that they are less relevant than:

The Crybaby: These guys complain about one thing after another being "OP". On the few occasions when their constant crying has caused them to coincidentally cry about something that really IS OP, they will exaggerate and/or misunderstand WHY said thing is ACTUALLY OP, and in what ways.

The Cynic: *Raises hand*.

The Fallen Angel aka Lucifer: Sandpit. This category is reserved solely for him . GO FORTH, SANDPIT, AND RALLY THE HEAVENLY HOST AGAINST PAUL!

The Silent Majority™: They do actually exist, even on this island. Not much can be (honestly) reliably said about them, aside from the fact that they NEVER RUN AMS OMGWTF?!

The doe-eyed ingenue: This the the category that the cynics (and he-who-shall-not-be-named) came from. We tried to help make the game better and... ... yeah...

The Grognard: Best just to ignore them.

The Troll: Will wear the above roles like masks. Typically seen insisting that machineguns are dedicated anti infantry weapons that cannot possibly harm a battlemech. There is an entire library of reasons why that is not true. Just ignore them, please. They do the same thing with Artillery, Airstrikes, and LRMs being "support weapons", which they pretend to believe means "weak and ineffective".

Oh yeah, there's also the:

CW will fix everything guy: No. No it won't.

Maps will fix everything guy: No. Not they won't.

Dakka makes everything better and is overridingly awesome guy: Yes. He is absolutely right. Shut up.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 June 2014 - 03:21 PM.

[Mercules]

Fleeb the Mad, on 24 June 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

Nifty read, though one has to sift through a lot of jpeg verbiage and reposted youtube clips to find the meat in the responses.

I think it explains the balance gripes on the forums rather well. Lots of players call to nerf or buff things because they want a large variety of options to be equally competitive, at both high and low skill levels. That's ultimately what a game designer should aspire to as well. Though...how?

It's a lot harder than it sounds. Ever since the introduction of ELO, the game population has stratified a bit.People who play to win and are good at it play others who play to win and are good at it. The people who try weird builds for challenge, run unoptimized builds for style over efficiency rarely do well enough in those mechs to arrive in the highest ELO bracket. The people who can't shoot straight or are still learning fall into a bracket with others who do the same. In short, I think people's opinion on balance reflects on whether they exist in ELO heaven or hell. Some player types see their ELO (and subsequently what kind of matches they get) as a measure of them as a player and others couldn't care less if they're having fun stomping around in their purple cobra SRM Stalker.

But balance discussions will always be antagonistic because a tweak for the sake of one pool might destabilize another pool. Nobody cares about what happens in a pool they don't play in. They only care about if they are in a good place now and if changes make that better or worse.

I think those who are the most competitive will have it the worst, honestly. I believe the reason the 'meta' has remained as it is all this time because is not because PGI doesn't care or are blindingly incompetent, it's because it's vastly easier to balance the game for the bulk of the population and probably more important to their bottom line. It's actually much more difficult to hone things fine enough so that a variety of options are equally competitive at the highest and lowest levels. I'm afraid those with the data may also realize that things like poptart snipers are only a problem for a very tiny minority of the game, and the meta will only destabilize for a while after changes and just settle back down on some other one-trick build, like the venerable Gausscat from a few iterations ago.

Apparently you don't yet understand that there are no tiers in MWO. You might have a high Elo but you will still play with someone who has half your Elo. In fact the more extreme your Elo is, the more likely it is that you will end up with someone on your team who is the opposite because the matchmaker tries to AVERAGE out Elo for both teams.

Say there are 4 players on each side. One side might get 2 average, one good, and one bad while the other might get 4 average or 2 good and 2 bad. Those all equal out and that is how the matchmaker loads up the matches.

So this myth that really good players play in matches with really good players is getting really old.

[Joseph Mallan]

DarthRevis, on 24 June 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

This is fantastic, and it is shame no one gets along on these forums. But i have seen worse flame wars and Forum Warrior vengeance get much worse then here. For the most part everyone seems to have a fairly level head, we just all want different things.

As a Johnny.....I can speak for both. But new players are important....there would be no BEST if there is NONE at all. We must learn to cater to the Timmy's, while pleasing the johnny's and Spike alike. But Spike seem to be pleased with whatever works (i.e. Meta) and they will use whatever works regardless of the game changes IMO. So if you are in PGI's shows...what group do you cater to? The one that spends the most money....so our wallets will make the decision for us and a few weeks down the road we will see who PGI "CARES" about more. Not that i can blame them, not in this business for pro bono good feelings and hugs. They are here to give us a game and make money....but who wins the war?

I will disagree with this faulty generalization. I have some players I disagree with (StJobe, Khob to name just two) However I am fairly certain that even in our disagreeing we show respect. I know for a fact I probably have liked as many posts by these guys as I have disputed. I understand the direction they are coming from, respect them and their preferred style, But when "my game" is threatened, I will say so. I am NOT arguing to take away their play style, just to remind the DEVs that not everyone wants the same game. When they decide, and implement a change, I will give it the once over it deserves, and critique it from a power gamers perspective again. But PGI has the final say not us players. For me disagreeing is not a lack of respect, How you disagree will be.

[Bazni]

Bilbo, on 24 June 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Point of the OP is that it counts the same.

Except it doesn't. Johnnies specialize in adaptation. That's what they do: take the assigned limitations, work within them, and come up with something that wins. It doesn't have to win all the time, but it has to be able to win a good percentage of the time. Those who adapt have less to complain about because hey, more challenges! Since they have less to complain about they complain less, and since only those who complain harvest the adjustments/nerfs from the almighty PGI (in this case), Johnnies' viewpoints matter less.

Equally valid point of view? Absolutely. Equally heeded point of view? Unfortunately not, because they are able to have fun as long as the game is somewhat close to balanced. If they are able to enjoy the game regardless, then the law of economics almost dictates that they will most often be the viewpoint with the least effect, as their money is already good and PGI doesn't have to worry about them.

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

And also because they’re not really important to the discussion at hand, but damnit I’ma write it anyways.

But! Reading comprehension fail on my part - I initially interpreted this as applying to the entire debate about the game and not just that other thread.

[qki]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Heh...three CNC Vixens, each with 2/2/1 pilot and IT gear equipped, backed by a Sylph VTOL battle armor for snatching VC3 and a pile of ATVs calculated out to precisely 600 points to base things with.

Which of the three-headed Hydra's three heads do you kill first? Doesn't matter - whatever does the killing is two PPC Capacitor hits away from being dead itself People HATED that army, man...

I prefered BR Solitaires with decoy. "so i run 28'' with no extra heat, do i really need this tape measure?" Had a bunch of giggles with a cnc faction card (formations move at the speed of the fastest) and running packs of 3 fenrirs with an odd undine (grapple) and a fast scout, like a shamash.

[Corbenik]

Mystere, on 24 June 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

We can always call "Los Locos"

[1453 R]

heimdelight, on 24 June 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

I actually love the Dragon Slayer so much that I have 3 of them. I bought two, and won one in the PGI First Engagement Tournament (we got to choose any hero mech, I chose a 3rd DS). They all have fancy names related to their uses, and individual colors with trinkets on the inside that match.

I have played 3000+ matches in my DS. I certainly have an emotional attachment to it

But yeah it really wouldn't mean much if I wasn't considered one of the best in it.

All bullscheissing aside for the moment, this part is actually very important.

Something I left out of the OP that I really shouldn’t have (wrote it in a hurry at work, sue me ) is that incredibly few players are an all-or-nothing Pure Spike or Pure Timmy, or pure anything really. Everybody has elements of all three in their make-up; which one someone identifies with is often misleading.

I self-identify as a Jonny/Spike – I enjoy winning a lot more than losing, and I do, in fact, get all blushy and warm-fuzzy from the good regard of my peers, but I will be damned if I’m going to sacrifice my own style and my desire for creativity and control for it. I can slap PPCs and AC/5s on my Durgan Slayer as well as anyone else can, and have in fact played that very fit during the (very) early days of its adoption. I arrived at it on my own, however, and eventually abandoned it as too slow and clunky for my own preferences, which immediately crosses me out for pure Spike.

Hell, you can even have Timmy/Spikes or Spike/Timmies. A Spike/Timmy might drop in his Dragon Slayer for official events and such with his group, but in his off time? He’s still working on finding that competitive angle for the Dire Wolf, because fifty-point-five tons of gun is AWESOME, and by Jove he’s going to find a way to make that awesome work! Whether it be someone else coming up with a fit for the Dire Wolf for him to use (i.e. dual C-ERPPC/dual C-Gauss, because screw you that’s why), or whether he’s also got enough Jonny in him to try and dig up that fit himself, he has a definite taste for awesome he’d like to fit in around Winning whenever he can find room.

Probably one of the reasons Egomane got on my case It’s very, very rarely as clean-cut as the articles make it sound.

[Koniks]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

snip

I wasn't assigning blame to one type or the other for the lack of amicable discussion. I was also deliberately not naming players.

Labeling the behavior is sufficient, especially since it's not unique to a particular player type.

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

This was posted before...

Yes, yes it was.

[Slepnir]

Well I am definitely a Johnny, I want to win, my mechs are effective but I am all about the lore as well. besides i never play meta but I willl gladly beat you down with several of my nearly TT stock builds.

[Joseph Mallan]

heimdelight, on 24 June 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

I actually love the Dragon Slayer so much that I have 3 of them. I bought two, and won one in the PGI First Engagement Tournament (we got to choose any hero mech, I chose a 3rd DS). They all have fancy names related to their uses, and individual colors with trinkets on the inside that match.

I have played 3000+ matches in my DS. I certainly have an emotional attachment to it

But yeah it really wouldn't mean much if I wasn't considered one of the best in it.

LOL well there is the stretch. In three years I only have 300ish matches in my D-DC and 150 in my D and less than 4000 matches total.

[Koniks]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Probably one of the reasons Egomane got on my case It’s very, very rarely as clean-cut as the articles make it sound.

It's basically Meyers-Briggs for gaming. And while there's some truth behind the types, there's a lot more gray area. Even with MBPT, after the test they ask the taker to read the different types and see which one resonates with them the most.

Edited by Mizeur, 24 June 2014 - 03:55 PM.

[Mavairo]

I'm a Johnny at heart, Now. I used to be a Spike.
It's ALL about style and panache. Or damn well should be.
I was a Spike, in several games, and notched more wins under my belt (races won, and top 2% lap times in Forza, pvp Stomps Won in Star Trek Online to such an extent I had a 98.4% match victory rate, just two name the 2 I put the most effort into) than I care to think about. I discovered one thing, once I got to the top of the heap or near it in STO in particular.

It Gets Boring up there, particularly in games with very small communities (something this and STO have in common), when you know that in a 5v5, that you can que up, and win 90 percent of your games, and win more than that queing with anyone with a modicum of talent. I probably have more 15 and 0 Stomps saved in my sto screen shot folder, than alot of Spikes in this game have saved Match Results in their mwo folders. Between this, and the lack of support Cryptic continued to demonstrate towards pvp I left.

I went to Forza4. Where I discovered in R3, in a Nascar Car of all things I could hit the top 2 percent in my class on almost any track. Let alone when I broke out the Meta Cars. Top 100s weren't uncommon in R3 and R2 for me. A class I'd often hit the 200s (out of 200,000 + Top Lap times) in the non meta cars. I discovered there too, that I was starting to get bored once I started using the meta cars. I had more fun slinging around Camaros, Firebirds, etc than I ever did grinding out laps in my Lotus Exige (the top meta car in A and S) even if they were more than a second off the pace. It became more fun to win with style, than it did with a car that well, let's face it in that game could pretty much faceroll it's way into victory lane with very low effort from the driver. Forza4, is where I started becoming more Johnny than Spike.

Once in a great while the Spike comes out in me, and I'll go fetch my dragonslayer and arm it meta style. Then I'll remember why I got so revolted with this game's current meta and put it right back away, and pretend very hard that I never did it, and get right back into my Dragons, Thunderbolts, Catapults, Centurions, Jenners, Atlases (RS and DDC), and laser boating battlemaster.

I'd love to be a Spike again, There were a Few ways to truly be a Spike in STO. (the problem there was the player base nor devs supported longevity in play... it got to a point where I recognized most anyone that was a Regular pvper in STO and I could pretty much tell you what their buff and debuff cycles were going to be at the START of the match), but I know at the end of the day... as long as the Meta in this game remains unchanged, I'm not going to have any fun. It'll be driving the Lotus Exige all over again.

It's why I also don't fully practice the Advent Battleball in Sins of a solar empire. It's more stylish to win with frigates, and fighters, with a Battleship bringing guns to bear, and play a culture expansion war, than to play around with a healer cap ship, some heal cruisers, and illuminator frigates purely otherwise. (much to one of my friend's aggravation.) If I can be effective enough to win, and win regularly, with a more pleasing stylish flair then why the hell not?

Edited by Mavairo, 24 June 2014 - 04:04 PM.

[Silverlance]

Well done. Very well done.

Kudos, brownie points and infinite internets to you.

But as awesome as this post was. There's still the other player type that you forgot to mention. The Jack. Jacks, no matter what you say, how eloquently you put it or masterfully address it. Will always troll you, will always call you a scrub, noob, try-hard and every other name under the sun to push you down because to Jack, you'll never be as good as him because he exists in his own level where he is the master and everyone else, including his own mother, is beneath him. Everything is whine, cry more, L2P, L2Read, etcetc. And those Jacks are the people that ruin this game for the Jonnies, the Spikes and the Timmies no matter how much balance the other groups want.

Edited by Silverlance, 24 June 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Silverlance, on 24 June 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Well done. Very well done.

Kudos, brownie points and infinite internets to you.

But as awesome as this post was. There's still the other player type that you forgot to mention. The Jack. Jacks, no matter what you say, how eloquently you put it or masterfully address it. Will always troll you, will always call you a scrub, noob, try-hard and every other name under the sun to push you down because to Jack, you'll never be as good as him because he exists in his own level where he is the master and everyone else, including his own mother, is beneath him. Everything is whine, cry more, L2P, L2Read, etcetc. And those Jacks are the people that ruin this game for the Jonnies, the Spikes and the Timmies no matter how much balance the other groups want.

Jack would never do that!

[1453 R]

Silverlance, on 24 June 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Well done. Very well done.

Kudos, brownie points and infinite internets to you.

But as awesome as this post was. There's still the other player type that you forgot to mention. The Jack. Jacks, no matter what you say, how eloquently you put it or masterfully address it. Will always troll you, will always call you a scrub, noob, try-hard and every other name under the sun to push you down because to Jack, you'll never be as good as him because he exists in his own level where he is the master and everyone else, including his own mother, is beneath him. Everything is whine, cry more, L2P, L2Read, etcetc. And those Jacks are the people that ruin this game for the Jonnies, the Spikes and the Timmies no matter how much balance the other groups want.

'Jack' is not a player archetype. This is what is known as a jackass, and it doesn't bear dignifying with any name beyond that. There's also nothing you can do about them save ignore them wherever possible and report them where not.

[Mercules]

qki, on 24 June 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

I prefered BR Solitaires with decoy. "so i run 28'' with no extra heat, do i really need this tape measure?" Had a bunch of giggles with a cnc faction card (formations move at the speed of the fastest) and running packs of 3 fenrirs with an odd undine (grapple) and a fast scout, like a shamash.

I once took 1st in a 12 man 400 point tournament using nothing but 5 80 point Forestry Mechs. I was told they were worthless.

[1453 R]

Mercules, on 24 June 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

I once took 1st in a 12 man 400 point tournament using nothing but 5 80 point Forestry Mechs. I was told they were worthless.

MW:AoD equivalent of Weenie Rush. My brother did the same with HL Mjollnirs, and once deployed more than seventy individual infantry pieces in a single army. He literally could not fit all his pieces in the DZ. After that day, and watching Travis chase a Shiro around and around the board for forty-five minutes before capturing it, the shop owner made a new house rule: if your army cannot fit in the DZ - before Infiltrate, and yes, that came up - it’s disqualified

Hm hm…Weenie Rush works well against single large threats that can only take your weenies down so fast, but against something like the BR Solitaires army, or my CNC Vixens, you’d be so much meat. Individually, each of my Vixens/qki’s Solitaires easily overwhelms a ForestryMech, and you don’t have enough ForestryMechs to swamp all of my Vixens before they can shoot you down.

.
..
…
GOD I miss that game…

Edited by 1453 R, 24 June 2014 - 04:11 PM.