159 replies to this topic

[qki]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

No, scrub is not a thing. Scrub is a term Spikes invented in order to better belittle and ignore Timmies, or anyone else, without bothering to try and understand why someone might not be interested in the grueling road to the very tippy-top of competitive play.

You can be an unskilled Spike, who tries to improve himself despite his lack of talent or ability, and that’s perfectly fine. You can also be a surprisingly awesome Timmy, who regularly pulls huge numbers in his lasers-and-SRMs Awesome because he’s possessed of a surprising amount of raw innate badass, and that’s also fine. But the very description of “Scrub” indicates a serious and uncompromising competitive bias against anyone who’s not In It To Win It.

There are other reasons to play a game. There are other reasons a Timmy could find something frustrating enough to complain about it – as I said, if something is not Awesome, Timmy generally wants nothing to do with it. Do not make the mistake of thinking that Timmies have less right to a great time in MechWarrior Online, or any other game, than even the most skilled and well-trained of Spikes.

You are ommiting people who claim to be playing to win, but refuse to improve, and instead simply disregard certain tactics and people using them. I wrote a rather lengthy thread on that (aptly titled "learn to play n00bs").

Oh, and here's what some genuine spike has to say on the subject:
http://www.sirlin.ne...win-part-1.html

Kind of biased, so take it with a grain of salt.

Edited by qki, 24 June 2014 - 02:38 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mizeur, on 24 June 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

I get that but it's not like people didn't understand that in the other thread. People from each perspective were clear in stating what their perspective was. The OP stated it up front.

So knowing other types exist and what motivates them isn't the issue. There's a lack of empathy involved. Maybe even a lack of willingness to compromise even. And more than a little dose of self-importance.

Well, to point out, what should be obvious.

In life, if you are a TRUE Spike? You have little empathy, because winning is all. Period. It's the dog eat dog, the little guy exists to be a step stool (after all, the little guy wasn't supposed to be stepped on, he wouldn't be little to begin with, right?) for the big guy. That's mentality that goes with being a true Spike. And that is of course the broad brush that the "Spike Crowd" is seen through, as a group is almost always, correctly or not, defined by it's more extreme members and characteristics.

Which also makes it hard for the Timmy to sympathize with a Spike. Much as the average joe, might love baseball,but have no compassion for Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez or Roger Clemens. It's why most people feel no compassion for Martha Stewart. Because they certainly felt none for whomever they bulldozed to get where they are.

Of course, thankfully, there are very few true, real, IRL Spikes about. Because essentially, a true Spike, is a sociopath. But the number of Spikes who seem to reinforce that image every time they do open their mouth, makes it even harder for the more moderates Spikes to communicate, as they first have to try to overcome the prejudices propagated by the "True" Spikes.

As has been seen every time Jager, Heimdelight, Adiuvo, Curccu or the like try to have an open conversation. First the butthurt, angry Timmies come out to decry them, then the entitled, arrogant Spikes come out to explain to their wayward Spike brethren how this shows how misguided the Spike was to try to communicate to the plebeian masses in the first place. The Gods do NOT come down from Olympus to explain things to mere mortals. Instead, mortals should rejoice in being even allowed to exist, and happy for whatever scrap their "betters" leave them.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 June 2014 - 02:39 PM.

[Bilbo]

Bazni, on 24 June 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Thank you, OP, for an excellent read. This is a good paradigm, and one which many would benefit from using. As a Johnny, though, I wish my opinion counted more!

Point of the OP is that it counts the same.

[heimdelight]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Players like Heim, Adiuvo, and literally everyone else in the RHoD tournament are primarily Spikes. They’re in the game to win it – not because they hate fun, hate originality, and hate you, but because to a Spike, the most satisfying portion of the game – the best and most entertaining fun – is to demonstrate mastery. They want to be the very best, like no one ever was.

A Spike does not have any real emotional attachment to or personal investment in his ‘Mechs, the way a Timmy or Jonny does. They’re tools to Spike, a means by which the real important part of the game – his own personal skill, knowledge, and ability, and the combined talent of the team he surrounds himself with – can be put to the test. Spikes buy the Dragon Slayer because it’s an optimal chassis – they didn’t give it a cool name when they bought it, and they didn’t bother with zippy colors to put on it either. The ‘Mech is unimportant save as a means by which the player’s mastery of the game can be demonstrated – it’s why you hear ultracomp-bracket players talk about specific pilots in their games rather than specific ‘Mech designs or weapon systems. In their section of the game, what you play is not even remotely important. It’s who you play, both with and against, how good they are, and what that says about your own talents and abilities.

I actually love the Dragon Slayer so much that I have 3 of them. I bought two, and won one in the PGI First Engagement Tournament (we got to choose any hero mech, I chose a 3rd DS). They all have fancy names related to their uses, and individual colors with trinkets on the inside that match.

I have played 3000+ matches in my DS. I certainly have an emotional attachment to it

But yeah it really wouldn't mean much if I wasn't considered one of the best in it.

Edited by heimdelight, 24 June 2014 - 02:41 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

heimdelight, on 24 June 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

I actually love the Dragon Slayer so much that I have 3 of them. I bought two, and won one in the PGI First Engagement Tournament (we got to choose any hero mech, I chose a 3rd DS). They all have fancy names related to their uses, and individual colors with trinkets on the inside that match.

I have played 3000+ matches in my DS. I certainly have an emotional attachment to it

False Spike! You have been outed, and the Council of Spikes is watching you!

Ware, heretic, lest ye be excommunicated!

[Adiuvo]

heimdelight, on 24 June 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

I actually love the Dragon Slayer so much that I have 3 of them. I bought two, and won one in the PGI First Engagement Tournament (we got to choose any hero mech, I chose a 3rd DS). They all have fancy names related to their uses, and individual colors with trinkets on the inside that match.

I have played 3000+ matches in my DS. I certainly have an emotional attachment to it

But yeah it really wouldn't mean much if I wasn't considered one of the best in it.

I named my Ember Henry and my Jenner Jennifer

In my mind they're a married couple, and together their kid will be the best at brawling AND poking!!

[Mercules]

I am a hardcore Johnny. I played Commandos in Closed Beta and made them work. Sure they were not 'optimal' compared to the only other light mech Jenners, but I could make them work and do well with them even taking out Jenners 1 on 1. I continue to play Lights and Mediums and even when I play something like a Shadowhawk it doesn't tend to be the build that fits the meta best.

In Rift I made a Tanking Rogue. Sure they gave us a soul that could possibly make an okay tank but I have never run into anyone who has bothered to build the Tanking Rogue. I was able to handle the same content that my tanking Warrior could and with a few specific mobs I could do better, with others I was worse.

[Deathlike]

Adiuvo, on 24 June 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

I named my Ember Henry and my Jenner Jennifer

In my mind they're a married couple, and together their kid will be the best at brawling AND poking!!

Is there a house pet in the works?

[Turboferret]

Adiuvo, on 24 June 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

I named my Ember Henry and my Jenner Jennifer

In my mind they're a married couple, and together their kid will be the best at brawling AND poking!!

One day they will release a XL345 clan 35 tonner that has 32 ballistics mounts and nothing else. Mark my words.

[Capriel]

@ OP.

Excellent post. Awesome,even.

[TOPGUN Stinger]

Funny thing.
When some win something,
they post more
thinking their victories
make their
words weigh more heavily
on the minds of
their inferior peers.

[GRiPSViGiL]

I am a Spike only because I choose to fight fire with fire. As much as I want to play every different kind of loadout and mech in the game it just isn't reasonable to do successfully when people only use the most successful loadouts and mechs. I am forced into taking only the optimal loadouts and mechs that can carry those loadouts. You have to play within those parameters to stand a chance to have a fair/fun match. Yes, to me, fun is having a fair chance to win. Which is often times thrown out the window because the matchmaker can't balance ELO at all. The thing that needs to be understood though is that Spikes are not just good at the meta...they would be good with anything.

Anyway, there are probably an unlimited amount of player archtypes that can be classified and explained. The main point people should take from this is realizing that everyone has their own definition of fun and play the game in their own fashion to find it.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Nifty read, though one has to sift through a lot of jpeg verbiage and reposted youtube clips to find the meat in the responses.

I think it explains the balance gripes on the forums rather well. Lots of players call to nerf or buff things because they want a large variety of options to be equally competitive, at both high and low skill levels. That's ultimately what a game designer should aspire to as well. Though...how?

It's a lot harder than it sounds. Ever since the introduction of ELO, the game population has stratified a bit.People who play to win and are good at it play others who play to win and are good at it. The people who try weird builds for challenge, run unoptimized builds for style over efficiency rarely do well enough in those mechs to arrive in the highest ELO bracket. The people who can't shoot straight or are still learning fall into a bracket with others who do the same. In short, I think people's opinion on balance reflects on whether they exist in ELO heaven or hell. Some player types see their ELO (and subsequently what kind of matches they get) as a measure of them as a player and others couldn't care less if they're having fun stomping around in their purple cobra SRM Stalker.

But balance discussions will always be antagonistic because a tweak for the sake of one pool might destabilize another pool. Nobody cares about what happens in a pool they don't play in. They only care about if they are in a good place now and if changes make that better or worse.

I think those who are the most competitive will have it the worst, honestly. I believe the reason the 'meta' has remained as it is all this time because is not because PGI doesn't care or are blindingly incompetent, it's because it's vastly easier to balance the game for the bulk of the population and probably more important to their bottom line. It's actually much more difficult to hone things fine enough so that a variety of options are equally competitive at the highest and lowest levels. I'm afraid those with the data may also realize that things like poptart snipers are only a problem for a very tiny minority of the game, and the meta will only destabilize for a while after changes and just settle back down on some other one-trick build, like the venerable Gausscat from a few iterations ago.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Snip

As a note, the T/J/S axis only really applies, in my mind anyways, to the gaming sphere. A hardcore, Get On My Level Son Spike can still be a warm and kind-hearted family man who brings his son out to play baseball every weekend and enjoys taking his wife out to fine restaurants and wooing her all over again. He can even be a laughing hooligan between matches, chumming it up with friend and foe alike - but when you sit down across the card table (or spawn across the map) from him, then boah, you had best be bringin' your A-game if you want to get somewhere!

Heh...that was actually me, back when I lived close enough to a card shop to play regularly. I was as good in that sphere as the Konivings of MWO are in this one - not quite top-tier ultracomp, but good enough to keep the ultracomp guys well on their toes, and more than good enough to take home the prize any time the ultracomps aren't at the top of their game. I was also easily one of the best players of the MechWarrior Clix game back in said card shop. Take away my decidedly sub-par hand-eye coordination and mouse skills, and my brain is an even match for any ultracomp on this board. Just...not my hands .

There's a reason I can see where the Spikes are coming from, but there's also a reason I can't get behind most of their arguments, and that was because I was also an unofficial MW:AoD judge, and a guy who was very heavily invested in teaching new players the game and helping everyone else improve their play. I didn't want stomps, I wanted fights, and helping players not suck was the best way I could find to not only get good fights, but to also make the game more fun and enjoyable for my fellow players.

Spikes have an unfair rap as cold, taciturn Stop Having Fun Guys, and in fact I've met several who were just exactly that. But don't fall into the trap of applying the label outside the space where it works (See, Egomane? I can pay attention! ), and don't make the mistake of thinking all Spikes are noob-hating bassholes. Just most of them

...[/jk]

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 24 June 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

I named my Ember Henry and my Jenner Jennifer

In my mind they're a married couple, and together their kid will be the best at brawling AND poking!!

I thought you were a little weird before.

Thanks for confirming!

heimdelight, on 24 June 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

I actually love the Dragon Slayer so much that I have 3 of them. I bought two, and won one in the PGI First Engagement Tournament (we got to choose any hero mech, I chose a 3rd DS). They all have fancy names related to their uses, and individual colors with trinkets on the inside that match.

I have played 3000+ matches in my DS. I certainly have an emotional attachment to it

But yeah it really wouldn't mean much if I wasn't considered one of the best in it.

So you kind of touched on it I think at the end, but could you be fond of a chassis like that, if it WASN'T ultra competitive? Be a scrub like me and love my Orion, in spite of it never having a chance to be the Prom Queen?

[Sephlock]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 June 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

I thought you were a little weird before.

Thanks for confirming!

Pot, meet kettle .

[Lyoto Machida]

Great read...now I gotta go read that other thread to see what you're talking about. Though, I kinda have an idea already...

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 24 June 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

snippity snip

Yup. I was still that annoying Johnny at MtG. I had some very very odd decks, that if Spike's cards did not fall EXACTLY right, would suddenly come out and destroy them. BUT, i never had the time or devotion to jump to Spike level, as, well, it's a game, and something I do to relax. I have, traditionally worked in very high stress(often life and death) environments, so bringing that level of intensity to my "down time" is rather counter productive.

I was the king of MWDA in the area of NC I lived in, and one of the Tourney Refs for WizKids for it and HeroClixs and MageKnight. (I was also rather devastating at MK 2.0). But having 2 arthritic hands, and a totally rebuilt right wrist, definitely means I will never be top of the heap at anything remotely twitch.

In fact, some nights I am reduced to playing a LRMboat, because I basically cannot control my fingers good enough for anything else (and I'm only 38. Football, firefights and fist fights, all have taken their toll). Imagine every time you try to type, it feels like someone is pouring acid under the skin on the back of your hands. That is me. It's why I wish Joysticks were better optimized for this type of game, like they were in MW3&4, as they are actually far less painful to use for me.

So, TBH, considering, I am actually pretty happy to be as competitive a player as I am. But I need to win based more on tactics and strategy than twitch skills.

Sephlock, on 24 June 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Pot, meet kettle .

meets frying pan?

[Mystere]

Mizeur, on 24 June 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Something that discussions about player types tend to forget is that players aren't necessarily the best designers, whatever type they are. Most players are capable of describing the state of play and finding ways to be entertained (whether that's winning in competition or getting awesome casual drops). But most aren't good at assessing what changes should be made or their implications. It's an entirely different skill.

That is what we have PGI for.

[Clit Beastwood]

What about drunk people that like explosions?