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Proof Clan Tech And Hero Mechs Are Pay To Win


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#101 Fut

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:11 AM

If Clan mechs were really P2W, every single match played right now should only have Clan mechs left standing at the end.
How often is this happening?

#102 anonymous161

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:17 AM

This aint proof, I have seen plenty of IS mechs slaughter clan mechs.

It's not p2w if it becomes free eventually, in a few months you will have the option to buy them with cbills which are free...another fail topic about clans...QUICK SOMEONE CALL THE WAAAAAAHHHHHMMMBULANCE!

It's more about team work and skill kid.

#103 Zerberus

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:31 AM

The only thing the OP actually proved is that the OP doesn`t understand the definitions of "proof", "facts", "opinion" and "Pay to Win" properly.

As usual, the thread is a waste of bandwidth becasue it`s just another whine disguised as a coherent contribution.

Resetting "Clans are P2W and hopelessly OP and here`s why" new thread timer to 15 minutes.

The fact that Darth Bane and I agree on this should serve as proof that you being correct in your assumption is absolutely impossible.

Edited by Zerberus, 25 June 2014 - 08:35 AM.


#104 DONTOR

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:36 AM

View PostcSand, on 24 June 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Hey, here's a newsflash

Pay some cash if you want the new shinies right away

IF you don't wanna pay, that's fine, but make sure you STFU and wait while the rest of who bankroll your f**king experience get rewarded (rightly so) for it

a 1000 times YES!

#105 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:38 AM

View PostRussianWolf, on 25 June 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

That settles it guys. He has proven without a shadow of a doubt that because I derive an advantage when I drive Pretty Baby, it is in fact P2W despite everyone else saying it is a terrible mech.


Back to reality.

The fact that one person finds something advantageous does not make something P2W. If the majority saw an advantage, then MAYBE. But implying that if Someone, ANYONE finds an advantage it becomes P2W is silly.

I'm running a mix of Stock clan mechs and stock IS mechs right now. Frankly, I'm doing better in the IS than the Clans.

We heard the same P2W claims about the Battlemaster when it came out and those who paid, like myself, had it 4 months earlier than the cbill release. 7 PPCs?!??!?!?!?! OP/P2W. That build lasted about 1 day. Looking back, it wasn't pay to win. It was pay to get to figure out what wouldn't work first. People coming in later got the benefit of knowing what was worth getting and what wasn't.

And yes, I love my Baby and do very well when I take her out. She is one of my favorite rides for a reason.

I find my Griffin highly advantageous, what with that unparalleled torso twist and jump mobility.

Does that mean my Griffin is P2W? ;)

#106 Rushmoar

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:09 AM

Yeah, the only thing this proved is the OP is clueless to what P2W means. Didn't know the Pretty Baby and Oxide were op. So how is clan tech P2W when everyone will have access to them?
Anytime someone says "can prove", " proof", and "your wrong" is automatically a failed post.
Maybe we are being trolled.

Edited by Rushmoar, 25 June 2014 - 09:13 AM.


#107 1453 R

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:12 AM

You know what the actual argument being proposed by the CLANS OP PRANA PLZ NERF crowd is, right Bishop?

See, that’s been my primary sticking point with all these threads, as so few of them are actually concerned with balance whilst crying that the Clans are so badly unbalanced. The Laser Math guys are about the only ones I know of trying to argue from a “this isn’t right” standpoint, with facts and reasoning, and also funnily enough are the only guys getting any real traction with their arguments. It’s been bothering me that I couldn’t precisely put words to what these folks all wanted, except of course for the usual forum butthurt over anything and everything that gets introduced/fixed/changed/removed from MWO at any time ever.

Then I made the realization, just this morning while looking at Atheus’ thread here – that’s it. That really is all there is to it. This thread, all the other threads, every single person who’s cried PEE TWO DOUBLEYOU at the top of his lungs…they don’t have an objective, they don’t have anything they’re really trying to achieve. The only thing they want is to proclaim that anyone who took advantage of the Invasion preorder, when they could not/would not, is a bad person and should feel bad. They want us all to acknowledge that we shouldn’a done it, and probably, preferably, to refuse to play our Clan ‘Mechs until such time as the things are released for free to the rest of the general player base as a token of our admission that we’re bad people and we feel bad.

…good luck with that one, guys. I’ll be seeing you on the field – in my Stormcrows, Timber Wolves and Warhawks, and maybe a Cute Fox, Adder, Nova or Summoner from time to time. You’re safe from my Dire Whales, though – I may well end up selling my non-(I) Dire Wolves, those things are just ugh.

#108 Ngamok

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:13 AM

View PostCord78, on 25 June 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:


Who got radar deprivation for free?? Yes the $240 Masakari bundle came with 4 free bonus modules but none of them were Radar Deprivation.



I don't know. The person who I quoted claimed the people who paid for the Masakari package got it for free. I only got the $90 Summoner Package so I do not know but I bought mine for 15K GXP + 6 million C-Bills.

#109 RussianWolf

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:13 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 June 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

I find my Griffin highly advantageous, what with that unparalleled torso twist and jump mobility.

Does that mean my Griffin is P2W? ;)

according to them, yes, it was P2W for that 6 months that they couldn't get it for cbills.

You should go take a shower and scrub yourself clean you unpure person you.

#110 Atheus

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:14 AM

View PostKeira_NZ, on 25 June 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

two things apparent from this Thread

The OP likes the sound of his or her sermons.

The OP likes to be a pariah.

View PostZervziel, on 25 June 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

You don't know the sheer pain and agony he must go through from being always right! Lording it over those filthy Space-rich really takes it out of ya.

View PostKeira_NZ, on 25 June 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

This is what the OP hears as he preaches to us the evils of PGI and those that finance their wicked ways

View PostLevon K, on 25 June 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

Wow, that's one stubborn OP.

Set in his ways, poor listening skills, no business sense.

No understanding of how difficult it is to develop, balance, and manage a gigantic online game such as MWO.

Just sheer "PGI is evil, they make it P2W to extract funds from its players". Complete nonsense.

To be honest with you, those "top tier super elite" players deserve themselves. They deserve to run all meta mechs all the time against each other. They deserve to be required to pay for Dragon Slayers and Embers.

Us normal players who are enjoying the game for what it is, will continue to pilot a variety of machines. I usually choose hero mechs only if I'm looking to gain C-Bills faster. Otherwise there is enjoyment in piloting everything. And I usually find a non-hero chassis to be more powerful than a hero.

I'll start with the ad hominem section. You're having fun, but you're not addressing the argument, in any way. If your thought is that my personality flaws indicate the argument must not be sound, this is nothing but a logical fallacy.

View PostNgamok, on 25 June 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

Eh? I own it as many other people own it who didn't get it for free.

15k GXP really? Like I said, I bought it and still have 97k GXP left over. I know people who have 400k GXP and I am sure there are people with even more. Complaining about 15k GXP is wrong because it's attainable.

If you can get it for free, then it isn't P2W. Simple enough. This is irrelevant

View PostGyrok, on 25 June 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Nope, they were all nerfed in turning/arm movement/twist, etc. equally.

This thread is P2W because you had to buy a DS to play "meta".

Seriously though, shut up. If you want to see P2W look at WoT and golden ammo. There is nothing like that in this game. P2W is only in your mind.

You want to know what is P2W in any game? Skill, player skill is F******* OP! It is ******** OP!!!! If you want to be OP, then I suggest you L2P...it will do you far more good than sitting in this forum posting ramblings about BS that nobody cares about, and makes no difference. Things as they are now are in a good place...ESPECIALLY the TW. Considering the DS can mount 42T of weapons/JJs/DHS with XL350 in it, meanwhile the TW can mount just 26.5, and the CTF can mount ~40-41T of guns with the typical meta setup...

So do not talk to me about P2W...look at my thread...

I would say look at my thread, since you're here commenting in it. You obviously haven't comprehended the contents. But aside from that, you're making the argument that skill, which is a free way to improve your performance, is pay to win. You're really not afraid to spout total nonsense to support your case are you?

View PostRussianWolf, on 25 June 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

How about if I say it?

Still makes you look like a jerk.

#111 Ngamok

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:21 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 June 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

I find my Griffin highly advantageous, what with that unparalleled torso twist and jump mobility.

Does that mean my Griffin is P2W? :D


Yes, I bought it as part of my Sabre Package ;)

Edit: And then I hit F4 and then immediately claimed I was a demon for doing loop de loop 360s as I saw my torso twist.

Edited by Ngamok, 25 June 2014 - 09:25 AM.


#112 Atheus

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:22 AM

View PostEyeOne, on 25 June 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

You just summed up your argument by describing the Clans as not at all P2W. Oh, it's a play style thing? I thought it was always better.

Then you didn't comprehend the argument. Purchasing exclusive content to improve your own performance means you have attempted to pay for an advantage. If your performance improves as a result of your exclusive content purchase, then you have succeeded at paying for an advantage. Two separate principles, and it's really a tautology. You're basically arguing against the reliability of logic itself.

View PostFut, on 25 June 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

If Clan mechs were really P2W, every single match played right now should only have Clan mechs left standing at the end.
How often is this happening?

Work on your comprehension.

View PostDarth Bane001, on 25 June 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

This aint proof, I have seen plenty of IS mechs slaughter clan mechs.

This sentence here is evidence that you aren't even close to comprehending the premise.

View PostZerberus, on 25 June 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

The only thing the OP actually proved is that the OP doesn`t understand the definitions of "proof", "facts", "opinion" and "Pay to Win" properly.

As usual, the thread is a waste of bandwidth becasue it`s just another whine disguised as a coherent contribution.

Resetting "Clans are P2W and hopelessly OP and here`s why" new thread timer to 15 minutes.

The fact that Darth Bane and I agree on this should serve as proof that you being correct in your assumption is absolutely impossible.

This is all opinion. If you don't like the argument, attack with logic, not opinion.

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 June 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

I find my Griffin highly advantageous, what with that unparalleled torso twist and jump mobility.

Does that mean my Griffin is P2W? ;)

Can people buy a Griffin for C-Bills?

I'll restate it again, just for you.

Purchasing exclusive content to improve your own performance means you have attempted to pay for an advantage. If your performance improves as a result of your exclusive content purchase, then you have succeeded at paying for an advantage. Two separate principles, and it's really a tautology. You're basically arguing against the reliability of logic itself.

So back to your Griffin - if you purchased it at a time when it was only available for cash, and used it with the impression that it would provide you an advantage, then you paid for an advantage. If you actually did perform better with the Griffin than you would with free mechs, then you received the advantage you paid for. Once that mech became available for C-Bills, then whatever advantage you may have gained was available for free to other players, and you no longer held a cash-only advantage over anyone else.

View Post1453 R, on 25 June 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

…they don’t have an objective, they don’t have anything they’re really trying to achieve.

Reaching a consensus on what does and does not constitute pay to win business practices in a F2P environment is a fairly key point. If players have some sort of mental block that prevents them from recognizing something, it becomes impossible to have a discussion about what to do to address the issue.

#113 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:27 AM

View PostAtheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Then you didn't comprehend the argument. Purchasing exclusive content to improve your own performance means you have attempted to pay for an advantage. If your performance improves as a result of your exclusive content purchase, then you have succeeded at paying for an advantage. Two separate principles, and it's really a tautology. You're basically arguing against the reliability of logic itself.

Work on your comprehension.

This sentence here is evidence that you aren't even close to comprehending the premise.

This is all opinion. If you don't like the argument, attack with logic, not opinion.

Can people buy a Griffin for C-Bills?

I'll restate it again, just for you.


For Several months, they in fact, could not purchase Griffins for Cbills. Or Locusts, Shadowhawks, TBolts, Battlemaster or Wolverines.

Same model being used for the Clans. Next week, the KitFox is available for MC. 2 Weeks after that, the KitFox becomes available for CBills, and the Nova, available for MC. Etc.

#114 cSand

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:32 AM

So now you're going to get Clan trial mechs to play around in


annnnnnd thread over, P2W argument crushed, have a wonderful day

Edited by cSand, 25 June 2014 - 09:32 AM.


#115 Atheus

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:32 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 June 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

For Several months, they in fact, could not purchase Griffins for Cbills. Or Locusts, Shadowhawks, TBolts, Battlemaster or Wolverines.

Same model being used for the Clans. Next week, the KitFox is available for MC. 2 Weeks after that, the KitFox becomes available for CBills, and the Nova, available for MC. Etc.

http://mwomercs.com/...lease-schedule/
Unless they changed the schedule without updating the announcement, you've got a pretty healthy misconception here.

View PostcSand, on 25 June 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

So now you're going to get Clan trial mechs to play around in

annnnnnd thread over, P2W argument crushed, have a wonderful day

Explain how Clan trial mechs level the playing field.

Edited by Atheus, 25 June 2014 - 09:34 AM.


#116 N a p e s

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:33 AM

So the conclusion is that the clans are temporary P2W...?

#117 1453 R

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:33 AM

View PostAtheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Reaching a consensus on what does and does not constitute pay to win business practices in a F2P environment is a fairly key point. If players have some sort of mental block that prevents them from recognizing something, it becomes impossible to have a discussion about what to do to address the issue.


The problem comes when your attempt to reach that consensus has no objective beyond giving you firmer ground with which to point your pointin’ finger at anyone with an Ironclad badge (should I throw up my Overlord badge again, you think? Maybe make my arguments look more valid since I’m not then clearly and inarguably in Clan ‘Mechs myself?), and do the “You’re a bad person and you should feel bad!” thing.

Agreeing that something is or is not ‘P2W’, with no objective after that and no reasoning behind seeking the consensus in the first place, is nothing more than attempting to fashion yourself a better club to beat people with. Of course I’m going to attempt to block that sort of thing, because it accomplishes nothing worth accomplishing. If you wish to try and steer Piranha into more player-friendly business practices, I highly, highly suggest you start with N.O.P.E. Piranha has certainly misstepped in the past – I very nearly canceled my Overlord preorder back in the day, and I did not buy the Saber pack because Piranha had managed to sufficiently piss me off during the space of time in which the Saber package was available – but they’ve also quite clearly put effort into mending their ways in more recent times.

No, that doesn’t mean one forgets everything Piranha did wrong before. But it does mean that if one has any interest whatsoever in seeing MWO succeed and grow, they also acknowledge what Piranha’s doing right now, and maybe stop being violently destructive trolls everywhere they can. If you, yourself, don’t want to support them because you don’t like/trust them yet, that is absolutely your decision to make.

But you don’t get to point your pointin’ finger at those of us who do support them. No, no you do not. Somebody has to pay the bills, and maybe if the N.O.P.E. guys weren’t such tremendous jerkbags, Piranha wouldn’t feel the need to employ effective-but-unpopular options like timed exclusives, hm?

#118 RussianWolf

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:35 AM

View PostAtheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Then you didn't comprehend the argument. Purchasing exclusive content to improve your own performance means you have attempted to pay for an advantage. If your performance improves as a result of your exclusive content purchase, then you have succeeded at paying for an advantage. Two separate principles, and it's really a tautology. You're basically arguing against the reliability of logic itself.


Whew... So I didn't P2W. I bought in to collect the mechs without all the grinding of cbills. So since I wasn't looking to gain an advantage, I didn't P2W. Now if I realized an advantage, tough nookie.

#119 1453 R

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:36 AM

View PostcSand, on 25 June 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

So now you're going to get Clan trial mechs to play around in


annnnnnd thread over, P2W argument crushed, have a wonderful day


Where'd they say this? Link if you would, I haven't seen it.

#120 Mystere

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:37 AM

I will have to say that I myself am in the "pay not to grind" crowd.

Now, did I also "pay to win"? Well, all i can say is:


Edited by Mystere, 25 June 2014 - 09:37 AM.






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