513 replies to this topic

[RussianWolf]

1453 R, on 25 June 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Where'd they say this? Link if you would, I haven't seen it.

Bishop Tweeted them and Niko replied saying they are on the way.

[Bishop Steiner]

oh mah gurd, I was a patch off about CBill releases!! That it, that indeed makes them P2W!!!!!!

[Mystere]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

There's absolutely no need to collect any data when everything's this obvious.

Is this the same "obvious" as "scholars" during the Middle Ages and earlier believing that the world is flat and that the Sun revolves around the Earth?

[Atheus]

1453 R, on 25 June 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

The problem comes when your attempt to reach that consensus has no objective beyond giving you firmer ground with which to point your pointin’ finger at anyone with an Ironclad badge (should I throw up my Overlord badge again, you think? Maybe make my arguments look more valid since I’m not then clearly and inarguably in Clan ‘Mechs myself?), and do the “You’re a bad person and you should feel bad!” thing.

Agreeing that something is or is not ‘P2W’, with no objective after that and no reasoning behind seeking the consensus in the first place, is nothing more than attempting to fashion yourself a better club to beat people with. Of course I’m going to attempt to block that sort of thing, because it accomplishes nothing worth accomplishing. If you wish to try and steer Piranha into more player-friendly business practices, I highly, highly suggest you start with N.O.P.E. Piranha has certainly misstepped in the past – I very nearly canceled my Overlord preorder back in the day, and I did not buy the Saber pack because Piranha had managed to sufficiently piss me off during the space of time in which the Saber package was available – but they’ve also quite clearly put effort into mending their ways in more recent times.

No, that doesn’t mean one forgets everything Piranha did wrong before. But it does mean that if one has any interest whatsoever in seeing MWO succeed and grow, they also acknowledge what Piranha’s doing right now, and maybe stop being violently destructive trolls everywhere they can. If you, yourself, don’t want to support them because you don’t like/trust them yet, that is absolutely your decision to make.

But you don’t get to point your pointin’ finger at those of us who do support them. No, no you do not. Somebody has to pay the bills, and maybe if the N.O.P.E. guys weren’t such tremendous jerkbags, Piranha wouldn’t feel the need to employ effective-but-unpopular options like timed exclusives, hm?

Consensus on basic terms is necessary to have a discussion.

Try this hypothetical. I have a house, and I have a dog that craps on the floor. I say to my room mates "Hey, we really need to train our dog not to crap on the floor; it really stinks in here!". To which my room mates respond "that's not crap, that's just a little dirt." Now instead of doing something useful like training the dog, we're discussing whether or not the stinky turds sitting on the floor are actually turds. Until we can reach a consensus on what exactly we are looking at, we can't even begin to address the root cause.

[Mercules]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Then you didn't comprehend the argument. Purchasing exclusive content to improve your own performance means you have attempted to pay for an advantage. If your performance improves as a result of your exclusive content purchase, then you have succeeded at paying for an advantage. Two separate principles, and it's really a tautology. You're basically arguing against the reliability of logic itself.

I paid to see if the Chicken Littles of MWO were correct in their assumptions after taking on Clans with my IS mechs and beating them. I purchased an inexpensive package since I play mostly lights and mediums anyway. I did this after looking through Smurfy because I wanted to see how paper translated to in-game. Guess what. The advantages Clan mechs have are balanced by the disadvantages they have.

P2W only applies if there is an actual advantage achieved. I went to see if there was that advantage. There isn't. The meta that applies to IS has carried over to a couple builds on the Clan side but that is to be expected and shows that the meta is still the meta DESPITE faction.

Your premise is flawed because one of your supporting arguments for it is false and it has to be true for the rest to work.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mercules, on 25 June 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

I paid to see if the Chicken Littles of MWO were correct in their assumptions after taking on Clans with my IS mechs and beating them. I purchased an inexpensive package since I play mostly lights and mediums anyway. I did this after looking through Smurfy because I wanted to see how paper translated to in-game. Guess what. The advantages Clan mechs have are balanced by the disadvantages they have.

P2W only applies if there is an actual advantage achieved. I went to see if there was that advantage. There isn't. The meta that applies to IS has carried over to a couple builds on the Clan side but that is to be expected and shows that the meta is still the meta DESPITE faction.

Your premise is flawed because one of your supporting arguments for it is false and it has to be true for the rest to work.

Wait, you mean...P2BDifferent....... is not P2W?!?!??!?!?!

[Mechteric]

While Hero mechs cannot be purchased by CBills, we know the Clan mechs will be available for CBills pretty soon. Why all the fuss again? Oh right, because the Internet is fussy and needs a wittle nappy time.

[1453 R]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Consensus on basic terms is necessary to have a discussion.

Try this hypothetical. I have a house, and I have a dog that craps on the floor. I say to my room mates "Hey, we really need to train our dog not to crap on the floor; it really stinks in here!". To which my room mates respond "that's not crap, that's just a little dirt." Now instead of doing something useful like training the dog, we're discussing whether or not the stinky turds sitting on the floor are actually turds. Until we can reach a consensus on what exactly we are looking at, we can't even begin to address the root cause.

Which misses the point I made, actually.

In your hypothetical, you do actually have an objective beyond the immediate consensus – training the dog not to crap on the floor. The proper analogue as concerns the Clan release and all these fiery-butthurt P2W threads over it is that the dog craps on the deck – not particularly desirable, but it is still outside and more easily dealt with – and you say to your roommates “Hey, the dog crapped on the deck. Let’s all find sticks and beat that dog up until he’s learned his lesson/I feel better.”

Your roommates, who may have gotten drunk and crapped on the deck themselves from time to time, instead say to you “Dude, overkill much? We’re training the dog now, give it a little bit more time and he’ll learn that the yard is where to go. No need to break the poor thing’s bones because he missed the mark, man.”

And yet you persist in your attempts to convince your buddies that beating the dog into a cringing, bloody pile of pain and shame is a much better plan for dealing with the crap on the deck, rather than waiting out the dog’s learning period and putting up with the occasional waft of stink until such time as he figures out where to go.

I am not a bad person for going in on the Invasion package. I refuse to feel bad for doing so. You cannot and will not change my mind on that stance, as the notion that I should feel personally responsible for Piranha’s business practices is pretty reprehensible, don’t you think?

[Ngamok]

True Life Victor-DS. It must be his clubs since no one else can buy them.

Edited by Ngamok, 25 June 2014 - 10:28 AM.

[Atheus]

Mercules, on 25 June 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

I paid to see if the Chicken Littles of MWO were correct in their assumptions after taking on Clans with my IS mechs and beating them. I purchased an inexpensive package since I play mostly lights and mediums anyway. I did this after looking through Smurfy because I wanted to see how paper translated to in-game. Guess what. The advantages Clan mechs have are balanced by the disadvantages they have.

P2W only applies if there is an actual advantage achieved. I went to see if there was that advantage. There isn't. The meta that applies to IS has carried over to a couple builds on the Clan side but that is to be expected and shows that the meta is still the meta DESPITE faction.

Your premise is flawed because one of your supporting arguments for it is false and it has to be true for the rest to work.

Thanks for actually addressing the argument, but you're not right. Upon investigation, you did not perceive that you were at an advantage, and I'll assume that you didn't manage to find a configuration that helps you, so, at least for now, you have not managed to find any advantages in your exclusive content. That does not mean that other players did not obtain any advantages from switching to Clan.

It doesn't matter what sort of play style a person uses. If it isn't "meta", or isn't smart — that is not actually relevant. Maybe they could improve their gameplay if they adopted a different strategy, or a different type of weapon, but for whatever reason they choose to play the way they play, and although everyone is "unique", there are plenty of other players who will do pretty much the same thing for similar reasons. This is good for the game, because if every last player adopted pop tarting when pop tarts were meta, and everyone adopted LRMs when LRMs were meta, that would be a boring, homogeneous game. So you have diverse play styles, diverse interests, and that's a good thing. For certain people, this will mean that a whole new set of weapons with unique attributes will absolutely help them out. Proof? There is already one guy willing to say that Clan gear works out better for him, and although I have no definitive proof that others exist, I'm comfortable saying he's not a rare example. But at least one guy managed to upgrade his game to a level not previously available to him by purchasing the clan tech update. He did not upgrade his skills, but he upgraded his power by finding a Clan mech that's better suited to his play style. The only people who have that same opportunity are the ones who bought clan.

Ngamok, on 25 June 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

True Life Victor-DS. It must be his clubs since no one else can buy them.

False equivalence.

Edited by Atheus, 25 June 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[Belorion]

I have yet to do as well with the DS as I do with my 9S

[Ngamok]

http://en.wikipedia....lse_equivalence

Really? Because you are basing that the people who did well in the tournament were using a VTR-DS thus it must be the best ever, hence your thread title saying you have proof.

http://cloud-2.steam...DA2EEBC65ED7C9/

I have proof that shows some of those people will do well in something similar as well as maybe some others.

[Fut]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Fut, on 25 June 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

If Clan mechs were really P2W, every single match played right now should only have Clan mechs left standing at the end.
How often is this happening?

Work on your comprehension.

Well, you claim that Clan Mechs are "Pay to Win", yet people have paid for them and they are still losing games.
It definitely seems like there's a flaw in your argument.

[Bobzilla]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Thanks for actually addressing the argument, but you're not right. Upon investigation, you did not perceive that you were at an advantage, and I'll assume that you didn't manage to find a configuration that helps you, so, at least for now, you have not managed to find any advantages in your exclusive content. That does not mean that other players did not obtain any advantages from switching to Clan.

It doesn't matter what sort of play style a person uses. If it isn't "meta", or isn't smart — that is not actually relevant. Maybe they could improve their gameplay if they adopted a different strategy, or a different type of weapon, but for whatever reason they choose to play the way they play, and although everyone is "unique", there are plenty of other players who will do pretty much the same thing for similar reasons. This is good for the game, because if every last player adopted pop tarting when pop tarts were meta, and everyone adopted LRMs when LRMs were meta, that would be a boring, homogeneous game. So you have diverse play styles, diverse interests, and that's a good thing. For certain people, this will mean that a whole new set of weapons with unique attributes will absolutely help them out. Proof? There is already one guy willing to say that Clan gear works out better for him, and although I have no definitive proof that others exist, I'm comfortable saying he's not a rare example. But at least one guy managed to upgrade his game to a level not previously available to him by purchasing the clan tech update. He did not upgrade his skills, but he upgraded his power by finding a Clan mech that's better suited to his play style. The only people who have that same opportunity are the ones who bought clan.


False equivalence.

My only problem with your definition of P2W is: if I do better, or even think I'm going to do better with a camo/pattern/cockpit item that must be purchased with MC, then camo/patterns/cockpit items are P2W. Clearly this is a silly example, but still, it really translates to all MC exclusive items are P2W in a F2P model because the effect is based on an individuals mind set.

[Atheus]

1453 R, on 25 June 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

In your hypothetical, you do actually have an objective beyond the immediate consensus – training the dog not to crap on the floor.

Right... but the whole point of the story is demonstrating that without consensus that there is a problem, it becomes impossible to even discuss a solution.

1453 R, on 25 June 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

...and you say to your roommates “Hey, the dog crapped on the deck. Let’s all find sticks and beat that dog up until he’s learned his lesson/I feel better.”

wtf? Suddenly I'm issuing a call for violence? No, I'm trying to reach a consensus on whether or not there is poop on the floor stinking up the house.

1453 R, on 25 June 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

Your roommates, who may have gotten drunk and crapped on the deck themselves from time to time, instead say to you “Dude, overkill much? We’re training the dog now, give it a little bit more time and he’ll learn that the yard is where to go. No need to break the poor thing’s bones because he missed the mark, man.”

Suddenly the room mates agree on the fact that there's crap on the floor? It would be nice if we could get to that point.

1453 R, on 25 June 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

And yet you persist in your attempts to convince your buddies that beating the dog into a cringing, bloody pile of pain and shame is a much better plan for dealing with the crap on the deck, rather than waiting out the dog’s learning period and putting up with the occasional waft of stink until such time as he figures out where to go.

Yeah all this senseless violence is your idea, not mine. You're trying to characterize me as some sort of moral bully. I just want people to see the turds that are sitting on the floor and say "Hey! There are turds on the floor. That stinks!" Is that too much to ask?

1453 R, on 25 June 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

I am not a bad person for going in on the Invasion package. I refuse to feel bad for doing so. You cannot and will not change my mind on that stance, as the notion that I should feel personally responsible for Piranha’s business practices is pretty reprehensible, don’t you think?

I didn't say you were a bad person. I just said that you have endorsed (apparently unwittingly) a release scheme which leverages people's interest in new content to create an imbalance such that if you pay in, you've got every tool a player can have to bring to the battlefield — but if you don't pay in, you're going to have to deal with the fact that for the next few months, sometimes there's a better tool for the job that will be shooting in your direction.

Bobzilla, on 25 June 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

My only problem with your definition of P2W is: if I do better, or even think I'm going to do better with a camo/pattern/cockpit item that must be purchased with MC, then camo/patterns/cockpit items are P2W. Clearly this is a silly example, but still, it really translates to all MC exclusive items are P2W in a F2P model because the effect is based on an individuals mind set.

Not quite. By -thinking- you'll do better, you're only embracing the principle of being able to pay for an advantage. By being wrong, you've marginalized your case to the point where nobody really needs to worry about your misconceptions.

Fut, on 25 June 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Well, you claim that Clan Mechs are "Pay to Win", yet people have paid for them and they are still losing games.
It definitely seems like there's a flaw in your argument.

Please work on your comprehension, and maybe actually reading the argument will help.

Edited by Atheus, 25 June 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[N a p e s]

Bobzilla, on 25 June 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

My only problem with your definition of P2W is: if I do better, or even think I'm going to do better with a camo/pattern/cockpit item that must be purchased with MC, then camo/patterns/cockpit items are P2W. Clearly this is a silly example, but still, it really translates to all MC exclusive items are P2W in a F2P model because the effect is based on an individuals mind set.

I only do well in purple mechs.

#Nerfpurple,#MWO=P2W, #L2PurpleNoobz

(god i hate myself for resorting to hashtags...)

[Rebas Kradd]

Can we please just stop dignifying this thread? We're up against one of those engineering students who thinks he has an irrefutable point because he can quote all the logical fallacies.

OP is clinging to technicalities, a rigid and mincing definition of P2W. If the CTF-3D can replicate all the advantages of the DS, then the DS's status as pay-to-win becomes so irrelevant that it loses any significant meaning. Likewise, if the Clans can be defeated by House mechs, as numerous player testimonials have indicated, then meaningful P2W does not exist either. Player behavior is a factor here, and you cannot simply say "A leads to D" without considering the effects of B and C. C, by the way, is the spurious factor of balance. Poptarting has elevated the DS to its dominant status. Remove that advantage via better balancing and the DS is merely a good mech, not a dominant one.

[qki]

pssst.

Look here:

http://mwomercs.com/...32#entry3506232

[Fut]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Please work on your comprehension, and maybe actually reading the argument will help.

Suppose you'll just continue to side-step any comments that are in opposition of your 'proven facts', right?
Oh well, we can't all be logical human beings.

[Bobzilla]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Not quite. By -thinking- you'll do better, you're only embracing the principle of being able to pay for an advantage. By being wrong, you've marginalized your case to the point where nobody really needs to worry about your misconceptions.

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Then you didn't comprehend the argument. Purchasing exclusive content to improve your own performance means you have attempted to pay for an advantage. If your performance improves as a result of your exclusive content purchase, then you have succeeded at paying for an advantage. Two separate principles, and it's really a tautology. You're basically arguing against the reliability of logic itself.

Your own words.

Being in the right mind (thinking you'll do better) has a lot to do with performance.

A cockpit item, could put you in the right mind giving you an advantage. Seeing as you paid MC for that cockpit item, and the advantage it provided you, it is P2W. Well they aren't, but by your definition they are so the definition of P2W cannot include items that have no actual improvement on a individual level. Meaning, just because a piticular person is better in a Griffon, which was exclusive, didn't make that Griffon P2W. So i'm saying the definition of P2W shouldn't include a indivdual experience, but would have to be a large margin.

Which does make this whole thing kinda useless as they will never give large stats to prove anything is P2W (weather it is or isn't) so there will only ever be opinions unless they show stats saying it isn't.