513 replies to this topic

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

Quote

Clan Mech's are not pay to win, they're pay for options. I want more options in how I play this game and therefore I bought some Clan Mech's. They don't make me win so they're not pay to win.

This is my favourite response. I sincerely hope this was said as a tongue in cheek joke.

[N0MAD]

Kilo 40, on 25 June 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

to add to my last comment

The reason it's not pay to win, is because the clan mechs

It all comes down to this...


[b]

The answer to the question is NO.

here endeth the lesson.

Again since there have been no instances (documented) of IS teams playing Clan teams to get any real evidence, then your NO statement is hype not fact.

[Mcgral18]

N0MAD, on 25 June 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

Wrong, there are more people saying it than just OP and Dunning.
Therefore your argument is completely wrong, move along.

And there are so many more saying otherwise.

Some clan weapons are slightly superior to their IS counterparts. Others are completely inferior.

Neither make a very big impact.

[Tzion]

There is one problem with your argument Atheus. You are arguing that on a subjective level clan mechs are to pay to win. I.E. I want to use the best possible mech for poptarting and so I will use the DS or the Timberwolf. Both of which are currently behind a pay wall. What your saying is that since my goal is to poptart and those two mechs are the best possible poptarts then they are now pay to win.

This argument is subjective in a couple of ways. First of all, their ptw status is based on what my goals are and not based on any objective reality. Secondly, this idea requires that I don't think that any of the other cbill mechs are better for my play style than the pay wall mechs.

Unfortunately, this argument creates a contradiction because the DS could be ptw to one person and not ptw at the same time to a different person. Therefore the statement that any mech is pay to win on a subjective level is irrelevant due to the impossibility of something to be and not to be at the same time.

There is only one way in which you could argue objectively that paywall mechs are ptw. They are ptw in that you get a cbill and xp bonus which is not available to the cbill variant.

[Atheus]

Keira_NZ, on 25 June 2014 - 11:10 PM, said:

Atheus please uninstall.

You can relax. I actually haven't played in about a week, and I probably will uninstall, since I don't particularly care to play at a disadvantage. The problem for you is that doesn't change any of the facts about P2W, or the forum community's resident denial squad making any meaningful discussion of the subject impossible.

Kilo 40, on 25 June 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

to add to my last comment

The reason it's not pay to win, is because the clan mechs

It all comes down to this...


[b]

The answer to the question is NO.

here endeth the lesson.

Wow. And people accused me of preaching. You forgot to say "Amen".

[Kilo 40]

N0MAD, on 25 June 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

Wrong, there are more people saying it than just OP and Dunning.
Therefore your argument is completely wrong, move along.

argument ad populum

N0MAD, on 25 June 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

Again since there have been no instances (documented) of IS teams playing Clan teams to get any real evidence, then your NO statement is hype not fact.

that would also mean that the statements by the op, you , and others, is also "hype not fact".

[Kilo 40]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

Wow. And people accused me of preaching. You forgot to say "Amen".

I'm not accusing you of preaching. I'm accusing you of making a bare assertion.

and if you can make a bare assertion(clan tech DOES improve peoples ability to win matches and/or kill enemies), then so can I(clan tech DOES NOT improve peoples ability to win matches and/or kill enemies).

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

MWO is not P2W. It's more like Pay to throw money away. PGI has the last dime I'll spend with them. I have a Founders Hunchback that's useless, added mechbays at a cost of $21 and spent $60 between the kids for there accounts. Done spending on MWO, so if it's around till 2020 that means I spent $10 roughly a year to play this thing...if anyone believes this will be around till 2020.

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

see...
Clan Autocannons so far arent better than IS ones
Clan Lights are SLOOOOOWWWWW
Most Clan chassis fix weapons into arms only making them easier than an IS mech to disarm
Only one Clan mech gets ECM for shielding teammates and that mech only hits 97kph and cannot be made faster. IS ECM chassis can hit 150.2 plus
Clan Beam weapons are hotter and need a longer ON TARGET time to transfer all their damage potential.
Most clan mechs mount weapons below the shoulder so arent as protected by terrain if they want to return fire.

Clan machines get access to 1/2ton ammo
Clan Mechs have awesome Streaks
Clan mechs have an instant target break perk
Clan mechs get CASE as standard
Clan mechs dont die from XL side torso destruction
The Clan get one light mech that can carry 3 AMS systems

Those pros and cons are, at least for now, pretty balanced.
They are sparse on ECM and AMS, concentrate it all into one light slowish machine that, when it goes down takes the lot with it. IS teams can spread the gear around.
They are slow and easy to catch out in the open and out flank
They have a twin Gauss/Twin PPC machine BUT its ponderous and even though it has CASE thats USELESS as its the gauss weapon itself that goes bang, not the ammo and Gauss cannons go boom alot!

They really aren't, CURRENTLY, the super weapons required to make them a PAY to WIN because winning is NOT guaranteed because you have a clan mech... at times its quite the opposite!

My Raven "Ebon Crow" with 2 ERLL, max Double Heatsinks, ECM, Adv Zoom, Sensor Range, 360 Target Retention, Target Decay, 150.2kph speed and Matt black paint is WAY more effective than the Clan machines I've used or fought against so far.

Edited by Keira_NZ, 25 June 2014 - 11:40 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

You can relax. I actually haven't played in about a week, and I probably will uninstall, since I don't particularly care to play at a disadvantage. The problem for you is that doesn't change any of the facts about P2W, or the forum community's resident denial squad making any meaningful discussion of the subject impossible.

So, you played for a day or two against the Clans, then declared them OP? Sorry, P2W.

Well, you won't be missed at any rate.

[Atheus]

Tzion, on 25 June 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

There is one problem with your argument Atheus. You are arguing that on a subjective level clan mechs are to pay to win. I.E. I want to use the best possible mech for poptarting and so I will use the DS or the Timberwolf. Both of which are currently behind a pay wall. What your saying is that since my goal is to poptart and those two mechs are the best possible poptarts then they are now pay to win.

This argument is subjective in a couple of ways. First of all, their ptw status is based on what my goals are and not based on any objective reality. Secondly, this idea requires that I don't think that any of the other cbill mechs are better for my play style than the pay wall mechs.

Unfortunately, this argument creates a contradiction because the DS could be ptw to one person and not ptw at the same time to a different person. Therefore the statement that any mech is pay to win on a subjective level is irrelevant due to the impossibility of something to be and not to be at the same time.

There is only one way in which you could argue objectively that paywall mechs are ptw. They are ptw in that you get a cbill and xp bonus which is not available to the cbill variant.

The objective reality is that you will not just hypothetically choose the DS or Timberwolf, you will actually do it, and pilot those mechs in game, benefiting from their advantageous nature. True, at that point it may only be an assumption on your part that those are the best choices for the chosen role, but you are probably basing that assumption on some evidence, whether it be your own experience, the experience of a group of people, or just your individual analysis of their capabilities. One way or an other, you are deciding that those are your best options, and will continue to think that until some evidence convinces you that you were wrong.

You can't then turn around and declare to anyone else that you think the game has no Pay to Win elements. That would just be dishonest.

Now to your "contradiction". Yes, it does seem like a paradox that something can be P2W for some players, but not to others. But just like in NOMAD's example, and in my terrible example earlier, just because certain players can't capitalize on a certain advantage does not mean that the ones who do are not receiving an advantage that they paid for which is not available to those who did not. If one person can benefit from an exclusive item, it would be silly to assume they are the only one. It is the capacity for that item to be used by a player for an advantage that makes it pay to win, whether every player can capitalize on that, or just 2. Maybe even 1. I'd have to think about that.

Mcgral18, on 25 June 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

So, you played for a day or two against the Clans, then declared them OP? Sorry, P2W.

Well, you won't be missed at any rate.

Ok complete stranger. I was definitely expecting you to miss me. I hope you feel better about this whole issue now that you've hurt my feelings.

Edited by Atheus, 26 June 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[qki]

I find it quite hillarious how Atheus backed away from an argument that started with http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3507501

He responded to my first post, and then nothing following my reply.

[N0MAD]

Kilo 40, on 25 June 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

argument ad populum



that would also mean that the statements by the op, you , and others, is also "hype not fact".

My argument is about P2W mechanics, not about clans.
I still maintain that in any game where you have items that are not cosmetic that are available for $ and not available for ingame currency are P2W. If that makes no commom sense to you so be it.
BTW, do you own Clan mechs?

[Atheus]

qki, on 25 June 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

I find it quite hillarious how Atheus backed away from an argument that started with http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3507501

He responded to my first post, and then nothing following my reply.

Well sorry about that. In case you haven't noticed I've been juggling about 8 conversations for the last day in here, and sometimes I just don't feel like pointing out every last fallacy. Your prior last post had exceeded my patience threshold.

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

Quote

I'm not accusing you of preaching. I'm accusing you of making a bare assertion.

and if you can make a bare assertion(clan tech DOES improve peoples ability to win matches and/or kill enemies), then so can I(clan tech DOES NOT improve peoples ability to win matches and/or kill enemies).

Actually, what he said was this

Quote

(clan tech DOES improve SOME peoples ability to win matches and/or kill enemies)

I added in the bit you missed. Maybe consider reading the OP?

[qki]

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

Well sorry about that. In case you haven't noticed I've been juggling about 8 conversations for the last day in here, and sometimes I just don't feel like pointing out every last fallacy. Your prior last post had exceeded my patience threshold.

I could blame it on the different time zones (it was about 1 AM here when I posted that and called it a night). Or on the fact that you simply could not find a counter-argument.

So how's that double standard of yours coming along?

[N0MAD]

Keira_NZ, on 25 June 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

My Raven "Ebon Crow" with 2 ERLL, max Double Heatsinks, ECM, Adv Zoom, Sensor Range, 360 Target Retention, Target Decay, 150.2kph speed and Matt black paint is WAY more effective than the Clan machines I've used or fought against so far.

So you post an example of the most Bugged/exploitable mech in game with all the bells and whistles traveling at 150kph with a NZ ping and you say its more effective?
Seems legit bro.

[Atheus]

qki, on 26 June 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

I could blame it on the different time zones (it was about 1 AM here when I posted that and called it a night). Or on the fact that you simply could not find a counter-argument.

So how's that double standard of yours coming along?

So your concern is that players deliberately using ineffective weapon systems who boost their play by buying other, better ineffective weapon systems are going to be accused of P2W. Part of me wants to say that he's going to play what he's going to play, and there are others just like him who want to play that way too. If he's a laser guy, then there are other laser guys. If he's an SRM guy, then there are other SRM guys. The difference is that if the laser guys and the SRM guys are both better off with clan, then that's that. They won't get to experience the joys of ballistics, but they will get to experience the joys of blowing away the laser guys and SRM guys who didn't buy the clan versions.

Yes, they didn't get an advantage over everyone, but they got an advantage over some, and furthermore reduced the gap between them and the ones they didn't topple. If there were no cash only content, that would never happen. Satisfied?

[El Bandito]

Clan mechs: Pay to Win? No. Pay to look good? Yes.

[Tzion]

To be clear I don't own any hero mechs or the clan mechs. I also do not own a victor and probably won't ever purchase one since I don't like the poptart game. My use of those mechs in my previous comment was in response to your op. I also do not really see any reason at this point to purchase those mechs. My goals are completely filled by the mechs that are available by cbills. I especially enjoy the Jaeger DD since it has 6 balistic hard points which makes for a great dual LBX, and quad machine gun build.

You did not respond though to my point that the only true pay to win characteristic of any paywall mech is the xp/cbill bonus.

What exactly do you see as being pay to win about the paywall mechs? In and of themselves they do not have any real benefit compared to their cbill counterparts. They do not have any extra armor, they have a different arrangement of hard points but those in and of themselves do not give an advantage. There are cbill mechs that have the same or better hard points.

The true difference is the skill level of the people running the mech. The competitive player is much better and has practiced alot more with those mechs than a regular player does. The dragon slayer is used so heavily because of the victor body style (same as cbills), the jumpjets (same as cbill version), and the weapon loadout (not the same). If the meta was to change to a different chassis being the best then the dragon slayer would fall away.

When I think pay to win I think of games where the bought items have huge differences between the paid for item and the non payed for item. In my mind the fact that I can destroy a hero mech just as easily as the cbill version does not translate to ptw. The only benefit to hero mechs is the cbill/xp bonus which allows the player to elite/master the mech faster is the only ptw aspect.