513 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Koniving, on 26 June 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

The real reasoning you see more Dragon Slayers than Victor 9S is pretty simple.
Dragon Slayers give a 30% cbill bonus.

Why play for chump change, when you can play for chump change + 30%?

Eh, this isn't true. The reason they're used is because their hardpoint locations are superior.
Most of the competitive players who run them really could care less about CBills at this point. They're sitting on, literally, billions of cbills.

[AlmightyAeng]

Actually, with the upcoming changes to Jumpjets, you may see more of the Victor 9S.

Right now, the Dragonslayer is considered "superior" because of the closer convergence between the ballistics in it's right arm, and right torso, and the ability to use it's left side as a shield.

With the JJ changes coming down the pipe, though, people might find that they are saving more boost for their touchdown, so they need to line up that shot quicker, and having BOTH the ballistics AND the PPC's in their arms may allow them to get that shot off faster, and take less leg damage.

Who knows. Pros and Cons. I use the Dragonslayer because of the C-Bills and the shield-side...I don't play nearly as much as I used to and that pile of C-Bills is comparatively small these days

Edited by Ghost Badger, 26 June 2014 - 08:46 AM.

[Koniving]

Roland, on 26 June 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Eh, this isn't true. The reason they're used is because their hardpoint locations are superior.
Most of the competitive players who run them really could care less about CBills at this point. They're sitting on, literally, billions of cbills.

Of all my Victors, I find the Dragon Slayer to have the worst hardpoints.

A torso mounted energy weapon is not particularly useful, if anything it's quite useless. The only true benefit is to have 3 PPCs instead of the typical limit of 2; but doing so comes at the cost of a valid and viable location for an actual heatsink. If I want that, I'd play a Highlander.

Much like the Heavy Metal I find to be superior to the Highlanders, because the arm-focused energy and ballistic hardpoints allow for incredible usability when it comes to hitting targets while twisted away as well as being anti-everything (Dragon Slayers have a lot of trouble with lights; ever seen the Victor cries? Only my Dragon Slayer has problems with them; every other Victor has every weapon handled via the arms from the Streaks to the lasers to the autocannons, giving the most amazing pinpoint control you can possibly get; superior to that of any Clan mech).

I barely use my Dragon Slayer because that energy hardpoint hurts it more than helps.
My other Victors? Those are my money makers.

Edited by Koniving, 26 June 2014 - 08:48 AM.

[Mercules]

Roland, on 26 June 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

I just read through that and it doesn't really seem to combat the notion of clan mechs being P2W, other than effectively making the suggestion that they do not convey an advantage. While that is certainly the case for the majority of clan mechs, there appear to be a few outliers which can be perceived as being advantageous compared to mechs which are currently available for in-game currency.

While it is true that certain outliers are an issue when discussing how powerful certain mechs are that is still not a P2W discussion. That is a "Broken Meta" discussion. The reason I do not consider it P2W is that there are available mechs that take advantage of the meta that can compete with and possibly even build for that meta better than the specific clan mech you are referring to. In addition, if the problems caused by the Meta were removed neither that mech nor the IS mechs taking advantage of it would be all that much "better" than other mechs.

Can I take advantage of the meta in a Clan Mech that is not available to people who haven't paid? The answer is yes which means we then have to ask ourselves if there is a way we can take advantage of that meta -to the same degree- with mechs that are available. The answer to that is yes as well which then means the clan package is not giving them an advantage that they couldn't have without paying.

[Harathan]

Roland, on 26 June 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Eh, this isn't true. The reason they're used is because their hardpoint locations are superior.
Most of the competitive players who run them really could care less about CBills at this point. They're sitting on, literally, billions of cbills.

Once again, a rare example of my agreeing with Roland. I think the DS pilots are more interested in hardpoints than C-Bills.

[Goose of Prey]

Quote

Nope, don't agree because it seems as though the most complaining about this game is being done by the people who do not want to pay to play this game and IMO they do not have the right to complain for something they are not paying for.

OK fine you don't want to buy into the Clan Mech release, don't, but don't complain about the people that do.

Wrong. C-bills are PAYING for clans the same as money for two reasons. First, C-bills are an exchange of time in game for money. Players are paid to play the game. This allows PGI to provide opponents without needing to invest in AI.

Second, Many of us buy Premium Time/Hero mechs. PT/Hero's give us extra C-bills but we must pay real money in order to get this, and then still play. So the C-bills I have are in part due to the cash I've spent on this game.

My C-biils are an investment and I want my return on that investment. It was paid for, and every bit as legitimate as your cash up front. We should not be made to third class customers because we give IGP/PGI our money in a different way than you did.

[Spleenslitta]

Kilo 40, on 24 June 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

that long rambling wall o'text didn't "prove" anything.

Exactly. From what i understand of the OP he is trying to say that some players gain an advantage while others don't.
That doesn't prove anything.

I haven't bought a clan mech because i'm a light mech user. I look at the Kit Fox/Adder and the first thing i think is "Slow".
The bigger clan mechs are fast for their size but not that much faster than IS mechs of equal size.

In any case i find that clan mechs get chewed up just as fast as IS mechs. Balance is near perfect between Clan an IS right now.

[RussianWolf]

As far as I'm concerned, they could release all the clan mechs for Cbills today and it wouldn't bother me. I didn't buy for early access or the boosts or the hardpoints.

I bought in so that I didn't have to grind for them later.

Could I have done so? Well, I have 130 mechs and 46 of them came from packages and another 15 or so are heroes. That leaves over 60 that I've already ground out including all the Atlases already.

As or the rest of this....... I'll leave it to you guys to figure out where the proof he claimed to have has disappeared to.

[Mercules]

Goose of Prey, on 26 June 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Wrong. C-bills are PAYING for clans the same as money for two reasons. First, C-bills are an exchange of time in game for money. Players are paid to play the game. This allows PGI to provide opponents without needing to invest in AI.

Second, Many of us buy Premium Time/Hero mechs. PT/Hero's give us extra C-bills but we must pay real money in order to get this, and then still play. So the C-bills I have are in part due to the cash I've spent on this game.

My C-biils are an investment and I want my return on that investment. It was paid for, and every bit as legitimate as your cash up front. We should not be made to third class customers because we give IGP/PGI our money in a different way than you did.

You will find that people who have bought Clan Packs also use and occasionally purchase Premium time. So your Premium time can be removed from the equation. What is left? C-Bill Mechs... those that bought the Clan Packs also buy those. Eliminate that from the equation. The only thing you are left providing is a warm body. Yes the game shuts down without warm bodies but that doesn't mean you can hold the game hostage demanding PGI give you the same things people who are actually giving them money get. If everyone could have everything for free right now, what would be the incentive to put the money forth? None.

You are not really arguing P2W but disparaging the fact that you don't get access to the same things right now because PGI wants to make money.

[Sandpit]

Ok couldn't resist lol
Last one though

OP is trying to make a legalistic argument. This is not a court of law.

This is a court of public opinion. Everything op talks about is subjective. Perceived advantages and hypothetical situations without ever having even tested the equipment he's claiming are p2w.

I make this distinction just to make the following point.

Loom through your thread op. Look through every other p2w thread. As a court of public opinion it should be quite clear that yhe vast majority disagree with p2w assertions. That's all that really should be needed to shoot down any p2w argument.

When more people agree with p2w than disagree then you have more validation. Until then it is not true because the community as a whole disagrees

Psst Russ (THIS is how you do it)
::drops mic::

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Atheus, on 24 June 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

But the reason they choose the DS over the 9S is because of the different positioning of the ballistic hard points.

The Victor Dragonslayer has one less energy in its left arm and 2 more in its right torso. That is the difference between the DS and the 9S. It has nothing to do with " ballistic hardpoints ". You can do the same exact meta build with the 9S or 9B.

Wanna know the real reason people got the Dragon Slayer? More CBILLS.

If your gonna troll the community with p2w at least get your facts straight. You are discredited.

YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY SIR!

[Atheus]

Ahh.. I come back to this...

Mr Bigglesworth, on 26 June 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Does any of this even matter?
Is this thread about P2W, Pay for an advantage, or pay for early access.

Ghost Badger, on 26 June 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

The problem is that the OP can't seem to see the distinction between those.

And there you have the nonsense idea that there is a distinction between those 3 things still floating around after 18 pages. This is the whole reason this thread exists. The guys who want to debate me on the subject are happy to let you guys wallow in your uselessness because in their mind it's fine if you don't know what pay to win means, and as a result you can never offer up any useful contribution to a discussion of what to do about an actual pay to win mechanic, since you'll be totally hung up on the idea that it's not pay to win because eventually the pay to win stuff will become available for free, or because (hilariously) the thing doesn't automatically make you win. (Whoa another mega sentence! Cower before my sentence-paragraphs!)

You other guys that are waiting on a response, we'll see. You may in fact wear me down by repeating the same things over and over again, and chances are you could answer your own questions by reading the first 18 pages of this thread. In fact, most of the time the answer is in the original post, but I'll come take a look at your situation a little bit later on.

[Mcgral18]

Alwrath, on 26 June 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

The Victor Dragonslayer has one less energy in its left arm and 2 more in its right torso. That is the difference between the DS and the 9S. It has nothing to do with " ballistic hardpoints ". You can do the same exact meta build with the 9S or 9B.

Wanna know the real reason people got the Dragon Slayer? More CBILLS.

If your gonna troll the community with p2w at least get your facts straight. You are discredited.

YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY SIR!

Well, from what I've read and seen it's the shield arm and torso. You stay combat effective as long as you keep your right torso.

Cbill Victor's don't have that option, you either shield with your guns or your PPCs.

It's the risk VS reward. Lose 50%, or lose everything/nothing.

[Almond Brown]

Kilo 40, on 24 June 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

that long rambling wall o'text didn't "prove" anything.

Oh yes it did. It proved that my investment in Aluminum Mines is still a very good one. LOL!

[Almond Brown]

Vassago Rain, on 24 June 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

stuff

Paying to win doesn't mean you literally win by default.

stuff

OMG! So if P2W is not a literal term, then WTF is all the fuss about? The OP obviously uses the term in a literal manner otherwise he has wasted not only his own time, but everyone else's who has responded in the thread. Myself included.

So, in a nutshell the Forum term P2W does not actually mean Pay 2 Win. We are straight in this now are we? omfg

[Sandpit]

Almond Brown, on 26 June 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

OMG! So if P2W is not a literal term, then WTF is all the fuss about? The OP obviously uses the term in a literal manner otherwise he has wasted not only his own time, but everyone else's who has responded in the thread. Myself included.

So, in a nutshell the Forum term P2W does not actually mean Pay 2 Win. We are straight in this now are we? omfg

Lol I asked the op to define what he meant a long time ago. That was answered with "that's like trying to define the word "is"
That should have been the first clue lol

Anyone who doesn't want to give a clear definition of their meaning simply wants to keep it vague in order to prevent anyone else from disputing their claims. Happens in court all the time. That's how I knew early on what he was trying to do

[Kyle Wright]

Goose of Prey, on 26 June 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Wrong. C-bills are PAYING for clans the same as money for two reasons. First, C-bills are an exchange of time in game for money. Players are paid to play the game. This allows PGI to provide opponents without needing to invest in AI.

Second, Many of us buy Premium Time/Hero mechs. PT/Hero's give us extra C-bills but we must pay real money in order to get this, and then still play. So the C-bills I have are in part due to the cash I've spent on this game.

My C-biils are an investment and I want my return on that investment. It was paid for, and every bit as legitimate as your cash up front. We should not be made to third class customers because we give IGP/PGI our money in a different way than you did.

WRONG... CBILLS do not pay the DEVs mortgage, car payments, food,etc... CBILLS are equivalent to the widget as they are a fictional item with no real life value other then that which is determined by the DEVs

[AlmightyAeng]

Atheus, on 26 June 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

More random bullshit

There are people here waiting on a response from you? After summarily telling you that you're wrong, most of us moved into sub-discussions tangentially related to your OP.

We kinda forgot about you...our intention isn't to convince you of anything, it's out to point to people that read your thread that you're wrong, and in the minority.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 26 June 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Turboferret]

Atheus, on 25 June 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

You can relax. I actually haven't played in about a week, and I probably will uninstall.

Yes. Accept your glorious destiny.

[Burakumin1979]

Sorry, but the entire P2W argument boils down to a very simple concept that accounts for pilot skill while clearly identifying something as P2W.

"Duplication of Results"

When looking at a game mechanic, can the result be duplicated by something not for sale?

Case 1: Victor-DS
Test Standard: A DS can produce 2k damage as a jump sniper.
Test Question: Can any other version of the Victor do that?
Test Answer: Of course it can. (Utilization of cover, timing, tactical movement - all subjective and player defined.)
Verdict: Not P2W as results can be duplicated with non purchasable assets.

Case 2: Golden LRMS of Doom
Test Standard: GLRMoD cause 5 damage per missile that hits.
Test Question: Can normal LRMS cause 5 damage per missile that hits?
Test Answer: No.
Verdict: GLRMoDs are P2W as their results can not be duplicated by non purchasable assets.

Edited by Burakumin1979, 26 June 2014 - 10:46 AM.