Marack Drock, on 26 May 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:
Wow.
Step by step then.
Yeah, you are acting like a fanboy obsessively defending the Clans (esp. Wolf). You might not be a Wolf fan, but you're certainly acting like one and every response where you backpedal and defend their nonstop winning reinforces it. Quickly trying to turn around and say "Well nu-uh because I also spent 2 years researching theses other two factions" doesn't do a whole lot to help your case. Kind of just feels like a knee-jerk backpedal, but hey I do genuinely admire your dedication to the lore. Only problem I have is you're trying to put words in my mouth, and you're "countering" arguments I never even made.
Just because "honorable" warfare existed doesn't mean it makes sense. Nazism and racism also exist, but those make no more sense than bidding away forces in a battle. Their caste system also makes no more sense than the Indian caste system. Their entire society, while certainly interesting, also makes very little sense from a real-world standpoint.
Yes, our society does enjoy violence. I play lacrosse in college and certainly love a good hit. I box, and I love watching UFC. I don't watch Nascar (F1 is better imo) but I know people like that too. What I said was, a society that glorifies war is naive. The things you cited were (save dueling) organized events designed as both an outlet for people's aggression and as tests of skill. We don't glorify war (some individuals probably do, but they are just silly) so all your examples are irrelevant. I said war, not violence. Don't try to misquote me to make your argument stronger. You'll also note that I never said that the idea of keeping casualties down is bad, but the fact that the Clans are a society that glorifies war for its own sake is patently insane. Sure, dress it up however you want, try to put rules and regulations in it, but at the end of the day war is war and it is almost always the least-desirable course.
Literally everything I said was fact. You are grasping at straws for argument's sake. I never once said the IS consistently beat the Clans, I said Focht beat them on Tukk and the Star League wiped out the Jags. Both those things happened. Focht won fair and square even with inferior forces, and the SLDF defeated the entirety of Clan Smoke Jaguar, first driving them out of the IS (Operation Bulldog, where the Jags had something like 8 (under strength) galaxies in their occupation zone) then beating them on their homeworld (Operation Serpent, where the IS did posses the advantage until the remainder of the Jags returned and evened the odds.) I also never said honor-bound war didn't take place, I said the Clans idea of it is naive. Which it is. Ask a soldier. Ask me, I'm shipping out with the Navy next year. Honor duels and bidding don't happen in real war. In real war, you beat the other guy with what's available to you in the fastest most efficient way you can. We're very good at it, and given the same level of tech and skill I'm confident the US military would crush the Clans at every turn until they learned the same lesson Sherman tought the South: total war sucks, especially when you're on the receiving end. The fact that you keep defending their ridiculous honor ******** reeks of someone with little actual experience. If you'd like, I can talk to you in private messages about the friends and family I've lost to war and all the reasons why it's nothing to be ******* praised.
Well, I'm an adult so I can admit fault. You're right, the FWL is not a true democracy, though it is also not a monarchy. The Captain-Generalship is not a monarch, They certainly have broad power, but the position is not subject to any rule of primogeniture which invariably passes power down within the family. The fact that it's always a Marik is because of their family's role in the formation of the Star League. It has simply been a historical precedent keeping it hereditary since then as far as I'm aware.
Nowhere did I say the Clans didn't win plenty. What I did say is that their idea of war is naive, which it is. Bidding away forces and declaring 1v1 duels in battle is ridiculous. Ask literally anyone who has ever been to war if it's a good idea to tell the enemy about your disposition or hamstring yourself with pointless rules. Their "zellbringen" is as funny as it is insane from a real-world combat perspective, and virtually every Clan victory can be attributed to three things: overwhelmingly superior technology, their troops being born and raised to fight (making them better on a man-for-man basis than their IS counterparts) and the total surprise that cam with the invasion (most IS governments were totally unresponsive for months on end, hampering any effort to fight back)
And no, I'm not completely wrong. For all your touting yourself as well-read, you seem to contingently forget that the Jags had to devote huge numbers of troops to garrison Kurita worlds because of the constant insurgency there. They had to call up reinforcements from back home because the problem got so bad. So yes, they were bogged down. I also don't recall the Clans attacking each other during the invasion, so I'd love to see a reference for that. You also keep talking about the Wolves defeating the other Clans; I am not sure if you realize it, but I'm talking about Revival. When did the Wolves defeat other Clans during the invasion? I know about what when down later on the homeworlds with the absorptions and whatnot, but I don't think the Wolves ever fought against their fellow clanners during Revival...
You say I manipulate facts, but rather than respond in any meaningful way to what I said, you are fabricating arguments that suit you. Most of the points you made were in response to things I never even said.
To recap:
1. You reference castes and honor existing. I never said they didn't exist, just that they aren't smart. So you fail to respond to that point.
2. You reference the Clans victories. I never said they didn't win often, I said they are naive. They are, and they lost because of it. So you failed to respond here as well.
3. You reference contact sports and dueling. I never said we aren't a naturally violent race, what I said was a society that glorifies war is naive. Which it is. You fail to respond yet again.
4. You say the Wolves won often because they did what we call "reconnaissance". If the Clans weren't such a volatile mix of arrogant and ********, they would have done the same. The fact that only the Wolves have any common sense at all proves that they are Mary Sues. So, again, you fail to respond to the actual point (that is, the Wolves are Mary Sues)
5. You call me "completely wrong"... but you didn't even respond to what i said... The Clans idea of war is naive. That's a fact. They were bogged down with resistance. Also a fact. The FWL isn't a dictatorship (at least not in the autocratic sense you are talking about, though the Cap-Gen does have greater and greater power as the timeline goes on).
Now, unless you have some valid point to make I believe I'm done responding here.
7
- i roleplay the dark side nao
