26 replies to this topic

[Stomp]

Cross-post from Feature Suggestions because I feel like my idea is a good one and I want everybody to see it. If this isn't allowed, devs please lock this thread, but please leave it up, I want visibility.

Simply put, and because I don't feel like writing four pages like I normally do;

NERF XL ENGINES.
Not in terms of weight.
Not in terms of speed.
Then HOW, Stomp, you insufferable troll? Get to the point!
I think they shouldn't impact torso twist speeds as much as they do now.

But first a bit of history: Consider the problems MWO has suffered in the past, and in the present as well;

• Victors mounting Dual AC/5 Dual PPC snipe fests.
  
• Cataphract 3Ds mounting Dual PPC/ Gauss Rifles.
  
• Dual AC/20 Jagermechs.
  
• The list goes on.

Note: Don't read this if you like PPC/AC builds and think you're hot stuff. I'm about to yuck your yum. Fair warning!

Humans have a natural tendency to cut the bullshit and make things more efficient. Simply put, XL engines + big guns makes killing mechs very, very efficient. PGI to their credit have tried multiple things; Ghost heat has made running AC40 Jagers extremely hot. Gauss Rifle charge times desyncs the damage output of snipers, making it much more difficult. They've slowed ballistics reload times and shell flight times.

What I think it could address:
But it hasn't addressed our high alpha, pinpoint damage metagame. Why is that? Simply put, XL engines maneuverability, speed, and power/ton has allowed this type of loadout building to exist. The Atlas, the best inner sphere Assault mech, is meant to be the most terrifying mech in the game. Why? Because with the largest armor/ton and weapons/ton of any mech in the game, it is a juggernaut of pain and destruction. It mounts every weapon type in the game, a STANDARD engine, making it outlive any XL mounted Assault, and STILL brings so much firepower a stronger pilot than I might consider crapping himself. But in the current stages the game is in, this mighty war machine is passed over for lighter assaults. It's because they are outperformed by faster assaults with better damage outputs and more responsive targeting.

Nerf XL Engine's ability to increase the speed at which you torso twist. Ever noticed getting a bigger engine makes you aim faster? Light mechs especially can torso twist so fast, it makes your head spin. But light mechs aren't necessarily the problem. A fast light is difficult to deal with, but a well placed AC/20 shot is always a quick remedy. The problem is the high alpha build potentials of these heavies and assaults mounting XL engines that fast, reactionary, and able to field much more firepower. To counter this situation, I'm suggesting a nerf for all XL engines on all mechs to varying degrees of torso twist speed. I'll show you what I'm talking about:

PLACEHOLDER NUMBERS TO ILLUSTRATE
Lights
XL Engine torso twist reduction: 25%

Mediums
XL Engine torso twist reduction: 35%

Heavies
XL Engine torso twist reduction: 50%

Assaults
XL Engine torso twist reduction: 65%

This would impact vertical and side to side movement of torsos for mechs of these types. Lights are currently not as troublesome, which means they'll be able to bring much less anyway, especially as max XL engines ensure they can survive engagements and escape. Leg turning would be unaffected, as it's not really a problem. The nerf to XL engines will encourage people to mount much heavier STD engines if they want to keep their ability to aim quickly, which means bringing significantly less weaponry than they would with an XL engine.

BUT WAIT, oh ye naysayers, I'm not done! What if, crazy as it may be, A STD engine would not take any of these nerfs? Assaults all running STD engines took FOREVER to kill, as is evident from my experience in closed Beta. This would encourage much more survivable builds, leading a mix of STD and XL engine builds in the game to thrive equally in their own ways; XL mechs might bring more firepower to a fight, but STD Assaults can lead a push against enemies. In these types of situations, the Atlas begins to shine again! A STD engine and maximum guns ensures this mech will bring its weapons to bear on any stupid enough to stop its charge, and still take a beating and keep on ticking.

I'm not saying XL mechs are horrible. I love the poptarts, as much as it pains to admit; lots of friends I know run them. I've tried back in the day, but jumping up and down just ain't my style. This unintended buff to STD engine mounting mechs might liven the lineups we've seen lately; A Shadowhawk might be passed over in favor of the quick-aiming Hunchback with its nasty AC/20, although an XL Shawk is still quite favorable given it's loadout and quick reaction to captures on points.

I know what some of you are thinking. "But Stomp, you moron, ALL Clan mechs run XL Engines! A nerf to XLs is a nerf to clanners!" Well, I think clanners can all burn you podborn filth that Clan mechs would still be viable given their huge potential as damage dealers. But, in the efforts of fairness, I think Clan mechs should be exempt from SOME of the torso twists nerf, but not by much. A couple percent or 5, but they should still be subject to the same rules. I feel bad that Clan mechs don't have the option to upgrade/downgrade the sizes of their XL engines, but PGI has decided that's a hard limit for them, so take it up with them to allow small pools of engines both beneath and up from their original stock configurations. Maybe with an XL engine nerf, we could see greater customization of Clan configurations to allow for this, but this is literally vaporware and theorycrafting, so I won't bother speculating much.


That's pretty much it, discuss if you'd like, add feedback, tell me it's a scrap idea or praise me as the god I am, either or. Like and share this if you like, I'm gonna crosspost to General Discussions as well, make sure to write your feedback here, as devs check this place FIRST for suggestions!

Backstory and why I don't like PPC/AC/XL/Alpha metagame, and what possessed me to do more about it:

Anybody who knows me knows I'm a huge Battletech lore buff, I know how to spell Tukayyid, I can give you the stock loadouts and configs for clans/IS, I know more about Great Houses than I should, and I seriously eat this scrap up. My need to see more STD engines comes from my fear of the Atlas, which this tends to revolve around; or rather, as today would have it, my lack of fear. I play lights/mediums with the occasional heavy fairly regularly, and I should **** my pants every time I see an Atlas on field. But I really... don't. This lack of fear and knowledge of my own piloting vs. his means that I can wholeheartedly barrel through an enemy team, snipe an Atlas' RT, and zip back out. An XL engine nerf means I have to be much more careful, as I won't be relying on my team's pinpoint dmg neeeaaar enough to know I can take apart this Atlas. It means I myself won't be able to aim as fast as possible.

But for anybody not aware of the world of Battletech, it paints a gruesome picture of constant wars of attrition pitting century-old Battlemechs against each other. Great Houses are so broke, they can only field the bare minimums on backwater planets. Mechs like the Urbanmech live and breathe in this environment. Panthers as light mech snipers exist purely because encountering such big mechs is so rare; a PPC does the trick against mediums and lights, and also has enough punch to weaken bigger mechs.

The Atlas serves as a vanguard in any competent House's stables in any pitched fight to secure a planet because it can take a lick and keep ticking... forever. They are the scariest mechs to fight because they live forever, and kill everything. This idea of the STD engine Assault mech that people learn to dread fighting against is what I'm talking about. It shouldn't be an "oh **** I'm scared" moment when you see an Atlas, it should be a deep and pervading dread that if you don't organize your own assaults to take it down, you will be punished with fire and death. The Victor was a quick Assault meant to provide backup for such a mech, with it's Devastator AC/20 and medium lasers peeling the layers off Battlemechs so that the Atlas can slowly trawl through the fray, tearing apart anything left standing. It's hand actuators and fully articulated arms means that anything it can't gun down, it will F***ing punch in the face, rip its' arms off, and beat to death with said arms. Fights on planets are so fierce that civilian casualties are very, very common.

Great Houses tear each other apart for the resources on planets to continue making Battlemechs they no longer understand, in factories so old they are the #1 target for captures. Steal a House's battlemech production, and you can effectively bolster your forces with captured Battlemechs. This makes for a dynamic universe that scrabbles over the meagerest of resources to continue to keep their ancient war machines alive; a universe where XL engines are the most expensive items. Community warfare is my greatest hope for this game; the ability to seize and control your opponents' ability to restock their own armies seems like such an amazing goal, and so creating sneak attacks securing HPGs to black out a region of space to ensure the ease of capturing bases creates such a level of immersion I can only hope PGI scratches the surface. Don't let me down you guys!

[Koniks]

Let's stop proposing solutions that hit brawling harder.

[FupDup]

Better idea: Have each chassis in the game have a set amount of agility that does not change based on engine rating.

This would help to reduce the "arm's race" currently going on where most of the builds in the game try to squeeze in the biggest engine they can, because you gain so much for doing so (heatsink slots, agility, and speed).

[Stomp]

Mizeur, on 26 June 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Let's stop proposing solutions that hit brawling harder.

I don't get it. Hit brawling how? Any respectable brawler knows he gets focused fast, and therefore brings a standard engine. XL Assaults are relegated to sniping and poptarting, which is literally the biggest pro meta tourney style build foreva, given you can't counterattack after they hide behind the hill. More info needed please.

Edited by Stomp, 26 June 2014 - 09:03 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

How about everything get's modified on a case by case basis, thus pushing each specific mech into it's intended role though focused quirks based on the mech, instead of blanket solutions that impact everything at once?

Oh wait, no one wants that, because it's too much work... well guess what, it would fix the issues. ENOUGH WITH THE BLANKET FIXES, FOCUS ON MECHS ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS!

Also, OP's preposal isn't hitting brawling builds. if you're bringing an XL engine to a brawl, you're doing it horribly wrong.

Edited by Flash Frame, 26 June 2014 - 08:56 AM.

[Stomp]

FupDup, on 26 June 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

Better idea: Have each chassis in the game have a set amount of agility that does not change based on engine rating.

This would help to reduce the "arm's race" currently going on where most of the builds in the game try to squeeze in the biggest engine they can, because you gain so much for doing so (heatsink slots, agility, and speed).

I don't actually mind people mounting bigger engines for those reasons though. It's what they're for, right? A competitive build that allows for agility, speed, AND firepower. Seems to me XL Engines fit the bill for that. Why punish the guy bringing the STD345 Atlas? He's gotta sacrifice some serious tonnage for that bad boy. A set agility limit on a mech means STD engines get shafted too. Maybe both could be used, an agility limit + XL aiming liability. I like your idea, but it would hurt some people with STDs that don't need it.

[Stomp]

Flash Frame, on 26 June 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

How about everything get's modified on a case by case basis, thus pushing each specific mech into it's intended role though focused quirks based on the mech, instead of blanket solutions that impact everything at once?

Oh wait, no one wants that, because it's too much work... well guess what, it would fix the issues. ENOUGH WITH THE BLANKET FIXES, FOCUS ON MECHS ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS!

Also, OP's preposal isn't hitting brawling builds. if you're bringing an XL engine to a brawl, you're doing it horribly wrong.

Thanks for the response. I meant that the torso twists would be on a bit of a case by case basis, in regards to weight anyway. For instance, all 60 tonners would be hit equally. Also, I do support chassis quirks, +7% armor for Atlas RT/CT/LT, +10% to Hunchback RT, etc etc. Or a lower torso buff speed for Commandos, reversable arms for the Quickdraw, reduced cooldown of medium/small ACs on Jagermechs, Awesome with increased PPC heat efficiency, the list could go on and on. Thanks for the reply, again.

[Mcgral18]

Stomp, on 26 June 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

I don't get it. Hit brawling how? Any respectable brawler knows he gets focused fast, and therefore brings a standard engine. XL Assaults are relegated to sniping and poptarting, which is literally the biggest pro meta tourney style build foreva, given you can't counterattack after they hide behind the hill. More info needed please.

Well, the WubShee brings an XL for optimal cooling efficiency.

SHDs normally bring XLs, whether they are Metahawks or Splathawks.

Bjs, Victor were very nice brawlers until that nerf came along. Just about every Clan mech gets nerfed.


It's nice in theory, but lots of collateral damage.

[Bobzilla]

Stomp, on 26 June 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

I don't actually mind people mounting bigger engines for those reasons though. It's what they're for, right? A competitive build that allows for agility, speed, AND firepower. Seems to me XL Engines fit the bill for that. Why punish the guy bringing the STD345 Atlas? He's gotta sacrifice some serious tonnage for that bad boy. A set agility limit on a mech means STD engines get shafted too. Maybe both could be used, an agility limit + XL aiming liability. I like your idea, but it would hurt some people with STDs that don't need it.

Top speed, should really have nothing to do with base agility.

It would be much easier to balance mechs if everything other than top speed were set. The biggest difference would be chasis that have different engine caps.

[Stomp]

Mcgral18, on 26 June 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Well, the WubShee brings an XL for optimal cooling efficiency.

SHDs normally bring XLs, whether they are Metahawks or Splathawks.

Bjs, Victor were very nice brawlers until that nerf came along. Just about every Clan mech gets nerfed.


It's nice in theory, but lots of collateral damage.

Well that's the idea behind this post; the idea is to change how people think about fighting. We're so used to fast fights the thought of prolonged fighting is out the window. I feel the only reason to take an XL in an Assault is as a poptart. But since it's only poptarts, and nothing else, something needs to be done.

[Mcgral18]

Stomp, on 26 June 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Well that's the idea behind this post; the idea is to change how people think about fighting. We're so used to fast fights the thought of prolonged fighting is out the window. I feel the only reason to take an XL in an Assault is as a poptart. But since it's only poptarts, and nothing else, something needs to be done.

But it's not only poptarts. The downside to XL engines is the fact if you lose a ST, you die.

Now, if you wanted to adjust twist speed to always be the same, no matter the engine size, that would be something. Give worse variants a better twist rate.

Have the engine affect speed only.


Not only poptarts take XL engines.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Not feeling this.

If there was one XL change I would make, it would be to Clan XL. Maybe reduced performance in speed or agility if one of the side torsos is gone. Even then, I am not entirely sure that nerf is entirely warranted.

[Foxwalker]

Mizeur, on 26 June 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Let's stop proposing solutions that hit brawling harder.

Stomp, on 26 June 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

I don't get it. Hit brawling how? Any respectable brawler knows he gets focused fast, and therefore brings a standard engine. XL Assaults are relegated to sniping and poptarting, which is literally the biggest pro meta tourney style build foreva, given you can't counterattack after they hide behind the hill. More info needed please.

I brawl more often than snipe and find that turn speed and twist speed are the key to staying alive even more than a Standard engine during a brawl. If you can not keep him in your reticule, you can's shoot him.

Edited by Foxwalker, 26 June 2014 - 10:21 AM.

[Koniks]

Stomp, on 26 June 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

I don't get it. Hit brawling how? Any respectable brawler knows he gets focused fast, and therefore brings a standard engine. XL Assaults are relegated to sniping and poptarting, which is literally the biggest pro meta tourney style build foreva, given you can't counterattack after they hide behind the hill. More info needed please.

Slow lights and mediums are dead lights and mediums. The ERLL/ERPPC ECM mechs are the only ones that wouldn't be hurt by this. And it would affect some heavy mechs as well.

For instance, just about every SHD build that doesn't take an AC20 uses an XL engine. So unless you're taking an AC20 and 2xML, you pretty much have no options besides poptarting.

The VTR brawler, which already had its agility nerfed, is optimal with an XL325 or XL350. But already rarely used.

Poptarts don't need the mobility because all they have to do is jump, shoot, land, repeat. Which is why the VTRs are still used for it.

So fine, we make the switch. Everyone uses STD engines now. Compared to the Clans, the IS has just taken a big hit to the amount of firepower it has at any range and they're so slow that even if they could brawl, they'd never get in range.

Edited by Mizeur, 26 June 2014 - 01:14 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Divorce agility from engine rating altogether. Make it a variant-specific stat and be done with it.

[Stomp]

Mizeur, on 26 June 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

Slow lights and mediums are dead lights and mediums. The ERLL/ERPPC ECM mechs are the only ones that wouldn't be hurt by this. And it would affect some heavy mechs as well.

For instance, just about every SHD build that doesn't take an AC20 uses an XL engine. So unless you're taking an AC20 and 2xML, you pretty much have no options besides poptarting.

The VTR brawler, which already had its agility nerfed, is optimal with an XL325 or XL350. But already rarely used.

Poptarts don't need the mobility because all they have to do is jump, shoot, land, repeat. Which is why the VTRs are still used for it.

So fine, we make the switch. Everyone uses STD engines now. Compared to the Clans, the IS has just taken a big hit to the amount of firepower it has at any range and they're so slow that even if they could brawl, they'd never get in range.

I understand your points, but creating an environment where mediums and lights will survive if they don't mount an XL for speed is the goal of this post. With more assaults running STD engines, the overall capability of snipers to boat huge weapon loads would go down, which I believe would mean playing a light/medium running a smaller engine would definitely stand a fighting chance. I remember when STD engine centurions were the cream of the crop, because the alpha from STD assaults just couldn't put one down, they lived forever. There's a reason people hate Zombie builds. I just want to create ideas that will help them thrive in that environment again.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 26 June 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

Divorce agility from engine rating altogether. Make it a variant-specific stat and be done with it.

I wouldn't mind this so much, given that certain mechs should just aim slower than others. A divorced agility/engine metric would create the ability to further tweak mech chassis, the Awesome is just so sad with his PPCs right now.

[Vassago Rain]

Why is it that almost every suggestion ever outright kills brawling and lights?

[Deathlike]

It is amazing how Lights practically gets collateral damage from this idea.

It is virtually mandatory to use XL engines in Lights. So, I'll completely reject the idea outright.

Besides, you're also indirectly hurting the Cicada even more.

[Stomp]

Vassago Rain, on 26 June 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

Why is it that almost every suggestion ever outright kills brawling and lights?

Because lights really need that torso twist speed? Coming at this as a light/medium pilot, they turn so fast it wouldn't hurt them nearly as much. And because everybody ( not necessarily you ) seems to think that it's a scaling XL nerf, that is not what I mean. It's a flat penalty for dropping an XL of any size into your mech, not just big ones. And brawling has been dead a loooong time. I finally yesterday saw a SRM mech yesterday. I can't tell you the last time I saw somebody use them.

Deathlike, on 26 June 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

It is amazing how Lights practically gets collateral damage from this idea.

It is virtually mandatory to use XL engines in Lights. So, I'll completely reject the idea outright.

Besides, you're also indirectly hurting the Cicada even more.

They're just placeholder numbers. Says so right there. It's not a final idea, just a proof of concept showing how it might work. >.>

edit: sp

Edited by Stomp, 26 June 2014 - 10:45 PM.

[Dymlos2003]

Want a better solution? You can't change engines. You can only upgrade to XL/STD. Done.