42 replies to this topic

[HlynkaCG]

Koniving, on 08 January 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

...That is what the Deteriorating Rate concept is attempting to recreate.

Ok that is a little more clear but the problem as I see it is that your dueling heat-scales create a bit of a perverse incentive. It doesn't just "allow you fire off quite an alpha" it actively encourages you to do so at the expense of chain-firing which seems to be the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

ETA:
Why shoot just a PPC when you can shoot a PPC and LRMs together for similar heat?

Edited by HlynkaCG, 08 January 2015 - 06:52 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Koniving, on 08 January 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

It's not bad and looks like it will work alright with how MWO is. It also does not lock overall threshold, which honestly I'm less than thrilled with.

Yeah, I've been wrestling with what I like best to limit alphas a bit without being punitive and between headaches and lacking sleep, I just posted how the original BT system might look in MWO as a second idea compared to my initial idea that is in a separate post.

I added another one with a static 60 scale and showed more dissipation rates side by side.

An alternative I've been thinking about is suggesting a default chainfire mode of firing weapons no matter the grouping. What I've been thinking about has been about what would be a decent interval that would be a bit shorter than the current chain fire we have.

And I was thinking that we would still be able to semi-auto rapidfire from the chain-fire mode (repeatedly clicking the fire button in chain fire mode). And as an alternative to this the Alpha-Strike key would allow all weapons to be fired at once, but it could have a sort of spread in focal point similar to how firing when applyinf JJ thrust scatters weapon fire.

[kapusta11]

You guys are mixing two separate issues. MWO lacks both proper Heat Scale AND Hit Allocation. The purpose of heat system is not to limit alphas, it's to make light weight energy weapons even in weight and crit space with ballistics by forcing you to put enoug heatsinks. The issue of pinpoint alphas is caused by lack of hit allocation and is not related to heat at all, it was PGI's sick idea to balance one with the other.

Next, Heat Scale is only partialy random, -X movement points penalty alone may have even greater effect in FPS game than in a board game. The only 2 random penalties are shutdown and ammo explosion. The latter being made more common but with less damage can be a balancing factor as well.

Heat Scale with floating heat cap is easy to implement in MWO, just calculate the amount of heat sinks multiply by the amount of heat that one heat sink dissipate (should be 0.5 according to TT) and then multyiply it by 4. 4 basically MWO real time "turn" as rate of fire on most weapons was increased by 2.5 (10/2.5 = 4). Heat Scale starts from there, so for example:
You're in 100 tonner, have 350 rating engine, 2x Heavy PPCs with Capacitors (20 heat each) and 17 double heat sinks. You fire, generate 40 heat and exceed your heat cap (17 x 0.5 x 4 = 34) by 6, you receive -1 movement penalty which means your engine acts as if it was 250 rated and you move just as slow. There is also "aim" penalty but you need to come up with mechanic that replaces hit allocation first.

Edited by kapusta11, 11 January 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[JadeTimberwolf]

Personally I believe that the best way to deal with the issue of too much heat in MWO compared to TTBT would be simply to get rid of ghost heat. No need elaborate coding to bring in all of the heat effects as what I can tell the 100% heat point is TTBT's first heat shutdown threshold.

[Astarot]

I support this thread in the issue of no real consequences of poor heat management.

The heat system needs a total re haul, as currently, if you max your heat out, you shut down, or you don't if you over ride, and explode the next alpha shot.

Taking movement point hits. (hell I even suggest jump jets take a movement hit as well with high heat load), as well as the possibility of ammo explosion.

That being said, I also feel that Single heat sinks and Double heat sinks should be better balanced as well, because currently, double heat sinks just about out perform single heat sinks in every area, and there very little need to pick singles. How ever this is a topic of another time.

I give this thread my stamp of support that the subject of heat, and heat management needs a full, granted careful, but full overhaul.

[VinJade]

I like the Ammo explosion and movement penalty however the Jump Jets draw their power from the engine that forces super heated air drawn in from the air intake or uses super heated Plasma(depends on who writes the books) thus the Jump jets are not hampered unless a Jet is destroyed or shut down.

Edited by VinJade, 17 January 2015 - 05:20 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Jump Jets already have a heat nerf that affects your Mech. Heat dissipation will stop while using Jets. Thus, if your heat spikes and then you jump, your heat is still spiked high when you land, inhibiting your ability to continue combat and punishing you for your choice to JJ. This reduces the combat effectiveness of JJs and makes them something more of a run away feature than a fighting feature.

Since that penalty is already in place, there is no need to add new ones. If you folks had your way, we'd be crawling around on our hands and knees trying to thwack each other with low-heat hickory sticks instead of striding about the field firing actual weapons at each other.

There are more important issues at hand than rebuilding the heat scale. Let's focus on those first. Besides, if you bothered to watch the Townhall Meeting or read the notes, you would see that PGI has already stated that they will be reviewing Ghost Heat and Mech Quirks to address issues with heat. Frankly, that should be enough to complete the game balance and satisfy everyone, except for the most pure and irrational TT acolytes.

[SethAbercromby]

kapusta11, on 06 January 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

Heat cap is dynamic and depends on the amount of heat you generate and dissipate per certain time interval (10 sec in TT, 4 sec in MWO). So when you generate 40 heat per turn (4 sec in MWO) 20 double heatsinks should be enough to make you heat neutral

Bit late but I think this where the original issue with the heat scale comes from. Despite TT fluff explaining that due to the high energy draw, PPCs and/or Gauss Rifles can not be fired together in any constellation, forcing the pilot to fire them one after another over the 10 seconds each turn emulates, people always pretend like they are fired all at the same time.

Imagine an Awsome with 15 DHS firing 3 PPCs over ten seconds with the offered fixed heat scale of 40.

Fires all three together: 30 heat, possible forced shutdown, possible ammo explosions, waits 10 seconds for cooldown
Fires one, waits 3 Seconds, fires the second, waits another 3 seconds, fires the third: Heat never exceeds 15 points, no issues with overheating.

I don't think the original heat scale can be used well for this, as the penalties start very early and would kick in instantly in MWO with even the simplest weapon fire (a single PPC would make you move 20 kph slower instantly, reagardless of your heatsink performance).

EDIT: Horrendous spelling.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 01 February 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Cyberiad]

I think they should just do what was done in MW4 and/or MW3. After all those games were designed by professional game developers.

[SethAbercromby]

Silicon Life, on 01 February 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

I think they should just do what was done in MW4 and/or MW3. After all those games were designed by professional game developers.

MW4 and probably MW3 played the "Clan weapons superior in every way" card straight, didn't they. How is that good game design?

[Nightmare1]

SethAbercromby, on 01 February 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

MW4 and probably MW3 played the "Clan weapons superior in every way" card straight, didn't they. How is that good game design?

It was fun?

Frankly, the Clans are supposed to be more powerful. I really wish PGI had found a way to balance the Clans and IS without having to nerf the Clans through the floor.

Oh well...

That being said, MW4 was pretty awesome, and a better template for MWO than TT.

[SethAbercromby]

Nightmare1, on 01 February 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

That being said, MW4 was pretty awesome, and a better template for MWO than TT.

I freaking loved the sized hardpoints compared to the TT layout, so yeah 100% agree, but I don't think this game would have worked if clan weapons were to be implemented the way they were in MW4. IS would have gone under the instant the first few mech from the invasion pack surfaced for C-Bills, now we still have people arguing whether or not Claners are OP now and I personally like it that way.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 01 February 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[kosmos1214]

JadeTimberwolf, on 11 January 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Personally I believe that the best way to deal with the issue of too much heat in MWO compared to TTBT would be simply to get rid of ghost heat. No need elaborate coding to bring in all of the heat effects as what I can tell the 100% heat point is TTBT's first heat shutdown threshold.

nononono ghost heat is and all ways has been a good idea with the diferances between an action game and a table top game it does its job and it dose it well and as to useing tts heat penaltys in mwo its not really viable allso do to the diferances between an action game and a table top game

[SykoBozo]

okay. as a long time battle tech junkie, I am concerned that the heat dissipation system is largely crippled due to heat generated vs. heat dissipated. that is a large factor in general. example would be a medium laser generates 4 points of heat and a single double heatsink dissipates .14 heat point per second. If you apply this model to the medium laser recycle time of 3, the math turns out that the heat dissipated is only .42 heat points. In battletech math that means if the weapon is fired again, the heat generated by the weapon will be 7.58. the heat system needs to be totally revamped along with the damage to heat/tonnage ratio. another example of this would be again the medium laser generates 4 points of heat each time its fired, the laser must also deal some heat damage to the target. a laser weapon damages by melting a hole q.e.d het damage. the only energy weapon that does kinetic damage is the ppc. The formula can be applied to all weapons in the game including clan tech. its the same formula that was used when building mechs for the original table top game.

[Nightmare1]

SykoBozo, on 13 March 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

The laser must also deal some heat damage to the target. a laser weapon damages by melting a hole q.e.d het damage. the only energy weapon that does kinetic damage is the ppc. The formula can be applied to all weapons in the game including clan tech. its the same formula that was used when building mechs for the original table top game.

That would open the door for reflective and reactive armors like we had in MW4: Mercs. I really miss those, as well as the heat effect that energy weapons had on enemy Mechs.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Updated OP.

[Idealsuspect]

Sorry but mechwarrior PC games never were true mech simulations also it can't be a true translation from Battletech boardgame into PC game....

Heat management is good as it is now PGI haven't ressources for totally change this and balance it after ...

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Idealsuspect, on 28 July 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

Sorry but mechwarrior PC games never were true mech simulations also it can't be a true translation from Battletech boardgame into PC game....

Heat management is good as it is now PGI haven't ressources for totally change this and balance it after ...

It can get better, and actually having Heat Effects on Capacity needs to be explored and implemented.

For example, 20 DHS gives up to 76.8 Capacity with the only penalties above that value right now. If we incorporate Heat Effects then that is lowered to 54 Heat for the first significant concern from having high Heat.

If you are unaware the last town hall had a mention of rebalancing efforts that the devs will being conducting in the near future, and I personally hope that the Heat System can get a good long look to see some improvements that can actually work to MWO's benefit.

[Nightmare1]

Idealsuspect, on 28 July 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

Sorry but mechwarrior PC games never were true mech simulations also it can't be a true translation from Battletech boardgame into PC game....

Heat management is good as it is now PGI haven't ressources for totally change this and balance it after ...

I agree with this completely.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Idealsuspect, on 28 July 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

Sorry but mechwarrior PC games never were true mech simulations also it can't be a true translation from Battletech boardgame into PC game....

Heat management is good as it is now PGI haven't ressources for totally change this and balance it after ...

The aim is to improve the translations.

What we see in MWO is okay for the rather casual observer actually (if that).