402 replies to this topic

[DeathlyEyes]

A lot of this would be mitigated by the existence of a battle value system such as the one described in this post
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3490311

[Galenit]

Get on Comstar, fill your ranks, l2p, suck it, make friends, ...
Will we find one of the now moaners who has posted something like that in the past in any of the premade/pug topics?

Most small groups were against a pure-pug queue,
most soloplayers wanted a pure-pug queue,
pgi find another solution,
now eat what you ordered.

[arghmace]

First things first, the new MM finds matches real quick, great job there! Another big thing is that the parameters can now be modified on the fly without server downtimes and patches, it's a huge thing really.

As for groups of 2-4 being allowed to choose pug queue, it would make it very hard for groups of 8-10 to find matches, so I don't believe this can be done.

If indeed this is deemed to be a big problem, two solutions come to mind:

1) Make a separate queue for 12 mans. This way the most coordinated and stompy enemy you could get would be 10+2.

2) Make it so that teams must have +-1 groups compared to each others. So if the other is 12 man, the other must consist of no more than 2 groups. 10+2, 6+6, 8+4 etc, but no 6x2 folly. If the other team has 3 groups, the other must consist of 2, 3 or 4 groups. I believe this might work very well, actually.

Edited by arghmace, 03 July 2014 - 12:48 AM.

[William Knight]

Great Job PGI, played in four, six and ten man games and got the level of play I used to see in the tournaments (for the most part), ELP got to shake loose the cobwebs against mix of Franken units and full 12 mans and we had a blast doing so!

Well done!

[krispehkreem]

This is the problem right now, I am experiencing it too.

So with the old system, I would drop with 2-3 friends max. Most of the time, it was just me and one friend. So even if we dropped as 4, we would obviously drop as only 1 lance. That seemed fine and balanced to me.

We would drop as a lance, be put against maybe one other premade lance with some PUG's and everything would be right as rain: Matches were even. Fights were close and tense. The amount of Clan 'Mechs compared to IS 'Mechs was even. Everything was running fine and dandy, Mechwarrior Online had not been this fun in a while.

Then today, everything changes.

Me and some mates decide we are gonna drop as a lance so we log in and are go for launch. (One of my Lance-mates is fresh, first day in, but that's beside the point here.) We drop to see that we are matched against 12 CGB team members. We have my lowly lance with me as the most experienced running nothing more than walking tissue paper. A.K.A. The SPD-5K.

Everything kicks off, within three minuets, the game is over.

Really, three minuets.

Here's the problem:
YOUR GROUP: Hi there matchmaker! We'd like to join a fair match if that's all cool
MATCHMAKER: Oh yea, about that. I just got patched so I'm afraid I'm gonna have to put you in a queue with the 12 man groups, soz. :/
YOUR GROUP: Umm, okay? I mean there is a chance we will get evenly matched PUG's and like 1 or 2 organized lances, right?
MATCHMAKER: OHH YEAAA! Definitely man, just be prepared to face and organized team aight?

The matchmaker was fine before. The new matchmaker had promises but honestly, PGI dropped the ball. I understand that it LOOKS FOR OTHER 12 MANS FIRST but that isn't a 100% chance. If it doesn't find them a game, they go against us.

What the hell PGI? How is rag-tag, go-get-em' team supposed to play and even have fun (Let alone play competitively, PFFT!) against CLAN GREY BEAR? You load in and the game is over. Might as well run out of bounds. I don't mean to sound like a spoil sport but there is really no chance.

Getting stomped is no fun. Stomping entire teams, at least IMO, isn't fun either. Intense, co-operative and close game play is where the fun is at, PGI. This new matchmaker almost completely prevents this from happening.

Make a separate queue for 12 mans, one for groups of at least 2-4 and maybe one for solo players. That's my suggestion. It's logical: Queue as a lance, get matched against a team with one or two organized lances. Evenly matched = fun. 12 mans face 12 mans. Evenly matched = fun.

Getting shitstompped isn't fun. Today's patch stopped you from earning another, possibly dedicated player, PGI. I will be making it 2 lost players if I don't see at least some sort of fix for this atrocity.

[maxmarechal]

yesterday i played 12-man with my team
2 other groups of our members were going 4-man
we dropped against both groups+pugs or 2-4man groups almost three times
i'm sure it was fun as our opponents knew our tactics thanks to our boys facing us but we still won as a 12-man group properly coordinated easily wins against 3x4-man groups all trying to agree on where to go first....
a fix would be nice...

as for 2-10 groups ...nice job PGI

[arghmace]

krispehkreem, on 03 July 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

The matchmaker was fine before.

Yeah, it was fine - except for the fact that you couldn't make groups of 5-10 people, which was a huge bummer for many people. If we make it so that 2-4 groups can opt to drop in pugs (so that THEY can be the coordinated ones and stomp over opposition, right?) those 5-10 groups wouldn't find matches.

Check my previous post for some reasonable compromise solutions:
http://mwomercs.com/...00#entry3527500

Edited by arghmace, 03 July 2014 - 01:34 AM.

[SRC472]

Something is really wrong with that matchmaker. Had 4 drops as a pug and it was 4 stompedes with 12vs0 or 12vs1 and then i played in a group of 8 and steamrolled the enemy 12vs0. That way gaming is no fun. I support group size above 2-4 but only if you are dropped against equal enemies.

[DAEDALOS513]

SoHxPaladin, on 02 July 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

IF THE GAME IS NOT FUN WHY WERE YOU PLAYING TO BEGIN WITH? why are you here showing you care about where the game is, when you weren't having fun? God forbid you have to fight an organized group! sync drops happened before, continue to happen, and now they have the option to not hide it, but say "come at me bro." You can surely leave, PGI is still making money, as a friend of mine saw them putting in that sweet new hot tube and new office equipment and so on, your small sums you have spent *yes they are small compared to what the mass of people are spending/have spent* won't impact them, haven't impacted them. if they had been impacted, they went and found the reason and got rid of it, like firing devs that were hampering progress or not working with the team to get the players engaged. go group with your buddies, you might get a twelve, chalk that fight up for whatever ends up happening like you do that awful roflstomp in the normal drops before the patch and watch out for the tears, they might drown you

He's saying the games has NOW become 'not fun' with the new MM, not that it never WAS fun...

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 July 2014 - 04:48 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Jonathan Paine, on 02 July 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

8 pages in, complete lack of screen shots.

STOP POSTING YOUR WHINING ALREADY!

You contribute nothing.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 July 2014 - 05:31 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Jonathan Paine, on 02 July 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

So far this matchmaker:
FINDS MATCHES!
Creates team with similar weight/class mechs
Makes playing solo better than it ever was

So what if you get stomped every now and then by a 12 man? Elo will sort that out!

You're obviously not reading the posts. There are countless things wrong with mixing dedicated, hard-core 12-man groups and smaller, casual 2-4 players groups.

No respectable 12-man wants to go against pugs (cuz let's face it, a 2-3 man group might as well be pugging), and no small-groupers want to get stomped what looks like to be 3 or 4 games out of every 10.

I've never wanted to stop playing a game like this before. It is seriously broken and lacks any common sense.

[Jedan]

I can see the points from both sides on this one. Though to be honest I don't think 2-4 man groups were ever that big of an issue in PUG matches, sure you may have 4 complimentary mechs in a lance but typically that alone doesn't pose too much of a threat. 12 man teams on the other hand have a lot more coordination.

There is a bit of an issue right now in that 2-4 man groups get matched against 12 man's. Honestly the MM system should look at the number and size of groups and make teams that are equal in that regards. IE a 2/2/2/2/2/2 goes up against another, a 4/4/4 goes up against another 4/4/4/4 and so on.

My biggest complaint isn't that I can't roll around stomping PUGs anymore (because my small 2 man never did that in the first place) but that I have a group of co-workers that I play with (2-3) and now getting paired against 12-mans has ruined the fun of dropping together. Before we had a decent chance against PUGs because while coordinated, 2 mechs can easily be brought down.

I'm trying to get one of my other friends in to MWO and I finally got him to play last night, we dropped in a 3 man group and ended up getting 4 matches back to back against 12 mans, needless to say after that he doesn't want to play again.

***Note: I'm not saying we should revert to the old system where groups roflstomp PUGs but a better solution than what is currently there needs to be implemented.

[DAEDALOS513]

AgroAntirrhopus, on 02 July 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

I have to say, my experience playing tonight with my husband in a humble little two man was not enjoyable. I don't like going up against these giant groups and getting stomped.

We lost plenty of times in the PUG queue, but not like this. This felt like just being fodder.

I sincerely hope that PGI goes back and puts small 2 man groups back into the pug queue.

Three four man groups do not fair any better against a 12man, 10man or even 8man group. They just don't.

Modo44, on 02 July 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

That was the point of the matchmaker rewrite. Multiple groups vs a grup and solo players used to happen on a regular basis before.


My point stands. Your grammar is ****.

Easy there grammar police with your little red herring, don't avoid the point I'm making. The matchmaker isn't fixed it's just broken in a different way now..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 July 2014 - 05:38 AM.

[Opus]

we Lone wolfs support group, ran 7 matches last night with 8 to 10 man groupings our partners that were thrown in with us were pugs on solo queue, we asked they stayed close, and worked as best they could with us but 5 of those matches were against 12 man units..

this patch had so many good points, only to be flawed in the end....

[Wolf Clearwater]

It seems that most of the people raging against the complaints can be summed up as:

"But its not fair!"
*stomps feet*
"12 man teams need to roflstomp PUGS!"

Jedan, on 03 July 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

There is a bit of an issue right now in that 2-4 man groups get matched against 12 man's. Honestly the MM system should look at the number and size of groups and make teams that are equal in that regards. IE a 2/2/2/2/2/2 goes up against another, a 4/4/4 goes up against another 4/4/4/4 and so on.

Not a bad idea. I doubt there are enough groups on of the same size to make it really work though..

12 mans v. 12 man only
5-10 groups vs multiple groups only
2-4 in either queue

And really, simply making the in-game comm system work would make none of this matter.

Edited by Wolf87535, 03 July 2014 - 05:14 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

arghmace, on 03 July 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:

..two solutions come to mind:

1) Make a separate queue for 12 mans. This way the most coordinated and stompy enemy you could get would be 10+2.

2) Make it so that teams must have +-1 groups compared to each others. So if the other is 12 man, the other must consist of no more than 2 groups. 10+2, 6+6, 8+4 etc, but no 6x2 folly. If the other team has 3 groups, the other must consist of 2, 3 or 4 groups. I believe this might work very well, actually.

ATTENTION PGI:

Thank you Arghmace, youre suggestion makes sense! You not only have to match based on skill and tonnage, but you have to match games based on HOW MANY MINDS ARE AT WORK ON EACH TEAM. By this I mean, if there is one 12man on one team, consider that ONE MIND working as a hive. If there are four groups on one team, consider that FOUR MINDS.

This is where the unbalance occurs. You just can't rely on random players to be coordinated like a 12man, 10man or even 8man team. Because let's face it, we have a hard enough time finding someone to lead and come up with a plan at the beginning of each game most of the time. When we finally do overcome this, the other larger, 'one-minded' team is in position and ready to STOMP.

HERE IS THE SOLUTION: +/-1 GROUP

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 July 2014 - 05:20 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

krispehkreem, on 03 July 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

...Everything kicks off, within three minuets, the game is over.

Really, three minuets.

Here's the problem:
YOUR GROUP: Hi there matchmaker! We'd like to join a fair match if that's all cool
MATCHMAKER: Oh yea, about that. I just got patched so I'm afraid I'm gonna have to put you in a queue with the 12 man groups, soz. :/
YOUR GROUP: Umm, okay? I mean there is a chance we will get evenly matched PUG's and like 1 or 2 organized lances, right?
MATCHMAKER: OHH YEAAA! Definitely man, just be prepared to face and organized team aight?

Getting stomped is no fun. Stomping entire teams, at least IMO, isn't fun either. Intense, co-operative and close game play is where the fun is at, PGI. This new matchmaker almost completely prevents this from happening.

PGI. I will be making it 2 lost players if I don't see at least some sort of fix for this atrocity.

Let's not forget our new players! I thought the new patch was supposed to END being stomped?!? Why is this so hard to comprehend PGI? The game is NOT FUN ANYMORE unless you are in LARGE GROUPS. You need a constant influx of new players to survive, you must show them a good time during their first 10-20 games or they will NOT come back. You can't expect them to be able to group up in 6-12 man groups as newbs. I am hesitant to tell anyone about the game now as I know they will find it frustratingly hard (more so than before because lets' face it, this game has a pretty high learning-curve).

NEW PLAYERS ARE YOUR LIFE-BLOOD! Never forget this.

..and yes, Krispekreem, you are right, stomping a team into oblivion within 3 minutes is NOT fun either.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 July 2014 - 05:40 AM.

[Dan Nashe]

Modo44, on 02 July 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Fairer than multiple premades stompin' on solo players. Carry harder.

There's a difference between three 4 mans, and a couple pairs of two.
Regardless, 2 mans, and I would suggest even 3 mans belong solely in the PuG queue, 1 group per team.

Part of the issue is matchmaker, to find matches quickly with balanced weight classes it will probably tejd to lump in lots of smaller groups versus bigger groups consistently.

You really need the primary group on each team within 2.
e.g., 12 v 10 plus 2. Putting 2s in group queue is fine if they are the only 2. Awful if its 6 of them.
Of course, for perfect weight class matching, you need exactly one of 14 or so combinations in the two man?

Or 6 v 8 with smaller groups filling in.

Either way, I would probably build a matchmaker to treat pairs like solos. Small advantage in pairs, but only small.
Solos can duplicate by folowing one guy around and helping him.

Edited by DanNashe, 03 July 2014 - 05:36 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

arghmace, on 03 July 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

Yeah, it was fine - except for the fact that you couldn't make groups of 5-10 people, which was a huge bummer for many people. If we make it so that 2-4 groups can opt to drop in pugs (so that THEY can be the coordinated ones and stomp over opposition, right?) those 5-10 groups wouldn't find matches.

Check my previous post for some reasonable compromise solutions:
http://mwomercs.com/...00#entry3527500

Than this game is NOT ready for 5-10 man groups. Simple..

[Wispsy]

So what I got from the first few pages of this thread...

"if you have 11 friends that play this game who will accept a group invite, you are one of the most dedicated and skilled pilots around"

"it is fine to drop in a 4man and play against only solo players but if you get pulled into a game with 10+2v12man or 8+2+2v12man it is completely unacceptable and unfair due to the superior co-ordination they can theoretically achieve"

"it is impossible to beat a 12man without another 12man" (well **** me...there are plenty of 12mans out there I would happily take on with literally just a 4man and no other teammates....not even hyperbole...yesterday I was in a 3man and we completely rolled a 10man...)

"if you drop in a 12man you will only get placed against 2+2+2+2+2+2 and it is not a rare occurance that mm tries to stop and use only as a last resort or anything"

"there were people in the 12man queue previously" (well I can tell you now keeping a fixed 12 is a lot of hard work, not everybody can turn around and go "well sure I can dedicate 4 hours of my time to searching in the hopes we might get a game every time I wish to play with more then 3 of my friends"

"government numbers of unemployment are correct and to be trusted, not just **** like the amount of people on benefits to the total amount of estimated population, whilst putting in random unpaid full time work schemes to convince people to stop claiming as earning less then £1 is actually not worth it, unless of course you feel the need to eat, or perhaps live in a building...without any way for the majority of people to question it until lengthy court processes could no longer be delayed or denied as people are forced out of education and training to fulfill random full time cleaning jobs for no money...whilst not keeping this information apparent to anybody who does not look fairly deeply into such things or is directly affected by it" (ok...)

All of this is wrong.

I mean personally...the amount of 4mans who said "deal with it, play better, why should I not be allowed to play with my friends" to solo players being dropped against 3x4mans...to now say "I want to group with friends but only play against solo players and not risk fighting other or bigger groups" is a bit....yeah.....

Edited by Wispsy, 03 July 2014 - 05:55 AM.