402 replies to this topic

[DAEDALOS513]

Wispsy, on 03 July 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

"government numbers of unemployment are correct and to be trusted,

Oh man you just lost any credibility you might have had.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 July 2014 - 05:49 AM.

[Wispsy]

DAEDALOS513, on 03 July 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

Oh man you just lost any credibility you might have had.

So you think my facts were incorrect and I should not question that assumption?

[DAEDALOS513]

Wispsy, on 03 July 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

So you think my facts were incorrect and I should not question that assumption?

Bottom line.. 2-3 man groups might as well be pugs. They are not the same threat as a 8 to 12 man group. THEY SHOULD NOT BE MIXED. How can you deny this?

[Wispsy]

DAEDALOS513, on 03 July 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Bottom line.. 2-3 man groups might as well be pugs. They are not the same threat as a 8 to 12 man group. THEY SHOULD NOT BE MIXED. How can you deny this?

If you deny 2-3 man groups from the group queue then it will also deny 9-10 man groups, basically not fixing the problem at all that I would imagine this is trying to fix...that the gap between getting 4 people and a stable 12 people is large and as people do not log on and off at set times it means picking between your friends if you have 4 online, having no real way to get the extras you need to make and keep 12.

Also, 2-3 man groups have a considerable and significant advantage over a game of pure solo players if they choose to use it. The point you are trying to make, is the increased communication that a large group has is an unfair advantage against smaller/more groups. Yet you wish to keep your unfair increased communication that your small group has over solo players. The mm does not try and put 2/2/2/2/2/2 v 12...it tries to put 12v12 then 12v10+2 then 12v9+3 then 12v8+4/8+2+2 then 12v7+5 then 12v6+6/7+3+2 as it slowly goes down. I do not see this as an issue. Being in a group of larger people does not automatically make you any good at this game. As I said I was in a 3man and we dominated a 10man...Now that groups are open it is not only dedicated people who have the time to spend waiting around for 1 more to come on or leave group, anybody can make a big group. Anybody can play with up to 11 of their friends whenever they like. If they are in a dropship on comstar na or something and other people join the channel, it will just turn into a bigger group, they will probably not even be talking about the match at that point in my experience, they will lose all the time to combinations of smaller groups...

Edited by Wispsy, 03 July 2014 - 06:19 AM.

[Dan Nashe]

I still say the best solution is:
1 group per side. Groups must be within 2 players. E.g., matchmaker has a team of 8. It pairs it against a team of 6-10 players.
This allows 5-11 man groups.
Fill in the rest (after groups are matched up) with solos (and even groups of 2, if there aren't enough solos).

12 mans as a separate queue.

I think the fundamental miscalculation is that it's less fun to be a solo paired with an 8 man versus a 10 man paired with 2 pugs than it is to be one of 3 4 mans fighting a 12. This is wrong. Throw a pug into an 11 v 11, pug won't actually be the first to die unless they try to lead the group. :-P. May even usually be one of the last.

The flaw in my plan is that there may be far too many groups queueing.
Ergo, you treat pairs as solos and only have starting "kernels" of 3-11 on a team.

Edited by DanNashe, 03 July 2014 - 06:26 AM.

[Wispsy]

DanNashe, on 03 July 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

I still say the best solution is:
1 group per side. Groups must be within 2 players. E.g., matchmaker has a team of 8. It pairs it against a team of 6-10 players.
This allows 5-11 man groups.
Fill in the rest (after groups are matched up) with solos (and even groups of 2, if there aren't enough solos).

12 mans as a separate queue.

I think the fundamental miscalculation is that it's less fun to be a solo paired with an 8 man versus a 10 man paired with 2 pugs than it is to be one of 3 4 mans fighting a 12. This is wrong. Throw a pug into an 11 v 11, pug won't actually be the first to die unless they try to lead the group. :-P. May even usually be one of the last.

But you realize...if they put it against a 10man...that 10man is going to have a group of 2 with it...

Or maybe I read that wrong...you want to make all fillers solo players??? I thought the idea was to try and remove as many groups from solo queue as possible...so casuals feel like they can influence the match more, regardless of whether or not that is actually true.

One other thing...the difference between a 10man and a 12man is not as large as you seem to think and your pugs might not always be terrible...

Edited by Wispsy, 03 July 2014 - 06:34 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Wispsy, on 03 July 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Or maybe I read that wrong...you want to make all fillers solo players??? I thought the idea was to try and remove as many groups from solo queue as possible...so casuals feel like they can influence the match more, regardless of whether or not that is actually true.

Wispy can you analyze this comment made earlier and let us know what you think:

Thank you Arghmace, youre suggestion makes sense! You not only have to match based on skill and tonnage, but you have to match games based on HOW MANY MINDS ARE AT WORK ON EACH TEAM. By this I mean, if there is one 12man on one team, consider that ONE MIND working as a hive. If there are four groups on one team, consider that FOUR MINDS.

This is where the unbalance occurs. You just can't rely on random players to be coordinated like a 12man, 10man or even 8man team. Because let's face it, we have a hard enough time finding someone to lead and come up with a plan at the beginning of each game most of the time. When we finally do overcome this, the other larger, 'one-minded' team is in position and ready to STOMP.

HERE IS THE SOLUTION: +/-1 GROUP difference between teams

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 July 2014 - 06:35 AM.

[SoHxPaladin]

Wraith0177, on 02 July 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

I think the point is at this stage that with this change, it's not fun for us anymore.

then it hasn't been fun to this point at all because of how bad the MM has been, and continues to be, according to your whinning! 6, 2 man drops last night after the 12man drops that were not total domination, as it should be, and not a single time did we get dropped into a group of 10 or larger to fight against...maybe they weren't running then, but i don't see why you are complaining because of a few drops you had out of your night. if a few drops make this game not fun for you, then get over yourself, you will live, suck less cry more little one.

Edited by SoHxPaladin, 03 July 2014 - 06:40 AM.

[Cerlin]

OP means "I was in a group of two against a 12 man with other groups." This is intended not a bug, just the OP cant read patch notes. Welcome to the new age. Type with your other premades and coordinate. You can win, I did last night with my 2 man.

Edit: another terrible title. You meant to say "My friends and I and other premades vs a 12 man" None of you are pugs bro. You are all premades, welcome to how the solo players felt all this time.

Edited by Cerlin, 03 July 2014 - 06:51 AM.

[Sudden]

to all those whiners, mm is working great. carry harder. and stop moaning over every thing.

[Dan Nashe]

Wispsy, on 03 July 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

But you realize...if they put it against a 10man...that 10man is going to have a group of 2 with it...

Or maybe I read that wrong...you want to make all fillers solo players??? I thought the idea was to try and remove as many groups from solo queue as possible...so casuals feel like they can influence the match more, regardless of whether or not that is actually true.

One other thing...the difference between a 10man and a 12man is not as large as you seem to think and your pugs might not always be terrible...

I guess the reason I separate 12s is that I play 12s differently from 10s with different expectations. I expect players to bring only mastered top tier (or high tier) mechs with 2 strikes to 12s. I treat 12s like rated play.
1-10s are bring whatever you want.

I am not strongly opposed to pairing 12 s v 10s, I just like being able to toggle a switch saying "I'm playing to win now" since your elo can't distinguish a jump sniper from a fun build in a brand new chassis.

Personally I think a solo is more likely to influence a close 10 v 9 with filler by being smart and good than they are to affect the cat herd of 12 pugs :-).

When dropping solo, I'd love to be a solo in an 10 plus 1 plus 1 v 10 plus 1 plus 1.
Now, if you could only invite friends from the end of match scoreboard...

So yes, I would put one group of 3-11 (or 12) on each side.
make the two groups within 2 players of each other (e.g. 9 and 7).
Fill in the teams with solos (and pairs).

I suggest treating pairs like solos both because of how they play, and because there aren't enough solos to fill 2 v 2 plus solos matches.

Edited by DanNashe, 03 July 2014 - 06:59 AM.

[Wispsy]

DAEDALOS513, on 03 July 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

HERE IS THE SOLUTION: +/-1 GROUP difference between teams

I have no problems, although if Elo was taken into account and artificially increased to take into account the number of people in a group and the average difference that makes then most of the time 3x4mans would have no problems fighting evenly with a 12man.

[Wispsy]

DanNashe, on 03 July 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

I guess the reason I separate 12s is that I play 12s differently from 10s with different expectations. I expect players to bring only mastered top tier (or high tier) mechs with 2 strikes to 12s. I treat 12s like rated play.
1-10s are bring whatever you want.

I suggest treating pairs like solos both because of how they play, and because there aren't enough solos to fill 2 v 2 plus solos matches.

Ah but you need to remember that is how you play. Plenty of times I have been in 2/3 man groups and have been playing very seriously with a true desire to win and the group skills to accomplish it. Also I have been in many a 12man that was just a group of friends messing about with random and often not very good builds and mechs. Basing matchmaker on your personal opinion of how serious people should be in different group sizes seems a tad short sighted to me. There are all kinds of people playing, with all kinds of mentalities.

Edited by Wispsy, 03 July 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Dan Nashe]

Wispsy, on 03 July 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

Ah but you need to remember that is how you play. Plenty of times I have been in 2/3 man groups and have been playing very seriously with a true desire to win and the group skills to accomplish it. Also I have been in many a 12man that was just a group of friends messing about with random and often not very good builds and mechs. Basing matchmaker on your personal opinion of how serious people should be in different group sizes seems a tad short sighted to me. There are all kinds of people playing, with all kinds of mentalities.

Yeah, now that there are private matches, where the competition actually happens, there's no great reason to try to treat 12s as special. It's just an old habit :-).

Edited by DanNashe, 03 July 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Cerlin, on 03 July 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

OP means "I was in a group of two against a 12 man with other groups." This is intended not a bug, just the OP cant read patch notes. Welcome to the new age. Type with your other premades and coordinate. You can win, I did last night with my 2 man.

Edit: another terrible title. You meant to say "My friends and I and other premades vs a 12 man" None of you are pugs bro. You are all premades, welcome to how the solo players felt all this time.

We're way beyond having figured out it's working as intended, as you may have surmised 190 messages into the topic.. we're working on a solutions now.. but thanks for contributing

It's one thing to go against a premade of 2 to 4, a whole other thing to go against a premade of 12, 10, or even 8! I'm really tired of repeating myself so I'll just quote myself:

You're obviously not reading the posts. There are countless things wrong with mixing dedicated, hard-core 12-man groups and smaller, casual 2-4 players groups (2-4 player groups, for all intents and purposes, MIGHT AS WELL BE PUGS).

No respectable 12-man wants to go against pugs (cuz let's face it, a 2-3 man group might as well be pugging), and no small-groupers want to get stomped what looks like to be 3 or 4 games out of every 10.

Sudden, on 03 July 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

to all those whiners, mm is working great. carry harder. and stop moaning over every thing.

Stop calling it whining when you don't agree with an opinion. That is infantile and reveals alot about your personality.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 July 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

DanNashe, on 03 July 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

I guess the reason I separate 12s is that I play 12s differently from 10s with different expectations. I expect players to bring only mastered top tier (or high tier) mechs with 2 strikes to 12s. I treat 12s like rated play.
1-10s are bring whatever you want.

I am not strongly opposed to pairing 12 s v 10s, I just like being able to toggle a switch saying "I'm playing to win now" since your elo can't distinguish a jump sniper from a fun build in a brand new chassis.

Personally I think a solo is more likely to influence a close 10 v 9 with filler by being smart and good than they are to affect the cat herd of 12 pugs :-).

When dropping solo, I'd love to be a solo in an 10 plus 1 plus 1 v 10 plus 1 plus 1.
Now, if you could only invite friends from the end of match scoreboard...

So yes, I would put one group of 3-11 (or 12) on each side.
make the two groups within 2 players of each other (e.g. 9 and 7).
Fill in the teams with solos (and pairs).

I suggest treating pairs like solos both because of how they play, and because there aren't enough solos to fill 2 v 2 plus solos matches.

You make so much logical sense they should call you Mr Spock.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 July 2014 - 07:40 AM.

[Galenit]

DAEDALOS513, on 03 July 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Stop calling it whining when you don't agree with an opinion. That is infantile and reveals alot about your personality.

You are here for a year now.
Dont remember all the premade/pug topics?

Maybe do a search in the forum and archive and you will know why a lot of people are laughing and calling it cry and whine.

In germany we say: Wie es in den Wald ruf schallt es heraus.
Means: As you shout in the woods, it calls from it back.

[DAEDALOS513]

Wispsy, on 03 July 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

I have no problems, although if Elo was taken into account and artificially increased to take into account the number of people in a group and the average difference that makes then most of the time 3x4mans would have no problems fighting evenly with a 12man.

NO NO NO. You can't have 3 separate groups (no matter the skill level) fighting against one 'hive-minded' team loaded with arty/air strikes, working under one leader and most likely using teamspeak. Do you play this game at all!??

Again, I question your credibility...

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 03 July 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[Wispsy]

DAEDALOS513, on 03 July 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

You make so much logical sense they should call you Mr Spock.

Maybe if you read my reply you will realize it is not actually logic...there is no objectivity to it...it is simply and only his own preferences in style of play whilst grouping.

[Almeras]

I wrote a big post but whats the point the MM was never fair it had shaky foundations since ELO was never intended to be used an aggregated total. Neither has PGI reset ELO and given how its almost impossible to loose ELO its data is woefully out of date. Add to that is can be easily gamed its worthless.

Most of the guys I know have given up on it and prefer private lobbies where common sense can be used as to what makes a fair match.

But at some point you need to run the MM's "wheel O' misery" to loss grind XP for new mechs.