372 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

Zaggeron, on 02 July 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

You need to understand that they can't make it up to the group to decide whether to go solo or group queue. What percentage of 2-4 mans would choose the group queue? They need those groups to fill in the spots of the other groups. If you've got a 7 man group, what are the chances of the MM finding a 5 man group at your Elo at that very moment? The changes are much better if it can also try and match you with a 3 man + 2 man.

I get that, Zaggeron. It's a theoretical argument (like a rhetorical question).

That said, we really have no idea how many small groups would choose the group queue. But I think that information would be useful to know, and we cannot know it with the current matchmaker setup.

PGI claims that they tried to set up a max of 1 group per team along with their previous attempts at 4x3. I'm wondering why they couldn't separate that from 4x3 because I'd be surprised if it hadn't solved most of the alleged balance problems that we see.

1 group per team. Attempt to match group size and group average Elo rating. Then fill in with solos, attempting to match average solo rating as well. As a last consideration, try to keep tonnage roughly equal as well.

Forget 4x3... it's a kludge that only serves to force players into Mechs that they don't really want to play.

[MischiefSC]

4x3 is phenomenal and is why every match is no longer 6-8 twolves, 2 dire wolves and a couple scrubs. I'd junk everything else in the patch to save that.

4x3 has added more team makeup diversity than I've ever seen in the game.

[Rippthrough]

To be honest, waiting times for group matches have been blazing fast tonight compared to usual, I actually had a lot more fun in a few drops tonight with a varying size group of guys than I have for a long, long time.

[Triordinant]

I'm amused that some of the smaller groups that used to prey on PUGs using coordinated 'mech choices, Teamspeak and at least a training session together every other week are crying bloody murder now that they have to fight 12-man teams that train three times a week. Now they know how the solo PUGs felt as they were fed to the dogs, only this time their dog teams are being fed to professional wolf packs.

Edited by Triordinant, 02 July 2014 - 07:03 PM.

[Dracol]

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Rippthrough, on 02 July 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

To be honest, waiting times for group matches have been blazing fast tonight compared to usual, I actually had a lot more fun in a few drops tonight with a varying size group of guys than I have for a long, long time.

My experience has been the same. Very close matches all of em. Even the one 12-0 game was a hard fought battle with all of us praying not to die. Large variety of builds as well. ECM was being used effectively by opponents and being able to id the main force was crucial in all battles.

[Firemage]

Triordinant, on 02 July 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

I'm amused that some of the smaller groups that used to prey on PUGs using coordinated 'mech choices, Teamspeak and at least a training session together every other week are crying bloody murder now that they have to fight 12-man teams that train three times a week. Now they know how the solo PUGs felt as they were fed to the dogs, only this time their dog teams are being fed to professional wolf packs.

I drop with 2-3 friends, we don't "train" we're here to play and have fun, 4 people when the rest of your team seems to be stacked with scrubs doesn't change much. Have the 4 of us wrecked a lance or 2 and made pushes to lead our team to victory? Sure, but we still lost here and there and we can only help our team so much. When faced with a huge 10 man team of people our little 4 man group gets singled out and focused down when we show a semblance of tactics. Where is the fun of playing a game with one's friends if we have to play in the solo queue to not be ground into a fine paste?As "OP" as team work can be a bunch of small 2-4 man groups have little chance vs 8-10 organized players.

[Alexander Steel]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 July 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

This is why PGI stopped doing groups 5-10 in the first place... but the community hated that so now we have this again. I don't understand what you people want.

It's almost as if "The Community" is made up of a bunch of people who aren't part of a hive mind and different people have different opinions on what they want.

Like how people go into a place to eat and not everybody orders the exact same thing.

[MischiefSC]

Firemage, on 02 July 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

I drop with 2-3 friends, we don't "train" we're here to play and have fun, 4 people when the rest of your team seems to be stacked with scrubs doesn't change much. Have the 4 of us wrecked a lance or 2 and made pushes to lead our team to victory? Sure, but we still lost here and there and we can only help our team so much. When faced with a huge 10 man team of people our little 4 man group gets singled out and focused down when we show a semblance of tactics. Where is the fun of playing a game with one's friends if we have to play in the solo queue to not be ground into a fine paste?As "OP" as team work can be a bunch of small 2-4 man groups have little chance vs 8-10 organized players.

You mean like when organized 4mans or synced 8mans play in pugs? Exactly like that?

You know, I know exactly how that feels. You're in a match against a team of people with some better coordination tools and an advantage over you, it's hard to effectively pull your weight.

So, you want to opt out of playing against them..... hmmm. That's come up before.

[Lomak]

How often is it going to happen that you drop against a full 12 man premade....every 5. or every 10. game. So this is not happening quite often....

Edited by Lomak, 02 July 2014 - 07:54 PM.

[Perilthecat]

I, ladies and gentlemen, am a PUG. Maligned by many as a member of the Under Hive. A rag tag collection which makes up the vast majority of the player base by a large margin, I might add.

I give my sincerest condolences to those casual, small groups who are now forced into the big leagues. You may be a "group" but perhaps you, like many, have a less than stratospheric ELO. Any 12-person team you encounter is likely to outclass you in terms of... shall we say "game performance."

It is indeed not entirely fair, but unfortunately it is the best you are like to get until the true solution to this problem comes to pass:


A significantly expanded player base.


This is the only true equalizer. Enough players to fill the matchmaker's hoppers. I am very much anticipating playing the new patch, but alas I am out of town. I know that when I return to my lush fields of PUG "derp" (as one poster calls it) that I will rejoice! From this moment forth, I shall only ever have to stare down the PPC/Gauss of no more than three Timberwolves and Dragon Slayers at any one time! This is glorious, truly.

The scales have tipped, and now I have one less fear - and yet one still remains...
Because when that 4-person group on the other team spawns on the other side of the map from mine own team's group they are probably still going to buzz-saw the s**t out of us PUGs. Because we can't coordinate well and chances are that we're not really that great at the game.

Things have balanced out a bit. Over the last while we've had good progression. 12-person teams don't have to sync drop anymore, us PUGs get to derp it out (mostly) with ourselves, and coordinated groups have more of a chance at being matched with competitive competition rather than fish in a barrel. Is it fair? No, how is it ever supposed to be fair?

Has the suck been spread around a little more evenly? Yes. And that's good enough for now. So go talk to people about how great the game is instead of always crying that it sucks. Who is going to come play with you if you have that attitude? And if you don't, well, no amount of matchmaker tweaking is going to help when there aren't enough players to maintain critical mass. And then? I guess we'll all end up over on the hawken forums, won't we?

[MischiefSC]

Playing in a 6-8 man right now. have yet to see a 12man. I think we just helped roll a 10+2 though.

Cuz.... NARC and UAV is never NOT funny.

[BoomDog]

Bobzilla, on 02 July 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

You mean to say premades of larger sizes do better?
Funny, I remember people defending premades vs pugs. Also people arguing VoIP won't help balance.

Now we get to hear complaints of groups vs larger groups?

It's the same ****, different smell.

ROFL, I hear you bro. I was thinking the exact same thing. They didn't just 'defend' it, they argued vehemently that there was nothing wrong with this setup.

I also remember them using the argument that there just wasn't enough players to do 8 vs 8 team battles.... so they had to settle for pugstomping. Odd that now there's 12 man teams stomping them, lol.

[Urielliam]

By fixing the queue they broke it. All ive been running into are 12 man.

[MischiefSC]

BoomDog, on 02 July 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

ROFL, I hear you bro. I was thinking the exact same thing. They didn't just 'defend' it, they argued vehemently that there was nothing wrong with this setup.

I also remember them using the argument that there just wasn't enough players to do 8 vs 8 team battles.... so they had to settle for pugstomping. Odd that now there's 12 man teams stomping them, lol.

Funny how suddenly 8-12s are thick as thieves when there's 2-6s to stomp all over. It's cuz REASONS though. Totally not what you'd think.

[Roland]

MischiefSC, on 02 July 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

Funny how suddenly 8-12s are thick as thieves when there's 2-6s to stomp all over. It's cuz REASONS though. Totally not what you'd think.

I can tell you exactly why... It's really complex though, so you may have to work to follow me here.

It's easier to get 8-12 people together now.

Why?

Because when you have 4 guys, and the 5th guy shows up, YOU CAN KEEP PLAYING. Now you have 5 guys... And when the 6th guy shows up? YOU CAN KEEP PLAYING. And so on, and so forth.

That was the critical problem with the 4 man limit.. because it made it almost impossible to actually get 12 guys together, because it was such a huge bitchass to bridge that gap between 5-11 guys.

[TercieI]

Roland, on 02 July 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

I can tell you exactly why... It's really complex though, so you may have to work to follow me here.

It's easier to get 8-12 people together now.

Why?

Because when you have 4 guys, and the 5th guy shows up, YOU CAN KEEP PLAYING. Now you have 5 guys... And when the 6th guy shows up? YOU CAN KEEP PLAYING. And so on, and so forth.

That was the critical problem with the 4 man limit.. because it made it almost impossible to actually get 12 guys together, because it was such a huge bitchass to bridge that gap between 5-11 guys.

Yep. We played 4, then 5, then 6, then 7, then 8, then 7 again...and no headache.

And, FWIW, we came across one 12-man. Our side was 6+4+2. We won a good game. And most of the games were good games, better fought, slower to develop, all around better game play. The one solo game I played was typical derp city. Group queue is already massively more fun.

[MischiefSC]

Group queue with 6-8 right now, really enjoying it. Eager to play solo later too.

3x4 is, by the way, freaking awesome. Much, much better and more diverse matches too> Faster moving as well - half of both teams are smaller, faster mechs.

[Livewyr]

I am enjoying the PUG matches. (For the most part.)

Have not run into many 4man groups, matches are diverse and generally balanced. Not a perfect 3/3/3/3 usually, but the weights are balanced. (Not to mention, my Q times in a medium are pretty shore.)

[Roadkill]

MischiefSC, on 02 July 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

Group queue with 6-8 right now, really enjoying it. Eager to play solo later too.

3x4 is, by the way, freaking awesome. Much, much better and more diverse matches too> Faster moving as well - half of both teams are smaller, faster mechs.

Grouped with 5-6 for several games. Queue times weren't bad, but weren't great either. Don't think we ran into any 12-man teams, but definitely ran into some of the "elite" teams that I normally wouldn't see because they're above my Elo by a fair margin.

4x3 was pretty useless. We had many games with only a single assault on our side. Faced 5 assaults a couple of times. Faced one team that seemed like it was 6 Timber Wolves and 6 Novas, but it probably wasn't... they just steamrolled us so fast that I never saw anything else.

Main difference was that I saw far more Clan Mechs tonight that before. No idea why that would be, but the odd IS Mech was rare enough to stand out.

[Hillslam]

Guess what?

Solos outnumber groups
2 mans outnumber 4s
4s outnumber 8s
etc etc etc

Stop with the "get a bigger group" responses.
Its pedantic, condescending, flippant, cavalier, smug, and disingenuous.

It also muddies the waters for what PGI needs to do if they want to continue to exist as a solvent company.

Edited by Hillslam, 02 July 2014 - 08:41 PM.