Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 04 July 2014 - 04:43 AM
MonkeyCheese, on 04 July 2014 - 01:49 AM, said:
You know that or possibly even 0.03 or 0.035 would prob fix all the small hill and ramp complaints while STILL correctly punishing light mech pilots who go full thrust airborne or suicide of cliffs.
This would be the simple fix to please both sides of the fence without actually reworking the mechanics of the new system.
well, that and fixing the geography issues where clipping makes it assume you are falling.....
I will add other results, including video, and such to this, in spoilers as I collect it, but this is just my initial test, compelled by all the QQ about fall damage (which I got to admit I never even noticed myself at all last night, on any mech......)
Anyhow....
I just took my Locust out in the testing Grounds, Crimson Strait. Mind you a single run is hardly conclusive, but play along with me here.
when I ran along and jumpe doff the 5 meter tall platforms in D5, I took ZERO leg damage, traveling over 150 kph, and ran off them multiple times. Even ran off 3 in a row, max speed. Zero leg damage.
In C4, there is an approximately 10 meter shelf running along the hillside, from the saddle along the upper deck. Dropping off that, did 1% damage to my mech.
Dropping off the parking garage deck, be it at 10 kph I took 2% damage. Running off at 150 kph , I hit 57 ft/s (I should have checked that more frequently, will when the video processes) and took 3% damage.
Minor, overall, though mind you, being confined to the legs, it adds up.
Now, for the money trick.
I run up the side of the E4 hill, as far as I can, and fling myself off into space, aiming for the saddle. Well over 50 meters from the Ground. I take 10% damage, hitting over 70 ft/s fall velocity. And still, after all that, while both legs are internal and have FINALLY suffered critical damage, still have full mobility.
Yes, I took a 20 ton tank on pencil legs, with no JJs, and or Parachutes, and FLUNG it over 50 meters/150+ ft to the ground, and walked away. Technically still ran away.
You will have to forgive me if I think people doth protest too much, but in my admittedly limited testing, I did not damage my legs from running drops, unless, they were over a second, or 10 meters, give or take, (bouncing fall down the side of a hill did damage too, but TBH, there were many points I was airborne over a second doing so.)
Dropping 10 meters did negligible damage, and 20+ meters only a little more. (on the lightest armored mech in the game). Enough to remind me that I can take shortcuts, but they will hurt.
at 50 meters, I take noticeable damage, but still only took critical due to have taken 9% health damage previously to my legs from previous jumps.
In other words, I do something suicidally STUPID, and not only live to tell the tail, but am still running at 150 kph to boot (albeit sans any armor left on my legs).
Sorry, but at least so far, seems to be a lot of compñaing about essentially being given a gentle reminder about physics, and map awareness. You will have to forgive me if I think someone throwing their Locust off of the top of Candy Mountain in Alpine should ned in a rolling fireball of scattered limbs.
*I think I want a Crash Test Dummy paintjob for the little guys, as he is now my testbed for fall damage.
*I just ran off the top of the tallest peaks in Alpine, over 100 meters, and recorded descents speeds of 119 ft/s and 127 ft/s.
The first did 6% damage and reduced my LCT to orange armor. The second reduced me another 6% leaving my legs at Cherry red armor, and my total health at 89% (though a secondary bounce on the second just brought me to intervals and 86% health).
2 Jumps, over 100 meters each, uncontrolled, and I still had leg armor, on the most lightly armored mech in the game.
*I think I want a Crash Test Dummy paintjob for the little guys, as he is now my testbed for fall damage.
Buc paintjob, just the right colors. You're welcome.
Meanwhile, in the past... 1% damage from this incredible fall from a height no longer even possible to reach in MWO without spending over 9 minutes on Alpine just to make the same jump.
Buc paintjob, just the right colors. You're welcome.
Meanwhile, in the past... 1% damage from this incredible fall from a height no longer even possible to reach in MWO without spending over 9 minutes on Alpine just to make the same jump.
Yet now it is the same damage for this so called slope
As this thread http://mwomercs.com/...ng-light-mechs/ clearly shows the wrong weight class is getting harmed when really they should be given incentives to play...
You're in mid stride while jumping from a theoretical standpoint.
"Stopping" in the air prepares you for your landing, stopping all damage on small falls.
It does need a minimum height for said damage, too, mainly for lights to prevent it because, well, honestly people will never take this like a simulator (...god knows it's too damn Arcadey but for chrissakes pretend it is and some gripes will instantly disappear; brace those legs for a fall instead of running in the air).
You're in mid stride while jumping from a theoretical standpoint.
"Stopping" in the air prepares you for your landing, stopping all damage on small falls.
It does need a minimum height for said damage, too, mainly for lights to prevent it because, well, honestly people will never take this like a simulator (...god knows it's too damn Arcadey but for chrissakes pretend it is and some gripes will instantly disappear; brace those legs for a fall instead of running in the air).
I tested this, it doesn't work for me on HPG. I used HPG because of the clear drop-off over the side of the ramp, because on hilly terrain, hitting the stop key may introduce the possibility that I hit the stop key *before* dropping off, which means that I actually slowed down before going airborne, reducing the forward distance travelled, and therefore reducing the height of the fall when my feet touch down onto the downhill slope again.
On HPG, climb partway up a ramp, turn sideways, and then go over the edge of it. Keep running, take note of vertical velocity meter. Take leg damage. Repeat the experiment by going up the same ramp to the same point, dropping off, and hitting 'X' in mid-air. Repeat until you reach the same vertical velocity as in the first part of the experiment. You'll still take leg damage.
For me, I hit 34 feet/sec, both for continuing to run, and hitting 'X' in mid air. Both times I still take leg damage.
So, while I think you had an interesting theory, I already doubted that PGI would bother to introduce such a "sim-like" element into the fall damage mechanic so that players could mitigate it by hitting 'X' as a way to brace for the fall. This shows that it doesn't matter whether your throttle is at 0 or 100% when hitting the ground, the vertical descent speed is all that matters.
BTW, the way jump jets are modelled is not realistic at all. For a Jenner, the strong initial thrust will get you *instantly* to an ascent speed of 6 feet/sec, with no intermediate acceleration. After that, the ascent speed barely changes, gradually increasing to 7 and then 8 feet/sec. Instead, it should be *accelerating*.
I mean, it appears that jump jets have a thrust-to-weight ratio that's just barely greater than 1. If it wasn't for the strong initial jump velocity, mechs wouldn't be able to get hardly any altittude from a jump at all.
And that's why if you're falling, even at a very slow speed like 15 feet/sec, jump jets have no chance of reversing the fall and helping you rise up again.
People need to adjust to cutting throttle a bit when going down slopes
A little bit of throttle control will keep you grounded just fine
An element of piloting skill is added into the game and ZOMG THE WORLD IS ENDING
Gamers are outright lazy these days, maybe it's just the Tribes background but having to navigate slopes carefully while travelling at high speed feels pretty natural to me
People need to adjust to cutting throttle a bit when going down slopes
A little bit of throttle control will keep you grounded just fine
An element of piloting skill is added into the game and ZOMG THE WORLD IS ENDING
Gamers are outright lazy these days, maybe it's just the Tribes background but having to navigate slopes carefully while travelling at high speed feels pretty natural to me
It's more the occasional glitch(?) that causes you to suffer damage from a really minor fall, plus the sense that Alpine has gone from a mech hiking simulator map to an epic hotwheels track simulator map .
It's more the occasional glitch(?) that causes you to suffer damage from a really minor fall, plus the sense that Alpine has gone from a mech hiking simulator map to an epic hotwheels track simulator map .
Minus the jumps, ofc.
Just gotta be careful about your drop-offs, 1 second in freefall accelerates you to the 30ft/s cutoff for damage. What looks like a minor fall relative to your vector is a sizable drop if you lose ground contact at 140+kph, because your speed carries you to a point far further down the slope than it would at 80kph.
So, while I think you had an interesting theory, I already doubted that PGI would bother to introduce such a "sim-like" element into the fall damage mechanic so that players could mitigate it by hitting 'X' as a way to brace for the fall. This shows that it doesn't matter whether your throttle is at 0 or 100% when hitting the ground, the vertical descent speed is all that matters.
It was the case before this new fall damage. Also you need to have enough time for the "green" bar of inertia to slow down to a complete 0 kph. So the fall needs to be about 6 to 8 meters to have enough time.
Try it again on a longer fall and watch that bar.
For the most part people need to learn to slow down like this. Notice, full speed, damage. Slow down, no damage. Still holds true.
Though, falls need to accelerate, not be instant as you said. Same with jumpjets, accelerate, not be instant.
It was the case before this new fall damage. Also you need to have enough time for the "green" bar of inertia to slow down to a complete 0 kph. So the fall needs to be about 6 to 8 meters to have enough time.
Try it again on a longer fall and watch that bar.
For the most part people need to learn to slow down like this. Notice, full speed, damage. Slow down, no damage. Still holds true.
Though, falls need to accelerate, not be instant as you said. Same with jumpjets, accelerate, not be instant.
Good stuff, I'll check again to make sure the green "inertia" bar drains completely before contact.
As long as there's some in-gameplay method of mitigating these falls with non-JJ mechs, ala a piloting skill check as in TT, I'm actually OK with it.
As usual I'm surprised by your attention to detail, man.
As usual I'm surprised by your attention to detail, man.
I'm also proud of yours. The instant fall speed is a problem causing many of the small fall issues.
It may also be why PGI has had problems with 'adjusting gravity'... if their server automatically assumes all falls are at instant speeds and not accelerated toward, it's a bad issue. The same is true for how the jumpjets work.
Having to accelerate in a fall to said 30 f/s would negate most of the small fall damage issues (so would more better care in driving). Essentially 'true' inertia is missing from the game (definitely true of projectiles).
If jumpjets also accelerated from 0 to speed, most of our easy poptarting issues with single JJs would also be gone. Thus they'd be required to pack on more jumpjets to get high enough to fire otherwise they won't have enough to soften the landings. It would also remove the near "instant" padded landing syndrome I'm having with Kitfoxes too.
People need to adjust to cutting throttle a bit when going down slopes
A little bit of throttle control will keep you grounded just fine
An element of piloting skill is added into the game and ZOMG THE WORLD IS ENDING
Gamers are outright lazy these days, maybe it's just the Tribes background but having to navigate slopes carefully while travelling at high speed feels pretty natural to me
It's hard enough staying alive in a light mech when multiple enemies are shooting at you after you make a strafing run, asking light pilots to slow down while getting shot at is too much.
And I'd have to agree with the other posters here, the problem isn't the long drops (which light pilots don't do anyway), but the surprising amount of damage you take skipping down small hills in maps like Alpine. Maybe the solution is to apply a mech's acceleration along the slope it is standing on instead of horizontally, so going down slopes don't cause as much skipping.
Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 04 July 2014 - 07:44 PM
fat4eyes, on 04 July 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:
And I'd have to agree with the other posters here, the problem isn't the long drops (which light pilots don't do anyway),
not arguing the rest of your comment either way.................
But Lights regularly have ducked out the long drops on alpine and the lower end of Frozen, since each map was introduced. Pilots regularly treat their mechs like skydivers.
I'm also proud of yours. The instant fall speed is a problem causing many of the small fall issues.
It may also be why PGI has had problems with 'adjusting gravity'... if their server automatically assumes all falls are at instant speeds and not accelerated toward, it's a bad issue. The same is true for how the jumpjets work.
Having to accelerate in a fall to said 30 f/s would negate most of the small fall damage issues (so would more better care in driving). Essentially 'true' inertia is missing from the game (definitely true of projectiles).
If jumpjets also accelerated from 0 to speed, most of our easy poptarting issues with single JJs would also be gone. Thus they'd be required to pack on more jumpjets to get high enough to fire otherwise they won't have enough to soften the landings. It would also remove the near "instant" padded landing syndrome I'm having with Kitfoxes too.
Yeah, I think part of the issue we're seeing is that the terrain's visual geometry often mis-matches the actual terrain clipping boundaries used for collision detection. You know the invisible wall problem. There may be falls that look like they are only 5 meters, but because of the mech's bounding boxes, and the terrain's bounding boxes extending outside of the visual geometry, it might actually be a 10 meter fall, resulting in leg damage.
Whereas in other places, the bounding boxes might be "skin tight", and what looks like 5 meters really is 5 meters, so when you drop off of it, you take no damage. Or, if it's a bit higher, use your "brace for fall" technique to take no damage on landing.
And of course the opposite can also happen, where a fall looks like 10 meters, but it's actually only 5 meters because the bounding boxes extend too far.
And yes, I really wish they'd re-model the jump jet physics, along with projectiles inheriting the shooter's velocity vector! Mechwarrior 3 had this, I don't know why MWO doesn't have it.
not arguing the rest of your comment either way.................
But Lights regularly have ducked out the long drops on alpine and the lower end of Frozen, since each map was introduced. Pilots regularly treat their mechs like skydivers.
True. Actually the current scalar fall damage isn't realistic for how it scales with velocity. Right now the fall damage scales linearly with the velocity. It should scale with the square of the velocity. If you double the descent speed, it should quadruple the damage.
That 100 meter fall you took should've been near fatal, actually. The pilot would've experienced 24+ g's. Humans usually can't tolerate that, especially if the onset of the g-forces is very sudden. Maybe with an aggressive seat-back angle and a suspension system for the pilot within the cockpit, it might be do-able, ala John Stapp's 30+ g-force crash tests (with him as the test subject!), but yeah it's kinda brutal.
For me, the adjustment I'd like to see is:
1.) minimum of 14 meters/sec descent speed before taking *any* fall damage. That translates to falling a distance of 10 meters on a planet with the same gravity as Earth.
2.) fall damage scales with the *square* of the velocity. If you hit the ground at 20 meters/sec, you take X amount of damage. if you hit the ground at 40 meters/sec, you take 4X the damage. Hit the ground at 60 meters/sec and you'd take 9X the damage.
True. Actually the current scalar fall damage isn't realistic for how it scales with velocity. Right now the fall damage scales linearly with the velocity. It should scale with the square of the velocity. If you double the descent speed, it should quadruple the damage.
So I was in Skyrim with a level 1 character on some high mountains near the glacier edges of Windhelm and Winterhold using Immersive First Person as a mod.
I found myself, as normal, carefully scaling down the ledges because I know as a human if I drop too far I won't be worrying about damage but dying.
So instead of walking/sneaking carefully down the ledges, I thought to myself... just how dangerous is this?
I found the game frightfully forgiving considering how steep the angles were that I was climbing down considering that I started running.
A simulator like Arma or DayZ would've slowed me to a crawl and a 3 meter fall would hurt, a 5 meter fall would easily break my leg in the game. In real life I broke my arm to a 2.7 meter fall as a kid so I've had a natural fear of heights (btw, believe it or not if your foot gets caught... letting go of the tree with both hands to use them to get your foot unstuck might work, but...isn't worth it).
I made my first fall. Approximately 12 feet, so 3.65 meters. Minor damage. I healed up and found myself at a cliff edge I'd never dared to leap off of before. It was roughly 6 maybe 7 meters. I tried to fall but the game wouldn't let me as if I was glued to the damn impossible slope, so I went back up and I did a little hop. Landed and entered a bleedout (I have Death Alternative). I apparently received so much damage that my extra bleedout health bar instantly depleted, so I got a warning that I entered bleed out followed by another saying that I lost consciousness.
I promptly found myself enslaved to the Falmer and 'died' again almost immediately to fall damage that still wasn't applied. This time I stayed dead.
Oops.
-------
There was a time in the real DayZ (not the mod), much to my sadness, that I was looking for a sniper that we had befriended by chance who we kinda simply didn't trust. It's just that we happened to have her comrade (she had a male character but her voice is distinctly female) in a precarious condition when Verrick told me about her location in the grass nearby. We chose the friendly route and ran to snag water. They pursued, she held me at gun point, I drew my gun while she looked away, and we both wound up putting our guns away. Anyway her friend refused to join us, so she came along on her own which made us nervous and while checking out a parking structure she kept disappearing. Her rifle outclassed us in range easily so we kept taking turns keeping an eye on where we thought she'd be.
It was my turn and I had just gone up the stairs, one story up. I heard a gunshot so I turned in that direction. I couldn't see anything but zombies were reacting to something just behind a tree. I took a side step for a better angle. Fell a little less than two stories (roughly 11 feet). Broke my leg. Soon as we could we changed servers, but a second after I left Verrick was murdered.
--------
The moral is that height matters in most games, in fact and interestingly enough in Skyrim the damage did more than quadruple for double the fall and DayZ/Arma are actually considered forgiving compared to real life (the DayZ Mod and Arma 2 more than the newer Arma 3 and DayZ Standalone). In Battlefield 3 without the spam-worthy parachute, you can die of a fall of 3 stories and that's in an extremely forgiving game. Funny enough even with the same parachute if you're holding W, you can die from a fall of 3 stories anyway. Not that a parachute would actually reduce your falling speed at that height anyway... This is where I learned to slow down, as tapping S slows down your descent while the parachute is active.
As you might note, I'm manually adjusting my speed of descent with the W and S keys during this.
In MWO I tried this out of habit, and learned that (before this patch), if my speed was under 40 kph and the fall was under 40 meters for an assault mech, I'd receive no damage. I began to abuse this liberally. Meanwhile light mechs, avoiding that kind of thing was almost impossible except for tiny falls, but the speed had to be 'zero' as in no throttle at all to take no damage from falls up to 40 meters. Still, it had to be high enough to reach zero speed on the acceleration bar (green). Just being slower wasn't enough unless you were jumping.
I wound up applying the trick to all my mechs.
On here, I've had only a little trouble. It seems to involve the pitfalls.
My troubles though are the following:
I've had places where I'm showing as falling even when I'm not, and received damage from it. Pretty noteworthy when walking around on the high reaches of HPG and on most building roof tops. Something tells me PGI hasn't been testing its rooftop surfaces even though they put a goddamn PARK WITH GRASS AND TREES on a ROOFTOP! O_O! I get the need for Easter Eggs like the couch, TV, trash, table, and PCGamer magazine inside the hut on River City/Forest Colony, but damn. Why a park with trees on a place that was impossible to reach when the River City map first came out?
I've had places where I fall, repeatedly, but the meter says I'm not (riding on someone's back).
That scalar damage seems to reduce as your leg structure takes damage. The math mentions it is based on your leg structure and even includes the 5% extra defense for light mech legs (which is funny because simply making the leg hitboxes actual size instead of oversized would have fixed the problem much simpler; then again you shoot the air near a Locust and you hit the Locust). Anyway, with weak legs you seem to be able to fall greater distances. This is kinda good for a bad situation, but like many things PGI does it's inconsistent. In what way does having weaker legs allow me to fall greater distances?
Though most of all, it doesn't seem to matter what kind of fall I do, every short fall automatically is either 16.9 f/s or 30 f/s. There is no acceleration, it's instant, causing damage where it's not due. Most small falls are causing me damage, but longer falls where the stop in the air trick works let me skirt with no damage.
So again, we need acceleration or this idea of PGI's is not going to work.
6
MonkeyCheese, on 04 July 2014 - 01:49 AM, said:
.
