83 replies to this topic

[Exilyth]

It's a shame what Harmony Gold did to Super Dimensional Fortress Macross, Genesis Climber Mospeada and Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross.

Most people don't even know Robotech has been made from three different unrelated anime series.

[kurexjan]

There seems to be a lot of speculation about Harmony Gold and licencing in this thread. As with the tradition of most forums, I think we are probably confusing the issue or spreading false and/or outdated information.

I believe the licencing around MWO is also more complicated than typically expressed here on the forums. As a result, I typically withhold judgment on these issues unless I'm confident in the factual accuracy of the information.

As for the kickstarter, I think the money might be only for developing a pilot to shop around to networks and not an entire series.

[bossclan]

It says right on their site that the kickstarter is for the pilot,they are trying to get 500k through backers to make it.

[Xeno Phalcon]

With fewer and fewer opportunities to sue other companies a desperate HG turns to crowd funding, news at eleven.

[Pht]

9erRed, on 05 July 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Greetings all,

Reference FASA:
- Microsoft acquired the electronic rights to FASA properties when it acquired FASA Interactive in 1999 and formed FASA Studio's.
- FASA was shut down in 2007 by Microsoft.
- Smith and Tinker acquired the rights to MechWarrior and Crimson Sky's shortly thereafter.

Ref:
- FASA Studio was dissolved in 2007 and all of the FASA rights were then licensed to Jordan Weisman. In 2007 Weisman founded Smith & Tinker. It was through Smith & Tinker that Weisman was able to relicense his old FASA properties. Smith & Tinker has licensed the electronic entertainment rights to Crimson Skies, Shadowrun, MechWarrior and other FASA properties that had belonged to Microsoft.
- On September, 2011 Weisman partnered with Piranha Games to create the MechWarrior Reboot called MechWarrior Online.

To clarify this.

MS got the rights to the video game implementations (or possibly wider, the electronic implementations of the bt IP) when it got Fasa interactive/studios.

MS did NOT get the rights to the actual BattleTech IP. Topps (yes, the baseball card/etc topps) owns that. Catalyst Game Labs currently holds the rights - from topps - to develop and use the BT ip.

I have no idea about any relationship between Topps and MS as far as concerns any of the IP.

Smith and tinker were given the rights, by MS, to make a Mechwarrior game. S&T did NOT actually get the IP; MS still held the video game IP rights on the BT IP (that topps owns).

---

Question: Got source for JW (through S&T) being licensed the rights in 07' ? I'm not disputing you, but I've never heard that part of the timeline and am interested in the originating source for that bit of news.

I know S&T got the rights to develop on MW at least; hadn't kept up with the other games. The shadowrun video game that MS did, that was before fasa studios was closed up, right?

Yep; PGI and JW did team up, but I believe their initial contact was in 2009 or possibly late in 2008. Maybe 2011 was the "official start?"

Quote

Harmony Gold lost a court case...

No. They did not lose. Nor did FASA lose either. HG and FASA decided to make some sort of deal out of court, and the details of that deal are secret to this day. I believe only the parties to that deal know exactly what happened.

The case wasn't won or lost. It was dropped before any ruling.

Quote

referencing there legal rights to 'what they thought' was exclusive rights for the MechWarrior distribution in the US. (apparently the company they bought these 'rights' from didn't actually own them.)

HG never contested that they had rights to distribute mechwarrior anything in the US. They were contesting over the use of the "macross" visual designs and possibly the use of the toys made to those visuals that were based off of visual/toy use/distribution rights that HG *contested* they had.

Quote

- Still a hotly contested topic.

9erRed

Extremely so. I finally got tired of it all and actually read what freely-available court documents there were on the two cases involved (playmates toys vs Fasa, than after that HG vs Fasa), and what extremely few first hand original-source things on the net I could find. It was ... very interesting.

CycKath, on 05 July 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

Japanese rights holders are just likely to block for the very same reasons as HG, only the fact FASA/Fanpro/Topps have run very hard away from Macross stuff and created the reseens would save them from new lawsuits from that angle.

The really annoying/scary part of this is that the japanese rights are still in somewhat of a legal limbo, even though some court cases in the early 2000's sorted out who owned what between tatsunoko/etc and studio nue/etc.

Basically it seems that FASA and HG ... BOTH ... got the rights to the visual designs through tatsunoko.

FASA did it via Twentieth Century Imports (a now defunct toy company) and HG dealed directly with Tatsu - BUT .... the late court cases in the 2k's ... decided that Tatsu DID NOT have the rights to the visual designs (and the whole unseens mess is only over the visuals). Studio nue/big west(?) owns the rights to the visual designs. Tatsu gave TCI and HG the rights to use something ... that they apparently never had the right to give. Meaning, on our end of this mess, it *appears* that the HG case would have to be resolved, THAN the cases in japan would have to be fully tested/resolved THAN Topps would have to go INTO japan and negotiate the rights to use the visuals.

Edited by Pht, 06 July 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[Xoxim SC]

I LOL'd pretty hard when I saw this. Reminds me of those goofy cartoons I watched when I was young. Dead project is dead.

[Sereglach]

The truly sad part about this whole debacle is the fact that Harmony Gold seems to feel that it owns the names of "Warhammer", "Marauder", "Wasp", etc.. Every time the unseens are even brought up there are threats and cringes over what lawsuit will be brought up next. It doesn't even matter how much the art is changed. Project Phoenix did such radical redesigns that the argument (despite being brought up) was finally shot down, and an adequate change in visual art had occurred. Look at PGI: Even with their amazing art team and drastic overhauls of mechs they're STILL afraid to touch the HG unseens.

As much as I love the original Robotech Macross series, and own the box set, I would shed no tears over the death of Harmony Gold. Personally I look forward to it happening, and hope their kickstarter scrambling to create a pilot episode is the beginning of those death throes.

I would much rather see all rights to Battletech and Robotech be consolidated, properly licensed, and have the confusion put to an end. Maybe threats of lawsuits and toxicity would leave BOTH franchises. Then, maybe we could also see some better coordination between PGI and the creation of some new wonderful MWO minis by Ironwind.

Regardless, the sad part is that people are terrified to touch the Battletech franchise because of the fate of FASA and Microsoft's shelving of it (THANK YOU PGI for reviving it!). MechWarrior is virulently toxic at this point, and Battletech proper suffered a harsh blow from it all. On the other hand, mere mentions of Robotech and Harmony Gold bring about a disgusting ire towards the company and its history . . . even if we loved the old series. This, of course, is brought about by their relentless and disgusting conduct of lawsuits.

[Gremlich Johns]

Exilyth, on 05 July 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

It's a shame what Harmony Gold did to Super Dimensional Fortress Macross, Genesis Climber Mospeada and Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross.

Most people don't even know Robotech has been made from three different unrelated anime series.

Carl Macek, the "creative mind" behind Robotech, was also known as "Carl the Butcher". And while I'd rather watch the original animes, Carl did a credible job making one contiguous story arc out of three different animes.

At least the mecha from Crusher Joe and Fang of the Sun: Dougram were not captured by HG.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 06 July 2014 - 08:48 AM.

[Exilyth]

In case anyones's interested, here's the legalese which happened between FASA and HG:
http://alex.kaempen....ld_v._fasa.html
http://alex.kaempen....d_v._fasa2.html

[Pht]

... and here are all of the related cases, which started with FASA v. Playmates Toys; which give informative context to the later HG v. FASA case files.

http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/

[Vanguard319]

Tank, on 05 July 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

If company is down to crowdfunding their projects - that most likely mean they can't get a bank loan do the high risk of not making profit to return the loan. I say this devil is paralyzed and on life support and only prolonging it's own agony.

IDK, I wouldn't assume something is on it's last legs just because it's crowd-sourced. (*Cough* Star Citizen *ahem*)

[Tank]

Vanguard319, on 06 July 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

IDK, I wouldn't assume something is on it's last legs just because it's crowd-sourced. (*Cough* Star Citizen *ahem*)

One thing if company starts of crowd sourced, other if they are come down to it.

P.S. Regardless SC, I yet to wish they finish the project, only then judge it as success. They are very ambiguous, yet only collected 50 millions plus to my knowledge, less ambiguous GTA5 took 265 millions to make.
If you wish to continue, please post in SC thread.

[Will9761]

Honestly, Harmony Gold should burn to the ground and rot in hell. I wouldn't support anyone who claims notable mech artwork as their own. Harmony Gold claimed the anime, not the art. But it's like I said before:

Quote

Harmony Gold are a bunch of idiots who think that using lawsuits instead of reasonable marketing strategies would give them profit.

Pathetic...

Edited by Will9761, 06 July 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[Mason Grimm]

Ahhh I miss conversations like this...

I love the smell of futility in the morning air.

[BourbonFaucet]

Is it possible to start a kickstarter to remove another kickstarter?

[Tank]

Techorse, on 06 July 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Is it possible to start a kickstarter to remove another kickstarter?

Maybe, if claim to do the same thing. But you risking of getting sued by HG for next 20 years, that if they don't die off faster.

[BourbonFaucet]

Tank, on 06 July 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

Maybe, if claim to do the same thing. But you risking of getting sued by HG for next 20 years, that if they don't die off faster.

No, just a huge payment to kickstarter to remove the posting, not our own Robotech.

[Ryvucz]

Yeeaah... I'm passing on this.

They want funds for a 24 minute viewing, they don't even mention if they feel like going for a series if it is successful.

Even then, I don't want to back an animation of all things.

- Edit -

37 second mark.

Edited by Ryvucz, 06 July 2014 - 09:49 PM.

[Fiachdubh]

As a 8 or 9 year old used to sneak downstairs at 6 am every Saturday and Sunday to watch Robotech. Nothing else on childrens tv compared. Love triangles, genocide, cool fighter robot thingys. If it wasn't for HG how many of us would have seen the three original Japanese series or would anime have broken through in the west as early as it did? Who knows.

HG defended their property just as FASA would have done if the roles where reversed, FASA was in the wrong from the start to rip off Robotech and other series. I love the unseen mechs, Marauder IIc has always been my favourite and I hope they can get as many of them in game as possible without using those reseen abominations but boycotting HG does nothing but prevent another potentially great series that could indirectly bring more people to MWO and BT. Besides if HG did fold altogether it could leave the unseen rights in limbo where neither MWO nor anyone else can touch them.

[Lily from animove]

wow the 7500$ stage is quite crappy