53 replies to this topic

[Pezzer]

I pose a single question to the community: is there any way to counter the triple Dire Wolf trend that is going on (in premades)? Thus far, they seem unstoppable. Wanna wolfpack lights? Those Dire Wolves can turn quickly enough to swipe at you, plus they need ECM in the form of a Light Mech. Wanna wolfpack mediums? You're too big of a target. Wanna LRM boat? Good luck doing that unless you can counter their ECM without losing the two guys with tag and BAP and the one ECM light you brought to the party. Wanna Timber smash? They almost always have Timbers too, plus we're talking about Dire Wolves here.

But what about countering Dire Wolves with Dire Wolves and/or D-DCs? That seems to be the only viable tactic I can think of, which is basically fighting cheese with cheese. If there are any other battlefield-proven tactics that work most of the time against these highly coordinated long/short range powerhouses, I would like to hear it. Because every time I go against a pre-made with dire Wolves, I tend to lose. And while the Dire Wolf is fun to play, it's not worth playing 24/7.

Edited by Pezzer, 07 July 2014 - 05:53 AM.

[Tastian]

Narc (or UAV) + LRMs

[xMintaka]

Stop standing still in front of three Dire Wolves.

[Edustaja]

Arty and airstrikes.
Jumpy srm brawlers.
Jumpsnipers.

[Pezzer]

Tastian, on 07 July 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

Narc (or UAV) + LRMs

The problem with that is said Dire Wolf team almost always has ECM and/or lots of AMS in the form of other nearby Mechs. Unless you're team is made up of NARC/TAG/Artemis IV LRM boats, it isn't going to happen. Assuming the UAV isn't shot down, those Dire Wolves are usually in cover or under ECM. This means that target locks are so slow to obtain that a Dire Wolf can simply walk out of UAV range.

Simply put, LRM boating CAN work but only against a slightly-less coordinated team.

[Modo44]

Kill their friends. Alternatively, enjoy the turkey shoot if the entire team moves at their speed.

[Pezzer]

Edustaja, on 07 July 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

Arty and airstrikes.
Jumpy srm brawlers.
Jumpsnipers.

I appreciate these ideas, but airstrikes are usually too low in supply to be effective. Maybe I'll start a pre-made that boats more of them...
I can see how SRM brawlers could help, but only to a point. Jumpssnipers are almost always out-sniped by a good team of Dire Wolves.

So, so far what I'm hearing is that indirect fire works well if you're lucky. I also just thought about using ECM extreme-range Light Mechs to slowly melt their CTs away. That may work as well, since being at ER-LL range usually puts you out of AC and PPC range, excluding skilled players with Targeting Computers.

[PlzDie]

Lunatech, on 07 July 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

Stop standing still in front of three Dire Wolves.

Moving also does not really help when one of them can have a 50 pin point alpha with a extra 10 points splash bonus, two c-gauss and two c-erppc.
Seeing more of those around lately, and the charge mechanic is not a balancing factor, anybody that knows how to macro already worked around that silly mechanic.

[Edustaja]

Pezzer, on 07 July 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

I appreciate these ideas, but airstrikes are usually too low in supply to be effective. Maybe I'll start a pre-made that boats more of them...
I can see how SRM brawlers could help, but only to a point. Jumpssnipers are almost always out-sniped by a good team of Dire Wolves.

So, so far what I'm hearing is that indirect fire works well if you're lucky. I also just thought about using ECM extreme-range Light Mechs to slowly melt their CTs away. That may work as well, since being at ER-LL range usually puts you out of AC and PPC range, excluding skilled players with Targeting Computers.

Triple assault anythings played as a group are always a large threat. Think 3 Dragonslayers, 3 D-DC's, 3 Miseries, 3 HGN's etc.
There's no easy win button to take those out.

Dire wolves however are slow and have a large CT. A good jumpsniper can do a lot of damage on these at range. A group of brawlers can swarm and kill them. 3 coordinated lights can drop up to 6 strikes on them while the rest of the group deals with everything else.

You can also try playing conquest or assault and using mobility targets to isolate those three from the main group.

They're certainly very strong but not unbeatable.

[Void Angel]

Dire Wolves are poster children for the "Nothing Can Outslug a Clanner Club." If your team tries to go toe to toe with a Dire Wolf, it's going to hurt. However, you can still fight them effectively with mobility tactics by keeping the fight moving. This is obviously more difficult in certain maps (cough, Forest Colony, cough,) but you can still do it. A large part of the Dire Wolf's strength can come from players succumbing to Clantardation - the tendency to rely on long-range weapons to the exclusion of teamwork. A Dire Wolf just simply wins that fight, but they can be fought if you make them move to deal with you.

[Void Angel]

Another principle that can be used is that Clanners' firepower and range advantages come at the cost of reduced heat-to-damage ratios. Thus, any Clanner who's using ERPPCs will overheat sometime if you can keep the pressure on. If you're a sniper yourself, this will be nearly impossible, but brawlers are another matter. Brawling is in fact the only arena where the Inner Sphere has a clear advantage over the Clans on paper - though it remains to be seen whether brawling will turn out to be viable enough in the metagame to capitalize on that advantage.

Edited by Void Angel, 07 July 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[Tastian]

Pezzer, on 07 July 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

The problem with that is said Dire Wolf team almost always has ECM and/or lots of AMS in the form of other nearby Mechs. Unless you're team is made up of NARC/TAG/Artemis IV LRM boats, it isn't going to happen. Assuming the UAV isn't shot down, those Dire Wolves are usually in cover or under ECM. This means that target locks are so slow to obtain that a Dire Wolf can simply walk out of UAV range.

Simply put, LRM boating CAN work but only against a slightly-less coordinated team.

Wait, you said 3 Dire Wolves, not 3 Dire Wolves, an ECM mech, lots of other mechs with AMS, and other guards that can counter lights all hanging around together. What you are describing is good team play. As has already said, imagine 3 DDCs (with a coordinated team), or 3 Timberwolves (with a coordinated team), or 3 sniper Cicada 3M's (with a coordinated team), or 3 LRM boat Stalkers (with a coordinated team).

So, yes, 3 Dire Wolves are easy to counter, but 3 Dire Wolves and 9 other mechs perfectly guarding those Dire Wolves can be much harder. Good coordinated team play > 12 pugs.

[HlynkaCG]

Team work is OP.

Nerf it!

[HlynkaCG]

Ok serious answer time.

As others have already noted Clanners pay for thier increased damage and range in the form of heat and reduced rate of fire. the Dire Whale in particular is very slow and turns like a pig. Hell I'm able to run circles around them in my shotgun Jaegar never mind a Light or Medium actually built for that purpose. Keep the pressure on and then laugh at them when they overheat.

A fast SRM boat eats DWs for breakfast.

I actually fear Novas and Madcats more than a I fear DWs simply because I know they have the speed and torso twist to stay with me should I need to bail.

As for premades there isn't a whole lot you can do on your own other than try to close on them without being shot. 3 anything working together is going to be tough. Just scroll back through the forums and look at the number of "ECM Atlas...", "Stalker...", and "Jumpsniper premades are OP" threads there have been over the years.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 07 July 2014 - 08:39 AM.

[Pekiti]

What Tastian said - the OP isn't about 'triple Dire Wolf' issues, but 'triple Dire Wolves who have AMS/ECM/coordinated friends'.

Any three assaults with AMS/ECM /coordinated friends is a deadly threat, even to your 'triple Dire Wolf' lance.

You kill them just like any other powerful, slow mech: use terrain and range to your advantage, focus fire, kill off their supporting lance mates, and hit them from angles other than head on.

[Koniving]

Pezzer, on 07 July 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

By yourself? Probably not.

Some group-oriented easy fixes include: NARC + LRMs. Speed + NARC + Clan Streaks in dense areas of cover or at speeds of 97+ kph (Kitfoxes, Adders, Stormcrows).

Strong laser builds and 'passer by' tactics are good for one on one. But against multiples, you need group tactics. Mechs to keep them busy (preferably at long range) then sneak up on them from behind.

Taking out arms will cripple most Dire Wolf builds.
Most Dire wolf builds with lots of ACs have molded paper armor on their legs. Especially quad Gauss Dire Wolves.

[Josef Koba]

While I've had some success running solo, I'd offer that Dire Wolves are only really effective in a premade or a PUG that intends to play as a team and attempts to coordinate. A DW can pretty much wreck any heavy or assault one on one, taking into account pilot skill of course. But if the two are equal, the throw weight of a DW will turn even an Atlas into slag pretty quick. If I take it out by myself I'm pretty much rolling the dice. I might do well, but chances are good that I'll get demolished by LRMs and sneaky lights in no time. Chances are even better that I'll be fighting alone and probably more than one enemy at a time. That said, I think the main point of this thread is one we already know: Team work will prevail the majority of the time, Dire Wolves or not.

[Autobot9000]

I would say it depends on their loadout. If theyre three snipers get some fast mechs and go dance. If they're brawlers get some snipers and shoot the ducks. Otherwise LRMs or equally bad ass mechs. Would you expect to kill 3 Banshees with 3 Hunchbacks? Dream on.

[RustyBolts]

So far the nastiest combo I have seen is the 2 Direwolf with AC with a DDC in the middle then 2 Timber wolfs and a cataphfrat outside them. It was a wall of hell that was destroying anything that got in front of them.

[IraqiWalker]

Pezzer, on 07 July 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

I appreciate these ideas, but airstrikes are usually too low in supply to be effective. Maybe I'll start a pre-made that boats more of them...
I can see how SRM brawlers could help, but only to a point. Jumpssnipers are almost always out-sniped by a good team of Dire Wolves.

So, so far what I'm hearing is that indirect fire works well if you're lucky. I also just thought about using ECM extreme-range Light Mechs to slowly melt their CTs away. That may work as well, since being at ER-LL range usually puts you out of AC and PPC range, excluding skilled players with Targeting Computers.

Okay. I have fought against these premades and as part of them (although to be honest, my unit doesn't do skewed drops like that very often). LRMs will ruin their day easily. Especially if they are IS LRMs, and not clan LRMs. You need roughly 5-6 AMS working together to destroy a single LRM 20 volley. My BLR-1S spews 50 LRMs every few seconds (2xLRM10s+2xLRM15s) with the fast cycle time of the LRM10s my rain of fire doesn't end until all 3 Daishis are dead.

UAV counters EVERYTHING under it, and NARC breaks through at least 1 ECM. 90% of Daishis out there don't have AMS on them btw. Also, if your spotter NARCs/UAVs their Kitfox with ECM+3xAMS, prioritize that target, and the three Daishi are dead a few seconds later, because they have no retaliation against LRMs.

That's as far as indirect fire.

However, why do you think running a triple Atlas drop is "cheese"?

Brawling Atlas builds are perfect for destroying Daishis, with terrifying armor improved by great torso twisting range and rates.

Positioning is actually what you really need to beat a daishi premade. Positioning and mobility.