110 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

Hellcat420, on 07 July 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

well ya, what do you expect, a 30-50 ton mech to take damage like a 75-100 ton mech?

No ... I think his point is that mechs should not be able to deliver 50+ points of damage to one exact point at ranges of 800+ meters ... one lucky shot and you lose a leg if you are driving a light or medium.

I think the main point of this thread is that lights and mediums are more luck dependent. I played about a dozen matches yesterday in Jenner, Firestarter and Kitfox ... generally lots of fun and fairly effective ... but in two of those matches (1 Jenner, 1 Kitfox) the mech had a leg blown off by long range high damage alpha strikes - both legs still had armor before going poof. I wandered around still fighting for the rest of the match - one win and one loss - but whoever blew the leg off didn't manage to kill me since they weren't able to get in another lucky shot ... if we were brawling I would have been toast.

So ... lights and mediums should not be able to withstand damage like heavies and assaults ... the best solution would be some sort of timed weapon convergence so you need to hold the target for 0.5s before the weapons converge to a point. This would significantly reduce the issues with PPFLD since it would not be PP unless you can hold the target for the required convergence time.

P.S. What is convergence? If weapons are in fixed mounts they fire in straight lines and can NEVER all hit the exact same point. In order for a set of weapons on a mech to hit one point the aim of each weapon must be adjusted individually in real time. These weapons weigh tons so the change in focus should not be instantaneous. Instead it should take 0.25s or 0.5s to get all weapons to focus at the targeting distance indicated by the reticle. Firing before this time limit would mean that the weapons are not "locked". Of course this would require more processing power ... at the present time weapons have the reticle aim point projected onto the terrain or target mech. Weapon fire is traced from the weapon mount location to the X,Y,Z location of the reticle intersection with terrain or mech. This changes instantaneously so moving the reticle during a laser pulse can result in significant misses during the pulse even if the reticle is only slightly off the target.

However, proper convergence would significantly reduce the effectiveness of the poptart meta since poptarts are less likely to be able to hold the reticle on the target for the full convergence time.

[DjPush]

Sounds like the OP needs to spend more time in a medium or light mech. I cant tell you how many times I have been killed by one in a clan mech. Those little frackers sneak up behind me and take my torsos. There is a reason light mechs are targeted first. Good light pilots know how to support the mechs carrying all the guns. Narc, TAG and ECM are your weapons. When an assault is battling a mech you are the one hitting the componants with no armor. Work on some new tactics buddy. With clan mechs in the game now it is something we all have to do now.

[Shredhead]

To all those in this thread that tell the OP to L2P:

Get on his level!

Because I can tell you he's scraping at high Elo ranges, we see him often and recognise him as a good player. Nothing I can say about you guys.

[Gyrok]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 07 July 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

So far the the argument is "you must suck"

I find that....insufficient. My last match I scored 533 damage in the nova, it's not a matter of ability. I know how to play a medium, I came in top 50 the last two medium v/s the world.

Lets review my actual arguments:

Playing a light/medium means you will have no margin for error. One lapse and you're down.

The current heavy/assault clan mechs can remove your limbs at will.

If you're a medium/light pilot with any kind of elo, you're going to have to work twice as hard to help your team.

All these things are why on any give night, light/medium mechs don't break 20% of total mechs, and why should they?

SO PLEASE, answer these points, if you say LTP Noob, I'll take that as "I'm not reading any of this, I'm just randomly typing as the random neural firings in my head dictate, please disregard any actual words that make it off my keyboard."

Actually, unless you are just unlucky, you can make 2-3 mistakes in a medium, in a light, often 2-3 (unless unlucky), hell, most heavies only get 2-3 mistakes (unless unlucky) as well.

When I drop, late at night, they are typically about 25-35% of the queue. Granted, not in balance with heavy/assault mechs, however, there are sufficient numbers playing them. Of course, that is the late night "high-elo-hill-humping-meta-player" crowd. Ironically, none of them think the mediums are unviable, and most rave about the Stormcrow, specifically.

Hmm...the talented players in the game think nothing is broken, and that the Stormcrow is even better in many respects to the vast majority of other mediums (Shawk is still tough to dethrone due to JJs)...yet here you are with a QQ thread.

See the point?

Shredhead, on 08 July 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

To all those in this thread that tell the OP to L2P:

Get on his level!

Because I can tell you he's scraping at high Elo ranges, we see him often and recognise him as a good player. Nothing I can say about you guys.

I play at high ELO, and I do not know who you are...?

I see Adiuvo, proton, Jager, TFun, Twinky, Heim, wispsy, rickrom, SunCobra, Gman, Antonius Rex, Queenblade, Panicbutton, and many others all the time...so, who, exactly, are you? (besides a troll)

Edited by Gyrok, 08 July 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I wouldn't say "No one" wants to play lights, I have been liking them more and more. Maybe it is because I am more concerned with trying to have fun in the new Clan enviroment and less about being UBER competitive, highest ELO, etc...

I find playing a Light with it's speed and manuverability a rather fun change from the slower lumbering speeds of Heavies I was playing.

Matter of fact, when you combine the Clan's burst A/C with a more reliance on energy weapons (and lights still wonky HSR), I think lights hold up a bit better than they used to in some circumstances. To me, my Heavies seem to represent a more juicier target for getting focused on now. With a light, I can stay under the radar a bit more.

As for Mediums, I haven't played one recently, but I could see them suffering way more.

[Lostdragon]

The answer is role warfare. Imagine if you were fighting on a really big map and suddenly received a dynamic objective to attack/defend a convoy that spawned at one of the points on the map furthest away from the current frontlines. Lights and fast mediums then have a goal other than trying to kill the enemy team or stand in a box.

[Wanzer MkII]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 07 July 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

I'm open to suggestion, what could they do to make those classes competitive again?

People play lights and mediums less because there is no reason to play them. Right now every match is Team Death match. When the quickest way to victory is over your enemies corpses, the only thing you need is more guns.

Lights and mediums are not designed for straight up combat. They are spotters, skirmishers, and recon units. In the current map design, they aren't really needed. The maps are so small you can scout with an Atlus, the objectives so secondary that anything other than a full out battle is a waste of time.

If you want lights and mediums to have more use, you need to do two things. First, make the maps much larger. That would allow lights to be used as spotters for LRM's, as well as recon. Mediums would fill their roll as skirmishers and anti-light units.

Secondly, you make the main objective more important than simply killing everything in site. Make the rewards for winning via capping or resources worth more than killing. Add different game modes that focus on objectives over Death Match. Maybe some kind of Attack and Defend, or CTF. (Done up with lore appropriate dressing, of course.) That gives teams a reason to skirmish, to defend territory, to use the full stable of mech sizes available.

[ztac]

Just blame PGI , It is down to whether or not the rewards compensate for mech type, but from what I have seen it is down to a combination of the player, how the mech is fitted and how badly the MM performs.

Some light players perform better than assaults in games , and I dare say the same can be said of other mech classes too.

You have to see if your play style fits a weight class or not , If not work out which mech class fits your play style the best.

[Xeren KelDar]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 08 July 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

The two idea's

1. I really like are the scale one (why is my centurion so freaking big?), because being less noticeable is more important when you're 55 tons (or 50 tons and straddled with 5 tons of jump jets, looking at you, Nova).

Jump jets on for mechs up to 55 tons weigh half a ton, making the sum total of the devoted weight to a Nova's Jump Jets 2.5 tons. Four tons of the Nova weight are taken in double heat sinks, it hard mounts 14, so they take up more tonnage and crits than the jump jets.

[Shredhead]

Gyrok, on 08 July 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

I play at high ELO, and I do not know who you are...?

I see Adiuvo, proton, Jager, TFun, Twinky, Heim, wispsy, rickrom, SunCobra, Gman, Antonius Rex, Queenblade, Panicbutton, and many others all the time...so, who, exactly, are you? (besides a troll)

YOU play high Elo? Ahahahahahahahaha. I'll keep that for later, that's just too funny.

[Apnu]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 07 July 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

That's just it, I wasn't "standing in front", I had my leg go red from across the canyon map from at least 800m while I was moving. You can screw up all match long in heavy/assault and still come out with some kills and damage. You only get one mistake in a light/medium. One.

This is true because heavies and assaults make up 70% of the mechs chosen by the player base in any given match on average. Playing a medium is like playing on "hard" and yes, you can make one mistake and survive it in a medium. That's part of the charm for me when I drive medium mechs.

In a light, you cannot make one mistake. Last night on Forest Colony Snow, my team set up in outside the tunnel, a firestarter came out to do, what I have no idea, but he was alpha'd by 5 mechs and died in seconds. Lights don't have the armor to survive anything but other lights. Their armor is speed, avoiding the aggression of the other team, and decisions.

The same is true for mediums. You have more armor but less speed. Speed is still important for mediums. I play hunchbacks all the time and use the speed, agility and high torso twist to out corner and backshot heavies and assaults. I also stick to the pug-ball and let the heavies and assaults decide where to go, who to shoot at, and when to push. You can't lead in a medium. Sometimes the pugs make a bad move and you have to go along with it and see what happens.

I've found mediums can work as wingmen for heavy/assaults, or light hunters. That's about it right now. You can make a decent sniper out of some of them, but if you're position is made, you're going to burn that "one mistake" mediums have. Like the 2xERLL RVN-3L, sniper mediums have to strike, then move, strike, then move. Stand still like a 4xPPC stalker (or whatever sniping heavy or assault) and you'll die fast, or at least lose and arm or get a crit.

When driving mediums I have to change my play style from heavies. They can pack decent DPS and/or finishing punch, but they cannot lead the push into the enemy team. They don't have the armor to survive with enough weapons when closing. Get behind that Dire Wolf or Atlas or Victor and follow them in, they make great walking cover, and you need that in a medium.

And this rule stands for every mech and every pilot: If you're alone, you are going to die. Don't be alone.

I have to do these things because so many of the players right now are choosing heavies and assaults. PGI hasn't figured out how to get more players using lights and mediums. Roles would help, or being more strict about 4x3 in pub matches. Clearly something must be done.

But I don't let that keep me from playing mediums, I adjust my tatics and try to find a purpose in a match

[Clit Beastwood]

Gyrok, on 08 July 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

I play at high ELO, and I do not know who you are...?

I see Adiuvo, proton, Jager, TFun, Twinky, Heim, wispsy, rickrom, SunCobra, Gman, Antonius Rex, Queenblade, Panicbutton, and many others all the time...so, who, exactly, are you? (besides a troll)

I bet he's gonna get REEEEEEAL defensive now dood - lol you opened a can of worms.

Edited by Fierostetz, 08 July 2014 - 08:35 AM.

[Devilsfury]

I love my light mechs but the new fall mechanics are kind of stupid. I know falling from a high elevation should damage your legs. I agree totally. What I dont agree on running across a field and there being a small dip on the ground and my legs take 1-3% damage. Sometimes ill be down to 94% without even hitting my JJ on certain maps.

[Nacho Cat]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 07 July 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

The point I keep repeating is that medium/lights are under represented, and you keep avoid that for the LTP argument, which is a lazy argument.

It may not be an underrepresentation of mediums mechs but an over representation of (specifically) Timberwolves. It's almost a guarantee that 2/3 heavies in a drop will be a TW, so it may be that a lot of pilots are queuing with this mech because they're still under the new-shiny spell. Once the initial craze with TWs levels off there may be a more equal representation of each mech class in the queue.

NextGame, on 07 July 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

Second thing:

No one wants to be support, everyone wants to be the hero. Therefore players do not take mechs in which they do not feel that they get to be the hero. This standard mode of conduct is enhanced by the lack of reward for playing anything other than the big gun killing machine.

For the record, I love support roles. Being the cowboy with the biggest gun isn't my thing.

Edited by SereneChaos, 08 July 2014 - 08:46 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Devilsfury, on 08 July 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

I love my light mechs but the new fall mechanics are kind of stupid. I know falling from a high elevation should damage your legs. I agree totally. What I dont agree on running across a field and there being a small dip on the ground and my legs take 1-3% damage. Sometimes ill be down to 94% without even hitting my JJ on certain maps.

try running in gentle serpentines perhaps?

[Trauglodyte]

Sandpit, on 07 July 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

I'm not saying you "suck" OP but if you're facing off against assaults in a medium you definitely might want to rethink your tactics

But but but, this should be allowable...

The suck part about running Lights and Mediums is that you have to try that much harder to be viable. And, the slightest mistake by you combined with extreme luck/skill on part of an enemy can mean your demise. I've had my leg taken off by a Direwolf (Daishi) at over 1000m because they simply were either that good with an alpha or got that lucky. I was in a Light which didn't help the matter but that same result wouldn't have happened if the attacker tried time and time again. The point is, you've got to hold to the addage of being seen and not heard, MWO style. Never be seen and never stick around to get counter attacked. If you do so, you're taking your life into your own hands and will reap what you sowed.

[Foxwalker]

Where are people getting all this "ELO" information from? Is there a published list I missed? Just because you find yourself facing off against some of the better known good players, certainly should not make one draw the conclusion that AH HA, I must be as good as them!!! (After all, I have found myself appossing some of those names, and I am pretty sure it is not due to my amazing abilities (such that they are not ). More likely, you can chalk it up to the Matchmaker being a little arbitrary.

Anyway, my point is that no matter how good you have been or how well you did in a specific mech loadout, most likely the changing game, player stratagies, new mechs, new weapons, weapon tweaks, (buffs and nerfs) can turn your favorite ride into a piece of junk until you adapt it to the now.

Although, I have still been doing fine in the BJ-1 AC20 build. The old IS AC20 still one of the best weapons in the game. As an average player with a good Team (Yea CI/TM) I still can get 1-3 kills and 300-600 Damage in most matches. Not mister 3.4 but still much fun.
.

[Wolfways]

Mediums should be the fastest front line combat mechs, not Lights, which should be scouts/harassers/strikers.

Tiny maps don't help either.

[Rushmoar]

Bottom line I think is heavieis and assaults just move too fast. They have really good torso twist and arm reflexes. You have to be a skilled pilot to be effective in lighter mech. Light mechs have to e lucky all the time while heavy class mechs usually only need to be lucky once. All classes should have weakness so we could have class or role warfair. Only thing heavies have going against them is ground speed and that really is not that big of a handicap anyway
Cheers all.

[Perilthecat]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 07 July 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

I'm trying to level my medium clan mechs, and it's hard when a Direwolf can take your leg to red/off in one shot. I won't group with my team in a medium/light because that makes me a liability, and it's not something an enforced weight class mix will fix.

As long as mediums are so easily hit, and clan mechs can put 4-5 ac's and 1-2 PPC at a time on you, bringing a medium mech will just lower your score.

It's not the players fault that the queue's for those mechs hover under 20%, it's because if you want to compete, those weight classes start you at a disadvantage. Not that you can't do well in them, just that it's considerably harder and to many, not worth the effort.

I'm open to suggestion, what could they do to make those classes competitive again?

Forgive any redundancy, I don't have time to read 5 pages of people taking the p*ss out of you.

Assaults and heavies can kick a medium's butt. Yes.

And?

Working as intended. Why should it be different? Mediums are reasonably fast, armed, and armoured. You stated that you don't stick with the group because you're a liability. Why? The group is exactly where you're supposed to be. You aren't a scout. You're a liability? Why? Do you block shots?

If you're fast you have a speed shield, helps with being legged at 800m. If you pack on more weapons at the expense of speed then expect to get wrecked if you get in an assault's LOF. That's what they do.

If you run a clan mech always tack on the actuators and hands in the arms if you have the option, it gives resistance to crits.

Of course you can make a mistake in an assault, you have twice the armour. That's the whole point! But don't ever expect to be able to make a mistake in front of a 100 ton mech if you're rocking a 50 ton-er. It's just common sense.