125 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Lukoi, on 07 July 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

Hence where I wrote degrade vice cripple. It will not stop the meta AT ALL.

One less heatsink does nothing to a player who is already 600m away and hiding behind the hill he just fell behind.

The majority of ace poptarts are not relying on one JJ as it stands now anyway. They are addressing a problem that existed before the LAST JJ patch, not current meta.

It will make the build less optimized, less heatsinks coupled with JJ heat and you have to fire considerably slower. People on here say "Oh, it doesn't matter because you have plenty of time to hide behind cover" but frankly that is just not the case most of the time. If you have time to sit and wait, the enemy team is doing something wrong. When I jump snipe I am consistently getting into the 90% range because I shoot down range alot, and then when someone pushes.... Just saying, these changes WILL make meta builds less optimized. And honestly in the group queue now I have seen some impressive brawling zerg rushes so it may be better than you think with these changes.

[MischiefSC]

Make JJs kick you up quickly, make you fall quickly. Like, you know, jets. not gravity suspension pods.

[Lynx7725]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 July 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

It will make the build less optimized, less heatsinks coupled with JJ heat and you have to fire considerably slower. People on here say "Oh, it doesn't matter because you have plenty of time to hide behind cover" but frankly that is just not the case most of the time. If you have time to sit and wait, the enemy team is doing something wrong. When I jump snipe I am consistently getting into the 90% range because I shoot down range alot, and then when someone pushes.... Just saying, these changes WILL make meta builds less optimized. And honestly in the group queue now I have seen some impressive brawling zerg rushes so it may be better than you think with these changes.

Individually I think the changes doesn't affect poptarting that much, but collectively IMO it'll affect it enough that the less dedicated would look for an easier way out. Truly dedicated poptarters would just snort and carry on, and I'm fine with that, really.

The question is whether it'd affect jump brawling, which now that I reflect on it, I don't use that much nowadays. So.. may not be that big an issue for me.

[Corbon Zackery]

The problem right now is the -30 system. I dropped off a small bump of terrain and got -22. I took damage from a small fall of like 2 inches.

So I don't think the new system is working as intended. I believe that the values need to be reviewed as soon as possible. This is a new system so I not blaming or complaining I just think its not working as intended.

It just doesn't feel right for the gameplay.

Every small bump gives you -30 and damages your legs.

I glad that the changes to JJ jets are being made. I have one spider that right now can clear canyons with one jump jet. So hopefully the distance and height is brought back in line with a 1 hex jump distance.

Meaning if the canyon is one hex its self you need at least 2 JJ just to clear it distance wise.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 07 July 2014 - 09:09 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 July 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

It will make the build less optimized, less heatsinks coupled with JJ heat and you have to fire considerably slower. People on here say "Oh, it doesn't matter because you have plenty of time to hide behind cover" but frankly that is just not the case most of the time. If you have time to sit and wait, the enemy team is doing something wrong. When I jump snipe I am consistently getting into the 90% range because I shoot down range alot, and then when someone pushes.... Just saying, these changes WILL make meta builds less optimized. And honestly in the group queue now I have seen some impressive brawling zerg rushes so it may be better than you think with these changes.

Might but I doubt it.

Good, disciplined teams have always had a chance against poptart meta and this will help in that regard but for the general population of the game, it will do largely nothing in my expectation unless the changes are damned near punitive.

I wonder why it's not simply linear. If you can gain X-meters with your max JJ's of lets say five....then you get 20% of that with only one JJ.

[DaZur]

FupDup, on 07 July 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

The question is, how many jets will one need to reach the same height as we do now? (i.e. what will the "cutoff" point be).

Isn't the obvious answer "all of them"?

[John80sk]

Gas Guzzler, on 07 July 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:

It will make the build less optimized, less heatsinks coupled with JJ heat and you have to fire considerably slower. People on here say "Oh, it doesn't matter because you have plenty of time to hide behind cover" but frankly that is just not the case most of the time. If you have time to sit and wait, the enemy team is doing something wrong. When I jump snipe I am consistently getting into the 90% range because I shoot down range alot, and then when someone pushes.... Just saying, these changes WILL make meta builds less optimized. And honestly in the group queue now I have seen some impressive brawling zerg rushes so it may be better than you think with these changes.

Most of those brawling rush builds involve 1JJ brawlers. While poptarts will be less optimized, so will any build that was able to compete with poptarts.

[Pjwned]

On 1 hand I'm a little worried that my single jumpjet in my jenner or shadowhawks might not be as effective anymore, but on the other hand it should put a stop to the ridiculous jumpjet abuse that's been plaguing the game (from pop-tarts in particular) and at least make it so that such cheesy strategies require some real risk & sacrifice.

[Bishop Steiner]

John80sk, on 07 July 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

Most of those brawling rush builds involve 1JJ brawlers. While poptarts will be less optimized, so will any build that was able to compete with poptarts.

I actually knew more poptarts with 1-2 JJs then the better brawlers. A really good brawler always packed enough JJs to jump over a hill, dump fire then jump back out.

Not every fix is going to fix every problem. Single JJ builds are basically just one more old exploit being swept up, and fixed. It's funny how people act like if every fix coming in doesn't fix their perceived most important problem, it cant be good.

Does it stop poptarts on it's own? No. Still a good fix.

Nerfing poptarts will always fall back to affecting their aiming mechanic though, and THAT is what PGI needs to understand.

[DivideByZer0]

FupDup, on 07 July 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

Speaking of which, this game's JJ design is just bad from the very foundation. Jets in this game make you go up slow and steady like a goodyear blimp. People use them for poptarting because that's basically all they're capable of doing.

If they wanted jets used for things like terrain navigation or dodging rather than jumpsniping, they should have probably gone with the MWLL route. Jets there gave you a very fast and powerful "kick" that let you cover a lot of horizontal distance in a short time, rather than the slowmo ascent in MWO. They were a totally badass brawling tool in that mod, way more fun than blimp-style jets that PGI stole from MW4.

I agree. I always felt the MWLL jump jets were pretty close to canon, since TT rules showed JJ increases movement speed. The main advantage to JJ in MWO seems to be the ability to climb the myriad of unrealistic cliffs and canyons PGI designed into each map.
I say this all the time.. a big part of poptarting is that the wall-y terrain design lends nicely to it. Almost anyeone can poptart and not worry too much about recourse, due to the response time required to maneuver to flank a poptart-er. I'm not against adding heat to JJ, but I feel that the types of changes that are being proposed by PGI will affect light/medium mechs disproportionately in the end.
Funny, that this poptarting issue reaches a fever pitch right after the radar detection module comes out.. Yet somehow the answer is to nerf JJ?
I don't like constantly changing these fundamental game mechanics all the time, I thought we were out of beta?

Edited by DivideByZer0, 07 July 2014 - 09:31 PM.

[John80sk]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 July 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

I actually knew more poptarts with 1-2 JJs then the better brawlers. A really good brawler always packed enough JJs to jump over a hill, dump fire then jump back out.

Not every fix is going to fix every problem. Single JJ builds are basically just one more old exploit being swept up, and fixed. It's funny how people act like if every fix coming in doesn't fix their perceived most important problem, it cant be good.

Does it stop poptarts on it's own? No. Still a good fix.

Nerfing poptarts will always fall back to affecting their aiming mechanic though, and THAT is what PGI needs to understand.

I'm assuming he was talking about the recent "rush brawling" that has been practiced lately by larger groups.

I also disagree mostly with this statement that running a bunch of jumpjets was ever a good idea on a brawler for anything beyond the fun factor. 1-3 was all that was ever necessary, and was generally plenty to make it over the hills in canyon network and the like. That tonnage was better served throwing in a bigger engine, heatsinks, or more weapons.

EDIT: I do agree that it's silly that only 1JJ is necessary by the way, and that it's basically abusing a broken system. I'm merely stating that I don't think it will do anything to change the current meta.

Edited by John80sk, 07 July 2014 - 09:47 PM.

[Pjwned]

FupDup, on 07 July 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

Speaking of which, this game's JJ design is just bad from the very foundation. Jets in this game make you go up slow and steady like a goodyear blimp. People use them for poptarting because that's basically all they're capable of doing.

If they wanted jets used for things like terrain navigation or dodging rather than jumpsniping, they should have probably gone with the MWLL route. Jets there gave you a very fast and powerful "kick" that let you cover a lot of horizontal distance in a short time, rather than the slowmo ascent in MWO. They were a totally badass brawling tool in that mod, way more fun than blimp-style jets that PGI stole from MW4.

While that sounds pretty cool and a little reminiscent of skiing in Tribes, it seems like that would present a number of issues and possible balance concerns as far as top speed and engine ratings and such, so I can't say for sure I would love the idea.

[Clit Beastwood]

Do you all think that allowing mechs to climb steep angles again would, well, level the playing field a bit?

[FupDup]

Fierostetz, on 07 July 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Do you all think that allowing mechs to climb steep angles again would, well, level the playing field a bit?

Pun intended?

But yes, the current hill climbing system is indeed the biggest weakness of non-JJ mechs, particularly the heavier/slower chassis (because they get worse climbing angles than smaller mechs). While we probably shouldn't go back to what the game was prior to the climbing change, the current angle should probably be relaxed a little bit across the board. Maybe give like 5-10 degrees to each class or something. JJs would still retain their advantages, but would no longer be nearly mandatory for places like Mordor, Alpine, or Canyon.

[Clit Beastwood]

FupDup, on 07 July 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

Pun intended?

But yes, the current hill climbing system is indeed the biggest weakness of non-JJ mechs, particularly the heavier/slower chassis (because they get worse climbing angles than smaller mechs). While we probably shouldn't go back to what the game was prior to the climbing change, the current angle should probably be relaxed a little bit across the board. Maybe give like 5-10 degrees to each class or something. JJs would still retain their advantages, but would no longer be nearly mandatory for places like Mordor, Alpine, or Canyon.

Not intended, but once I typed it I figured... Let it ride...

[meteorol]

I don't understand why people are so damn defensive about JJs. "It will destroy jumpbrawling".
Well, right now mechs with JJ are just flat out better than mechs without them. Investing 1-2 tons gives them an advantage in brawling that a non JJ mech can't even imagine in its wildest dreams. Everyone just compares jumpsniping to jumpbrawling without mentioning that jumpbrawling is alot better than "normal" brawling in every single way while only costing 1-2 tons.

Edited by meteorol, 07 July 2014 - 10:11 PM.

[kapusta11]

All these blind nerfs are just frustrating. Reduce the fu***** thrust, same thing you did to Highlander, and be done with it.

[Lindonius]

YueFei, on 07 July 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

The problem with JJs is that it doesn't adhere to physics.

Regardless of how many JJs you put, the moment you tap spacebar, you instantaneously achieve a high ascent speed.

JJs need to accelerate you upward starting from an ascent speed of 0.

And the more JJs you put, the faster that acceleration.

Example: you strap 1 JJ on. You accelerate at 1 meter/sec^2. Currently you reach roughly 2 meter/sec instantly. With this change, 1 JJ will require you to burn the jets for 2 seconds to reach the same altitude that you were able to reach in 1 second with the old JJ implementation.

This would require programming. Don't make me say PGI.

And programming in the same sentence.

[XX Sulla XX]

One thing I know are jump brawlers are always the step child. So just plan for that

[Stonefalcon]

The fix is so simple, simply make it so only mechs up to a particular weight can actually fire their weapons while airborne. Say 40 tons max so anything up to a Cicada's weight can poptart.

Also note I said airborne and not Jump jetting, this way people can't JJ up then shoot while falling and you also cannot fire while falling off a ledge or similar situation.

JJ's are purely a manoeuvring and scouting tool, they were never intended to be used in the current Meta.

or

PGI adds an energy management tool to MWO. The mech's engine generates a specific amount of energy for their mech that replenishes over a short duration. Short enough a duration that people can fight as usual but as soon as those JJ's ignite the energy gets sucked up so fast poptarts wouldn't be able to shoot but at the same time this type of system supports people who use JJ's for manoeuvring during scouting or brawling who wouldn't necessarily need to shoot during those actions.