510 replies to this topic

[Hammerhai]

Eventually, it boils down to this: Vote with your feet. As for me, Clan Mechs were the last cash grab I let myself in for. Design here can be summed up as a camel that wanted to be a race horse, but got designed by Paul and his committee, whoever they may be.

If CW is half the design kludge UI 2.0 turned out to be, I am gone.
Not tanklike enough - ffs. Nerf torso twist rate while you are at it. Do the job properly. 3rd person view because of a 12 year old and hidden backers all over again.

[Heffay]

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

The problem with pinpoint damage and jump-sniping are intertwined with each other, dude. Stop deflecting the argument, and actually address it.

You need to stop arguing a point nobody is making. Pinpoint damage is a completely separate issue. These changes are to change the effectiveness of jump jets, because they *aren't* just useful for pop-tarting. Any mech with JJ is better off right now, because it's a low risk high reward method of play at any range. This will make them more dynamic and require more skill to use effectively, which is good for balance. Which is good for the game.

You want jump sniping eliminated. I prefer a robust, complex game with many tactical methods to damage your opponent. Not just one way to play. W+1 all day/all night, right?

[ReXspec]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

That's just rhetoric, and pretty poor analogies. Jump sniping has existed in every single Mechwarrior ever released, so for you to say that it isn't Mechwarrior to have jumpsniping is disingenuous at best.

So, an argument is "rhetoric" and not valid because you say it is?

Please stop being absurd and actually address the points made. If you don't like the points I make, explain why. Making vague statements like "That's just rhetoric, and pretty poor analogies," is not a rebuttal. It's an insulting dismissal.

[Steinkrieg]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Umm... because you have to balance everything, otherwise the game becomes one dimensional. The tactic is valid, but it can't be the only thing that works, or the most effective in pretty much every scenario.

You're creating a false duality: either it's ok as is, or it needs to be removed. In reality it's a spectrum from being too powerful to being completely useless, and finding that happy middle ground is part of what these changes are intended to do.

If there is nothing wrong with it, it is already balanced. There is no happy middle ground. Either it's ok as it is, or the costs become too great. JJ have already been nerfed hard a few times already. If current state isn't balanced, then nothing will be.

[Heffay]

ReXspec, on 09 July 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

So, an argument is "rhetoric" and not valid because you say it is?

Please stop being absurd and actually address the points made. If you don't like the points I make, explain why. Making vague statements like "That's just rhetoric, and pretty poor analogies," is not a rebuttal. It's an insulting dismissal.

No, talking about IEDs and AT-4s is rhetoric. You're making an appeal to authority ("listen to me as I was military and therefore know about giant stompy space robots").

Guess what? I was military too, but only an O-4 so I'm not smart enough to pretend I know giant stompy space robots like you.

Steinkrieg, on 09 July 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

If there is nothing wrong with it, it is already balanced. There is no happy middle ground. Either it's ok as it is, or the costs become too great. JJ have already been nerfed hard a few times already. If current state isn't balanced, then nothing will be.

No, there is nothing wrong with the tactic. It still needs to be balanced. And more false dualities. This isn't either or, and balance is a continual process.

[Steinkrieg]

It is currently balanced as is. I had to buy a friggin module to use them so I don't vomit. If that's not balanced, then nothing is.

[ReXspec]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

You need to stop arguing a point nobody is making. Pinpoint damage is a completely separate issue.

No they're not.

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

These changes are to change the effectiveness of jump jets, because they *aren't* just useful for pop-tarting. Any mech with JJ is better off right now, because it's a low risk high reward method of play at any range. This will make them more dynamic and require more skill to use effectively, which is good for balance. Which is good for the game.

A single playstyle that is free of risk, counter, or random variables dominating a simulation like this is NOT good for the game. It is cancerous and doesn't breed creativity.

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

You want jump sniping eliminated.

I want jump-sniping to be made harder; more realistic like it is supposed to be.

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

I prefer a robust, complex game with many tactical methods to damage your opponent. Not just one way to play. W+1 all day/all night, right?

Defaulting to a single method of gameplay is not "robust" or "complex" it is boring and cancerous.

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

No, talking about IEDs and AT-4s is rhetoric. You're making an appeal to authority ("listen to me as I was military and therefore know about giant stompy space robots").

Guess what? I was military too, but only an O-4 so I'm not smart enough to pretend I know giant stompy space robots like you.

I was making an analogy on using absurd ideas on the battlefield, "sir." Since Mechwarrior advertises itself as a mech combat, battlefield simulator, jump-sniping absolutely should be considered absurd on the same level as the ideas I gave because jump-sniping is supposed to very difficult--if not nearly impossible.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 02:22 PM.

[Heffay]

See, you continue to argue points no one is making. Jump sniping should be a legitimate tactic that is as difficult to pull off as it is effective. These changes are part of making that happen. These changes also address other issues that fixing pinpoint damage doesn't deal with.

You want zero jump sniping and therefor refuse to accept compromises that help balance it. Unfortunately for you, PGI agrees with me. And it's also better for the game. It becomes more dynamic and fun this way.

[Void Angel]

WarHippy, on 09 July 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

Well that depends on where you look. There are instances of mechs in the books doing all kinds of impressive maneuvers including using jump jets and then landing into a roll and springing back onto their feat avoiding fire. The mechs were often described being more nimble than you are making them out to be. That being said Heavy Gear is awesome as well.

Heh; I just got done discussing that with someone else.

[ReXspec]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

See, you continue to argue points no one is making. Jump sniping should be a legitimate tactic that is as difficult to pull off as it is effective. These changes are part of making that happen. These changes also address other issues that fixing pinpoint damage doesn't deal with.

"That no one is making?" Do you really want me to pull demographics now in how many people in the game that think the current "meta" is complete bull[scrap]? Because I'm pretty sure that most everyone can agree that the current "meta" is not only impossible by Battletech standards, but it is bull[scrap]. Jump-sniping should be made more difficult as it is in TT. At present, however, it's not. And you could probably train a newbie in a few minutes on how to do well in a PPC/AC meta-mech and he would probably do fairly decently. Give him a few weeks and he'll probably be good enough for the competitive leagues whereas the ground-pounders, brawlers, hill-humpers, skirmishers, and flankers will struggle to even come close to having the same ELO as Mr. Newbie-meta-chucklenuts.

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

You want zero jump sniping and therefor refuse to accept compromises that help balance it. Unfortunately for you, PGI agrees with me. And it's also better for the game. It becomes more dynamic and fun this way.

Do you intentionally block out what you don't want to see? Or is that a personal issue? I gave suggestions in this post on how to balance jump-sniping, and bring it back down a level playing field to other playstyles. I'm going to say this once more, and I'm NOT going to say it again: I want jump-sniping to be made harder and made about as difficult as it is on TT. That WILL NOT happen by removing the many things that can go wrong (i.e. the random variables) that can happen while jump sniping.

Jump sniping SHOULD be a difficult maneuver to pull off. One where your 'mech NEEDS to be equipped with improved jump jets, a targeting computer and reinforced legs to pull off--let alone pull off in the same way that meta-pilots do now.

This manuever SHOULD NOT be possible with some joker who has a highlander, two PPCs, two AC/5s, and a single jump-jet. That is cartoonishly absurd. That is [scrap]ing gundam physics and technology ("Gundamwarrior Online").

If P.G.I. is thinking this is strategy is somehow legitimate with the current physics and equipment they have set up now, then they shouldn't use the "Mechwarrior" name in their game.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 02:50 PM.

[ArchSight]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Hasn't jump sniping been in every previous iteration of Mechwarrior games? Heck, isn't this pretty much the only Mechwarrior game that is attempting to create some balance around it as well??

And yes, it existed in TT too; it was just challenging to pull off and required a lot of luck. Well, we can take the RNG out of it to make it a skill based tactic (which is good), and balance it so that matches don't devolve into trench warfare.

Jump sniping helped to kill the game off in MW4. MW4 vengeance started out with mechs brawling each other in endless games of mechs trying to manuever around their opponents and do as much damage as possible before they go down. As the MW4 series went by Jump sniping was the only thing that people were doing online and No heat/Unlimited ammo servers. MW4 killed the simulation part of MW and paved way for arcady mech assault to come. It was never balanced back than.

Saddly, jump sniping is back and it's being used excessively like it was before. More player's are learning how to do it and getting used to the current balance of the game that favors it to win. It's always on a person's mind where is the jump snipers because they are always a significant problem in every match that has a player running one. The game turns into poptart online the higher the elo you get. Thats sad it's dominating the most of a skilled player's time. When is this balance pass coming to stop poptarting from being the most dominate tactic to use? Why isn't it happening? How would it be possible to balance it? Can we even agree on a single method to do so? Does it require doing more than one way to balance it? Do player's want to play with what jump sniping would be balanced with?

I've seen many threads with many different ideas on how to balance pop tarting that don't agree on a way to do it. Too many different idea's to support but all have an affect on jump sniping. The affect though is sometimes small that it wouldn't matter or big that it will affect gameplay in other tactics. What ever it is, it should be in the known future. The stale game play of many pop tarts will sooner or later reach us all from the higher elo.

[Heffay]

So let me get this straight:

You want to balance jump sniping by requiring improved JJs, gyros and reinforced legs despite there being no justification for this in lore, tabletop or past Mechwarrior titles just because you can't rocket jump with an AT-4 in real life?

I think we are done here.

[Void Angel]

Respec, the rulebooks (and flavor text, and novels) for tabletop battletech cannot be a manual for how MWO is "supposed to be." It's a different format of game - we're playing a first-person format, and thus want to aim our guns by our ownselves. Since this eliminates the RNG-balancing method used by BattleTech, the entire web of interconnected rules that make up the game balance get pulled awry.

As just one of a dizzying array of examples, jump jet use had target modifiers as well as attacker modifiers associated with it - you could nearly always find a path that would let you get a better target modifier than just running through the terrain. But those kind of statistical target modifiers cannot exist in MWO, so other parts of the balance system have to be tweaked - heat and jump height, for instance.

Because of the differences in format, the tabletop rulebooks are useful only as a guide to the feel of the genre, and as an occasional starting point for design ideas on the developer level - which is how PGI has used them throughout the development process. It's important to maintain the feel of the Battletech universe, but using the tabletop rules as a primary justification for a design decision in MWO is a little like signing a suicide pact for someone you've never met - romantic, perhaps, but I'm not sure it's that helpful.

PS: I can state with certainty from my own experience in competitive leagues (and running into their teams during normal 12-mans) that jump sniping at that level is much harder than some may make it out to be. That being said, the tactic is currently too strong for its commitment in tonnage and drawbacks - which is what PGI is addressing with this change.

It's gonna be ok, guys. It's gonna be ok.

Edited by Void Angel, 09 July 2014 - 03:04 PM.

[ReXspec]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

So let me get this straight:

You want to balance jump sniping by requiring improved JJs, gyros and reinforced legs despite there being no justification for this in lore, tabletop or past Mechwarrior titles...

Actually, the proposal I made was in keeping with Battletech standards.

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

just because you can't rocket jump with an AT-4 in real life?

I think we are done here.

That is the most hilarious non-sequitr I've ever seen.

For an O-4 you are exceedingly thick.

But I'll explain this to you again:

I made that analogy because I was comparing absurd tactics in the battletech universe (i.e. jump sniping) with absurd tactics that could be used in real life (i.e. rocket jumping with an AT-4).

The overriding point was that neither tactic should be used because they are absurd/difficult to pull off.

If you didn't catch that point the first time, then that is sad.

With that said, see ya later, "sir."

Enjoy your meta-build.

[Void Angel]

PPS: Heffay, Respec, I can tell just from skimming your last few posts on this page that you are both arguing nearly the same thing, while ending up misstating your opponents' viewpoint as you try for a "logical kill." Take a step back, take a deep breath, and take some aspirin for your blood pressure.

[ReXspec]

Void Angel, on 09 July 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Respec, the rulebooks (and flavor text, and novels) for tabletop battletech cannot be a manual for how MWO is "supposed to be." It's a different format of game - we're playing a first-person format, and thus want to aim our guns by our ownselves. Since this eliminates the RNG-balancing method used by BattleTech, the entire web of interconnected rules that make up the game balance get pulled awry.

As just one of a dizzying array of examples, jump jet use had target modifiers as well as attacker modifiers associated with it - you could nearly always find a path that would let you get a better target modifier than just running through the terrain. But those kind of statistical target modifiers cannot exist in MWO, so other parts of the balance system have to be tweaked - heat and jump height, for instance.

Because of the differences in format, the tabletop rulebooks are useful only as a guide to the feel of the genre, and as an occasional starting point for design ideas on the developer level - which is how PGI has used them throughout the development process. It's important to maintain the feel of the Battletech universe, but using the tabletop rules as a primary justification for a design decision in MWO is a little like signing a suicide pact for someone you've never met - romantic, perhaps, but I'm not sure it's that helpful.

PS: I can state with certainty from my own experience in competitive leagues (and running into their teams during normal 12-mans) that jump sniping at that level is much harder than some may make it out to be. That being said, the tactic is currently too strong for its commitment in tonnage and drawbacks - which is what PGI is addressing with this change.

It's gonna be ok, guys. It's gonna be ok.

Here is the thing though, Void. Whether this is in a FPS format, or TT format, what people like Heffay are essentially suggesting is that you entirely remove random variables from shooting and make this game point-and-click. Which, if the game is advertising itself as a simulator, is simply absurd--not to mention it's false advertising, and should not be associated with the Mechwarrior name if that is the case.

This most recent "rework" to jump jets is only a half-step in the right direction. It still doesn't make sense. As I said before, and as I quoted in a previous post, "(this system) is so far removed from actual Battletech, it may as well be Gundam."

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 03:16 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Can we get an example of what this will mean for a current jump jet mech vs the new system with say 4 or 5 jump jets? And maybe more information on how the engine effects thrust.

[Joseph Mallan]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Hasn't jump sniping been in every previous iteration of Mechwarrior games? Heck, isn't this pretty much the only Mechwarrior game that is attempting to create some balance around it as well??

And yes, it existed in TT too; it was just challenging to pull off and required a lot of luck. Well, we can take the RNG out of it to make it a skill based tactic (which is good), and balance it so that matches don't devolve into trench warfare.

Nope. It was not a part of the Pen and Paper MechWarrior game... You did say EVERY MechWarrior game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Heffay, on 09 July 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

So let me get this straight:

You want to balance jump sniping by requiring improved JJs, gyros and reinforced legs despite there being no justification for this in lore, tabletop or past Mechwarrior titles just because you can't rocket jump with an AT-4 in real life?

I think we are done here.

The Battletech Mechanics Are you Jump, Then land, then fire from your position landed in. Fluff and Novels are not the rules of the game it is the fiction, So which do you want, Cause you either have Zero pop tarting (TT) or only like 5 players who can Jump and shoot (Canon).

[ReXspec]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 July 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

The Battletech Mechanics Are you Jump, Then land, then fire from your position landed in. Fluff and Novels are not the rules of the game it is the fiction, So which do you want, Cause you either have Zero pop tarting (TT) or only like 5 'mechs that can Jump and shoot (Canon).

Fixed that for ya, Joe.

Edited by ReXspec, 09 July 2014 - 03:23 PM.