510 replies to this topic

[SgtMagor]

yup yup, the Victor and Highlander known for their unique skills using jump jets can't really do the things they were designed to do!, it would be impossible for a Highlander to do a DFA while brawling with a mech because it hovers for a few seconds before it can achieve any lift from the jets. the Victor nerfs have been rehashed so many times its not worth mentioning anymore!

Edited by SgtMagor, 16 July 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

JJ changes are to heavy handed and gimp the hell out of JJ's.

[P e n u m b r a]

This will keep happening when poor players will label what works "cheese" or "cheap" the more the devs listen to the vocal majority (the average player) the more nerfs to viable ways to play the game will happen, shifting balance to overpowering something else and in turn that will be nerfed. There will always be a meta perfect weapon balance is impossible look at any FPS game there is always a select few weapons that are just the strongest for given situation, be careful what you wish for.

[Jayson Youngblood]

FupDup, on 08 July 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Lol @ taking 8 jets to give twice the height of 1 jet.

I don't understand. Why can't we just make 1 jump jet do 1/8 of the thrust of 8 jump jets instead of 1 jump jet doing half the thrust of 8 jump jets? I just don't get it.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

L e 0, on 16 July 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

This will keep happening when poor players will label what works "cheese" or "cheap" the more the devs listen to the vocal majority (the average player) the more nerfs to viable ways to play the game will happen, shifting balance to overpowering something else and in turn that will be nerfed. There will always be a meta perfect weapon balance is impossible look at any FPS game there is always a select few weapons that are just the strongest for given situation, be careful what you wish for.

The problem right now (for well more than a year, actually) is that there are 2, (or 3, or 4, depending on how you count them) weapon and equipment combinations that are just the strongest for almost every situation (PPC+Gauss+JJ, PPC+AC/5+JJ), not just a given situation. All the new 'mechs and maps in the world won't help keep the game fresh, fun, and interesting if we must use them the same way in order to be competitive. If they only worked well in certain situations, it wouldn't be a problem.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 17 July 2014 - 02:59 PM.

[Void Angel]

Cimarb, on 16 July 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

The Highlander was DESIGNED to make Death From Above attacks. It should be the pinnacle of jump jet assaults, able to AT LEAST jump higher than any other mech's height, just to be able to complete its designed function! Instead, it has been a slightly more maneuverable Atlas/Banshee for a long time now. It is quite sad.

While I support PGI trying to balance jump sniping with other playstyles, the Highlander always seems to get the short end of the stick on these changes, even after it had already been nerfed into obsolescence and made I to a second-line chassis by the very existence of the Victor, which has escaped nearly every one of these attempted nerfs.

I think they should make the Highlander able to jump at least it's own height, but make it take twice as long to do so. In other words, instead of taking two seconds to reach 10m in vertical height, make it take 4 seconds to reach 20m in vertical height. That way, you can eclipse the sun for a good second or two before finally falling down upon your enemies soon-to-be-smashed face...

While you do that, make the Victor's jump jets work in a more horizontal manner, propelling them forward more than up. That will prevent it from jump sniping, but give it the mobility it is supposed to have. Maybe only 6m in vertical height at max, but propel it forward 20m without slowing.

No, it was designed in Tabletop with Death from Above in mind - not quite the same thing.

[Void Angel]

L e 0, on 16 July 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

This will keep happening when poor players will label what works "cheese" or "cheap" the more the devs listen to the vocal majority (the average player) the more nerfs to viable ways to play the game will happen, shifting balance to overpowering something else and in turn that will be nerfed. There will always be a meta perfect weapon balance is impossible look at any FPS game there is always a select few weapons that are just the strongest for given situation, be careful what you wish for.

I like fiction, too, but I draw the line at that urban legend. Games are never developed as a democracy. Developers listen to their players, but they make their decisions based in internal testing and design principles. Every time any feature of any MMO I've ever played has been nerfed, people have always come out loudly pontificating that "Shamans cried, so Mages got the nerf bat again," or some similar nonsense - and they've always been culpably wrong.

[Cimarb]

Void Angel, on 16 July 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

No, it was designed in Tabletop with Death from Above in mind - not quite the same thing.

Semantics, I guess, but it was more than just "in mind"...

Sarna said:

However it was during the design's initial trial runs that pilots began using these 'Mechs in what would infamously become known as the "Highlander Burial". Leaping into the air and landing directly on their enemy, a Highlander could literally drive a light 'Mech into the ground. So successful was this maneuver that the design team re-engineered the legs to withstand repeated death-from-above attacks and turned what had been a desperation move into an art form, giving Highlander pilots an additional psychological edge. Source: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Highlander

So, while the initial plans may not have been specifically made for that purpose in mind, it had not even been into full production before it started being used that way, and was redesigned soon after specifically to accommodate that purpose.

[Koniving]

Cimarb, on 16 July 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

Semantics, I guess, but it was more than just "in mind"...


So, while the initial plans may not have been specifically made for that purpose in mind, it had not even been into full production before it started being used that way, and was redesigned soon after specifically to accommodate that purpose.

To note, though, I've seen what happens when you fail those landings.

The result of two failed Death From Above attacks in succession included:
One destroyed hand actuator.
One broken Lower Arm Actuator.
One destroyed AC/10.
47 points of armor lost from various locations.
Broken foot actuator (second attempt).
One disabled lower leg actuator (from second attempt).

Subsequent attempt to stand knocked out the pilot.
Pilot executed while down.

Repairs took 5 months, 3 weeks, and 6 days. (Partially due to difficulties with the foot actuator; one more failed roll would have resulted in being forced to scrap the mech from the mechanics giving up on it).

I should note the pilot was a 7/7, so basically a "new" pilot but not cadet-green. (Lower numbers = better).

[TheMadTypist]

I got to try the patch for a few hours today, and I think you may have missed the mark with the JJ's.

First off I dropped in what i figured would be the hardest hit, the Highlander. I've got one patched together into a SRM brawler. It couldn't do much in the way of jumping, but I figured that was because I only had 2 JJ's on it. For what it could do, though, I feel like I might as well pull those off now, because I couldn't find any use for them either purely maneuvering or in close combat. They weren't helpful in climbing hills, or hopping onto anything, and mainly seemed to serve to kill my momentum when I fell and not much else. I thought to myself, alright, so that's an assault without full JJ's, it makes sense.

But then I also dropped for a match in the Thunderbolt with JJ's, which I have strapped with the full complement. Unfortunately, that's only four. It was, more or less, the same story, with the added benefit that I could hop onto structures that were about 2/3's my height, but they still didn't seem to have any purpose beyond softening falls, performing too slowly and doing too little to be worth triggering while maneuvering the field, and especially in combat. I could walk around buildings faster than I could hop over them. I don't really see a purpose to this variant now, it can't jump into or out of combat, and has less firepower than its siblings. Gone was the maneuverable skirmisher of yesterday, replaced by a lackluster hulk that felt less like a 'mech and more like a tumbling rock with guns.

Then I tried a quickdraw-k5, which I re-modified to have all five jumpjets. I got noticeable height at last, but only at the cost of full fuel and leg damage. I engaged a lone Dire Wolf, and to my horror found that between us it was the more agile one. I attempted to jump away over a short rise, ran out of JJ fuel, and upon landing discovered it was faster for me to walk over the hill than it was to jet.

I never noticed any issues with heat regarding the JJ's, it was solely the maneuverability (or lack thereof) that I take issue with. I really think you pushed it too far in the other direction. The 'mechs that have design deficiencies to compensate for their jump capability, like the thud-SE and the quickdraw, have taken a major pummeling in their effectiveness at just moving around the battlefield. I believe you stated the intent was to render the JJ's primarily useful only for maneuvering, and not in combat, but at the moment I don't think they have any value as a maneuvering tool. I think if I wanted to move around the battlefield more fluidly I should dump the jets and put that tonnage into the engine instead. Even when loading lots of them it seems like the main purpose is safely transitioning from higher points to lower ones (which can be done just fine with only one), or planting the whole front of my 'mech against a short canyon wall and slowly facegrinding my way up.

It's not a fun tool anymore. I agree that 'mechs without JJ's were less competitive than those that had them, but I think that has more to do with the lackluster hill climb mechanic and restrictive map design than it did with JJ's being out of line (with the exception of the popsniping that dominated the upper levels, though I feel all this change does is limit the locations on the maps where those players will be willing to engage from now). As it is, the "Agile" heavies are now less agile than their groundbound cousins, even when those cousins are of higher weight and the jumpers are running full jet tonnage. And that's not to mention the impact on the flavor of the game, do you really feel that you could honestly introduce 'mechs like Grasshopper with things the way they are now? With only two jump jets, what use would they have beyond mere parachuting?

I don't think this is a positive gameplay change, making the game more static instead of less does not play to this game's strengths and pushes combat to even longer ranges. I really think it would have been a better move to improve the handling and hill climbing abilities of the groundpounders, or at least their sensation of momentum on hitting a slope, than to cut out the gameplay aspects of jumpjets.

[pwnface]

I believe the jump jets nerfs are a step in the direction but too big of a step. I'd like to see additional jump jet heat used more than nerfing thrust values to create balance.

[Yokomohoyo]

What is up with all the negative feedback? What did you guys expect? They clearly explained they were making a jump jet nerf which translates into making jump jets useless. So all I can say is that with the new patch everything went as expected.

When they nerfed ACs I sold all my medium mechs except for the Centurion CN9-A(C) (champion mech has sentimental value) which I dismantled and haven’t used since then because the main use of my medium mechs was to harass with the superior range of the AC/2 and keep out of the range of enemy fire with their speed. Medium mechs can’t outrun the light mechs or outgun the heavier mechs. My medium mechs were useful at harassing with an AC/2 to keep the enemy mechs distracted until my teammates could take them out because it is almost impossible to take anything out by yourself with an AC/2. The sale of my medium mechs and some mechabay purchases left me with 17 empty mechbays, 30K+ XP, 50K+ c-bills waiting for the clan mechs so I can buy a Summoner. With the current jump jet nerf I will probably have 1 extra mechbay free for the sale if my Quickdraw and no desire to buy a Summoner. To be realistic I probably haven’t played the game in a month but it is not for lack of trying, it is because of the absurdly long waiting time created by the Matchmaker that have made me rage quit every time I wanted to play. Even with the jump jet nerf I would probably play the game if I didn’t have to wait for a game. My point is that nerfs do not bring new players in, they can only make existing players leave if they dislike the nerf. What brings new players in is innovation which this game desperately needs. Nerfs are the root of all evil because it is the easiest way to make changes in a game so it is what game designers rely upon instead of using innovation.

Edited by Yokomohoyo, 17 July 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[Blissful Negligence]

This may have already been covered earlier, I just don't want to read through 20 pages of comments. I personally feel that this change to jump jets is going to hurt the medium class in particular. Mediums are tough enough to use as it is, they are so squishy, now you are taking one of the key components for survival away for medium pilots - mobility. If there was less of an impact on JJ for mediums and lights, that may be the added incentive PGI is looking for to get more people to pilot the smaller classes.

[Cimarb]

SLICKNIFTY, on 17 July 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

the added incentive PGI is looking for to get more people to pilot the smaller classes.

Proper role rewards for them would be what would do that. Mobility by itself will not.

[OznerpaG]

i'm thinking maybe PGI is taking the wrong approach to JJ - they are making each additional JJ = additional lift


what it should be is ALL JJ should give the exact same amount of lift, but more JJ = more fuel to get more burn time and therefore more height

for example:

1 JJ gives 2 seconds of burn time - about good enough to softly pad a landing when jumping off a hill

2 JJ gives 4 seconds of burn time - helps get up hills, but not enough to give a lot of height

3 JJ gives 6 seconds of burn time - now we should start getting decent height with leftover to pad the landing

4 JJ gives 8 seconds of burn time, etc

of course numbers might have to be adjusted with testing, and maybe light mechs might get slightly more burn time with each JJ while assault mechs would get slightly less, but i think overall adjusting burn time makes more sense and is a lot less complicated than studying charts and graphs to figure out all the fancy math lol

Edited by JagdFlanker, 17 July 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I am okay with most of the changes, but with 8 tons of Jump Jets equipped, the Highlander should have stronger thrust frankly, its comparable with Mech's with less than half the weight of Jump Jets while the Mech itself is less then twice has heavy.

[Bill Shakespear]

Hey guys. Unfortunately, I think the changes went a little too far.

Even in a medium mech with 5 jump jets, it is a struggle to jump from a low level to an upper level in Canyon Network. I think a mech of any weight running 4 or 5 jets should be able to make that jump relatively easily with a little fuel to spare to cushion the landing.

As it stands now, you have to get a long running start to account for the super-slow ascent speed (so you can cover more distance before running out of fuel), and time the jump perfectly. Otherwise you will either run out of fuel and face-plant into the side of the canyon, or just clip the top of the canyon with the mech's legs and not quite make it. It feels very cumbersome.

Jump jets should offer a huge mobility advantage. We should pay for it in tonnage, heat, and weapon accuracy. Right now I feel we are only paying the tonnage and half the accuracy. Boost the heat generated significantly. Even with the latest changes it seems negligible. Then make it so the reticle wobbles any time the mech is in the air, not just during the jump jet burn. (I believe this has been suggested before and it is an excellent idea!).

[Praehotec8]

This is a sticky situation. On one hand, it's sad to see mechs like the Jester with only 2 JJs having trouble jumping to an eye level height, and the speed at which highlanders jump (distance seems okay) is painfully slow.

On the other hand, what else is the answer to the fact that anyone who could would take 1-2 JJs on their mech, as they provided huge bonus with little investment?

It doesn't seem fair that a player who spent only 2 tons and took only half of their mech's JJ complement should be able to jump (nearly) as high as a player who took all 4/5/6 jets. Nor should taking JJs be a no-brainer, there should be a reason to debate taking them vs. using the tonnage/crits for other things.

I wish JJs worked differently in this game than they do (see MW:LL), but barring that, I am afraid this might be the only practical solution. I do think the highlander should get just a tad faster jump acceleration, as right now DFA wouldn't be possible. The height they get with 3 JJs should be adequate to clear a single mech's height, as four on the 733C allows one to reach the upper base from lower city in one jump. Two on the Jester allow its feet to kick a cataphract in the face, but not to jump over it.

[Cimarb]

JagdFlanker, on 17 July 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

i'm thinking maybe PGI is taking the wrong approach to JJ - they are making each additional JJ = additional lift

what it should be is ALL JJ should give the exact same amount of lift, but more JJ = more fuel to get more burn time and therefore more height

for example:

1 JJ gives 2 seconds of burn time - about good enough to softly pad a landing when jumping off a hill

2 JJ gives 4 seconds of burn time - helps get up hills, but not enough to give a lot of height

3 JJ gives 6 seconds of burn time - now we should start getting decent height with leftover to pad the landing

4 JJ gives 8 seconds of burn time, etc

of course numbers might have to be adjusted with testing, and maybe light mechs might get slightly more burn time with each JJ while assault mechs would get slightly less, but i think overall adjusting burn time makes more sense and is a lot less complicated than studying charts and graphs to figure out all the fancy math lol

Actually, it should be pretty much the opposite, in a way. Jump jets, at least in an atmosphere, "superheat air" with "an electron beam...inside a magnetically shielded reaction chamber...and expels the expanding gases through nozzles". The only time an alternate fuel is needed is in a vacuum, which may be the case in HPG Manifold. Otherwise, the amount of fuel is effectively unlimited and JJs are supposed to be limited by heat production.

In other words, every mech has unlimited fuel (air), but the jets should increase heat enough for it to be a limiter in itself. The number of jets then determines HOW QUICKLY the mech can produce thrust, effectively speeding up the jump, which indirectly increases the amount of distance covered. A mech with one jet should creep, while a mech with 12 jets should absolutely rocket into the air. The amount of height/distance covered would be the same for both, but while it would take five seconds to cover 30m with 1 JJ, that same mech could cover 360m in that same time with 12 JJs. Numbers for illustration purposes only, of course.

[XphR]

Cimarb, on 17 July 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Actually, it should be pretty much the opposite, in a way. Jump jets, at least in an atmosphere, "superheat air" with "an electron beam...inside a magnetically shielded reaction chamber...and expels the expanding gases through nozzles". The only time an alternate fuel is needed is in a vacuum, which may be the case in HPG Manifold. Otherwise, the amount of fuel is effectively unlimited and JJs are supposed to be limited by heat production.

In other words, every mech has unlimited fuel (air), but the jets should increase heat enough for it to be a limiter in itself. The number of jets then determines HOW QUICKLY the mech can produce thrust, effectively speeding up the jump, which indirectly increases the amount of distance covered. A mech with one jet should creep, while a mech with 12 jets should absolutely rocket into the air. The amount of height/distance covered would be the same for both, but while it would take five seconds to cover 30m with 1 JJ, that same mech could cover 360m in that same time with 12 JJs. Numbers for illustration purposes only, of course.

I would happily take this with a spoon full of extremely hindered JJs on HPG and other low/no atmosphere maps. Along with the fact that at higher speeds you would be at more risk of momentum related damage(and I pray to rust, one day again knock downs).