510 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

XphR, on 17 July 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

I would happily take this with a spoon full of extremely hindered JJs on HPG and other low/no atmosphere maps. Along with the fact that at higher speeds you would be at more risk of momentum related damage(and I pray to rust, one day again knock downs).

Completely agree...

[pwnface]

I'm okay with PGI making less jumpjets = less thrust, but they hampered the total lift each jump jet provides which kind of sucks. 1 or 2 jump jets on a mech shouldn't make it fly in the air, but they barely even get off the ground now. I'd like to see the altitude possible with the old jump jets but climbing at a slower rate per jump jet.

[Jabilo]

So jump jets are now useless and no fun.

Nerfed to hell because you can find no other way to try to balance jump sniping - which you maintain is not a problem that needs to be fixed (bizarre) yet is the only problem the community has with jets.

So this was pretty much the worst, least imaginative way you could address the issue and another tactical option goes out of the window.

There are so many ways you could have addressed jets.

Hell I would rather have NO firing while jumping if it meant I could retain the fun and mobility of jets.

What is interesting is that many top players maintain they can jump snipe with ease (no change), yet every light loving, jump brawling, big air smiling NON meta player who loves jets is disappointed you sucked some of the fun out of the game.

Edit: Ok, maybe a touch of hyperbole but lets be a bit more rational.

It is difficult to perform basic manoeuvres such as jumping up a ledge or across a chasm. Jets provide not enough vertical thrust so it is like riding a hoverboard (ridiculous).

I think you have taken the wrong path, Give jets MORE thrust, MORE fuel. Let us manoeuvre in the air with directional thrusters.

However make jets generate MORE heat and have serious consequences for firing heavy weapons airborne.

Lets have the exciting tactical jets from the lore and fiction.

What we have now is anaemic jets that are less fun and punish all the wrong people. Jump snipers: business as usual. Those of us who always took max jets for manoeuvrability: screwed.

I love you guys but I think you dropped the ball. Jets need a fresh look!

Edited by Jabilo, 17 July 2014 - 02:10 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Praehotec8, on 17 July 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

On the other hand, what else is the answer to the fact that anyone who could would take 1-2 JJs on their mech, as they provided huge bonus with little investment?

Pretty easy, actually. The old JJ system was something like:

1 jet = 5 meters (initial lift-off) + 3 meters thrust -> 8 meters total height
2 jets = 5 meters + 6 meters thrust (3m per jet x 2 jets) -> 11 meters total height
...
5 jets = 5 meters + 15 meters thrust (3m per jet x 5 jets) -> 20 meters total height

The numbers are illustrative, not actual. The main thing to notice is the 5-meter initial lift-off. Again, these numbers are just to show what was going on - I don't know what the actual height of the initial lift-off was, but it doesn't matter here.

The point is, as soon as you had even one jump jet, your mech would leap into the air with just a slight feathering of the space bar. This was a physical leap, not a blast from your jets; jet thrust was added on top of the initial lift-off. So even one jet gave you this. Two jets would NOT double your total possible jump height - it would only marginally increase it, because the initial lift-off height remained identical, and only the added value of JJ thrust doubled.

So, your actual increase in height was well under double. Two jets did not give twice the height of one, six did not give twice the height of three, etc. Not even close. Every jump jet you added on actually gave less of a height advantage, in terms of percentage gained, than the one prior to it. This is the whole reason that one jet was the most effective addition, closely followed by two. Three was OK. Once you got to four, there was hardly ever any reason to add more. The difference in a QKD-4G with four jets and the same mech with seven was marginal, at best.

However, PGI never seemed to be aware of this problem. More likely, based on their approach to other problems in the past, and taking Paul's post into account, they didn't see it as a problem at all. They only heard people complaining about pop-tarts, and so came to the conclusion jump jets were too powerful. Across the board. Which was, of course, nonsense...

PGI's solution to this problem of jump jet superiority, implemented as per this latest patch? They did two separate things. The first was, they lowered the total thrust output for all jump jets. The second, as described in Paul's initial post informing us of the upcoming (now implemented) changes, was to lower the cumulative thrust value for each successive jet installed. Here's what this looks like in practice:

1 jet = 1 meter (initial lift-off) + 5 meter thrust = 6 meters total height
2 jets = 1m + 9m thrust (4.5m per jet x 2 jets) -> 10 meters total height
...
5 jets = 1m + 15m thrust (3m per jet x 5 jets) -> 16 meters total height

They appear to have also lowered the initial lift-off value, though I can't really be sure. From 1PV, there doesn't seem to be any actual lift-off, just JJ thrust. The jumping animation in 3PV, amusingly enough, still shows the mech taking a "hop" - although if you immediately release the space bar, the mech teleports back onto the ground instead of dropping down, which confirms what happens in 1PV(no actual hop).

Either way, jets are much weaker than before. To compare the two systems, using values of one, two, and five jump jets in each:
System 1 gives heights of: 8m, 11m, and 20m
System 2, the current system, gives heights of: 6m, 10m, and 16m

So, was pop-tarting nerfed? Sure. You'll need a lot more jets than before to get the same amount of air. You no longer gain a massive advantage with the first few jump jets. It's good that a pop-tart should have to spend more weight (and heat, but that's a separate issue that has no bearing on JJ performance as mobility tools) to take advantage of such a useful tactic.

But NON-poptart jump-jet mechs are the ones that suffer the most. They now have to take the same tonnage in jump-jets as pop-tart mechs, for no benefit. These jump jet changes have, in effect, converted jump-jets into a pop-tart item. They no longer have much use for mobility or brawling. It's a shame. It's short-sighted. It's... typical :/

And to finally reach an answer to your question - how better to do it? Easy. The one good change PGI implemented is absolute (apparently) removal of the initial hop when using jets. Keep that. But then make jets more powerful than they were before. Such that:


1 jet = 8m total height
2 jets = 16m total height
3 jets = 24m total height (just enough to safely jump over an Atlas while still having enough fuel left over to land on the other side without damaging your legs)
...
7 jets (generally speaking, the highest possible JJ in the game; only the SDR-5V can carry more) = 56m total height

There are many ways to balance this further, aside from weight, crits, and heat. You could make each successive jet not only propel you farther, but faster as well. Pop-tarting benefits from slow lift-offs and falls; the low speed makes it easier to line up your shots. if you want to mount five jets, you'll get good height, but aiming will become more difficult because you'll be moving faster. You could even reflect this in the degree to which the reticle shakes. One jet barely vibrates it, seven turns it into a pinball. You could also simply make jets not provide mostly upward lift; make all jets launch the mech at a 45-degree angle. This would severely limit poptarting not only in limiting the number of appropriate spots from which to do it, but by making it harder to aim since you're moving along a horizontal axis. Point being, there are many, many ways to balance pop-tarting without nerfing mechs that use jets for their intended purpose.

[JHackworth]

'mechs should 'leap' in air with jump jets. Maybe not quite gundam style but certain not the anemic, tortured VTOL take-off that we see now. I am all for making that cost more, but the performance and cost curve should be exponential, not linear. If you take 5 jump jets, you should rocket up. Your Summoner should have all the benefits of the JJs it is stuck with because it is already paying the penalty in hardpoints.

[Bloodweaver]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 16 July 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

The problem right now (for well more than a year, actually) is that there are 2, (or 3, or 4, depending on how you count them) weapon and equipment combinations that are just the strongest for almost every situation (PPC+Gauss+JJ, PPC+AC/5+JJ), not just a given situation. All the new 'mechs and maps in the world won't help keep the game fresh, fun, and interesting if we must use them the same way in order to be competitive. If they only worked well in certain situations, it wouldn't be a problem.

And the reason that problem exists is because in any game that has 1) no re-spawn 2) no health restore and 3) targets with numerous different body sections, any damage that is both precise and instant (i.e., PPFLD) is going to provide tremendous advantages over any other type. The jump-jet mechanic only reinforces the "instant" nature of PPFL damage, which is also exacerbated by the "high heat cap + low heat dissipation rate" version of the Battletech heat system, and provides the added benefit of being untouchable once you're NOT firing (since you're back behind cover). And it sucks, really really bad, because we all know PGI won't be changing AC and PPC mechanics...

[Cimarb]

Bloodweaver, on 17 July 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

And it sucks, really really bad, because we all know PGI won't be changing AC and PPC mechanics...

I 99% agree with your last two posts! and they are very good with the exception of this one line? PGI has changed the AC and PPC mechanics in the Clan mechs, and they have already stated that, once they are sure of the balance between Clan and IS, they would look into implementing the same mechanics for IS versions. I personally cannot wait for that to happen, as I love the Clan weapon mechanics.

Otherwise, great posts.

[xe N on]

Poptarting don't need much jump height, just enough to fire your weapons over the obstacle you hiding at. In fact, while poptarting you don't want to fly high, because you expose your self to enemy's fire.

The key to poptarting is the very good control about the jump jets. Would using a jump jets catapult you 30 or 50 meter in hight without the ability to stop the jump in mid air poptarting would be much more risky, while brawling with jump jets would be fun again.

Reducing the jump hight and thrust will not stop poptarting up to a point where jump jets are completly obsolete.

Increasing the jump hight and the burst speed by factor 10 without the current control about the thurst time would be the solution to all the poptart problems!

Edited by xe N on, 17 July 2014 - 08:30 PM.

[stjobe]

Bloodweaver, on 17 July 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

But NON-poptart jump-jet mechs are the ones that suffer the most. They now have to take the same tonnage in jump-jets as pop-tart mechs, for no benefit. These jump jet changes have, in effect, converted jump-jets into a pop-tart item. They no longer have much use for mobility or brawling. It's a shame. It's short-sighted. It's... typical :/

Great post, just wanted to highlight this little gem.

PGI really, really, really needs to try to figure out the ramifications of their changes before they implement them. I'm tired of constantly seeing them implement a change to affect X which does little or nothing at all to X, but nerfs Y and Z needlessly.

[wanderer]

Whelp, Paul said this wasn't there to fix poptarting.

Right he was. All it did was serve to make jump jets worse for any purpose other than poptarting.

Fail.

And the most amusing part to me is the further they go from TT-style implementation, the worse they get. The MWO jump jet has become more and more a gunnery tool and less a mobility tool- the exact reverse of what it should be. Jumping around and firing in midair should be garbage accuracy, but an easy way to bypass rough terrain.

JJ limits are random and arbitrary, and with the way things work out, one is still better than many for what MWO has turned them into.

Scrap the current system.

[Daddy Pig]

I don't like how the jump scale with the number of jumpjets. I'd like to see more difference in jump speed between my single JJ timberwolf and my 5 JJ one.

[SgtMagor]

with the way they limited jump jet performance, how will we get more advanced jet features, like strafing, vector thrusting, and hovering?

[Desdain]

I'm pretty unhappy with the JJ changes. There's no point in having less than 4 JJs now.

[The Unknown Pilot]

Thanks PGI....4 JJ's in my Shadow Hawk would not let me clear the shelf from the valley in Canyon Network now.

Gee, I wonder why not enough medium Mechs are in queue?

[Simbacca]

Cimarb, on 17 July 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

I 99% agree with your last two posts! and they are very good with the exception of this one line? PGI has changed the AC and PPC mechanics in the Clan mechs, and they have already stated that, once they are sure of the balance between Clan and IS, they would look into implementing the same mechanics for IS versions. I personally cannot wait for that to happen, as I love the Clan weapon mechanics.

Otherwise, great posts.

The easiest solution is preventing AC/Gauss + PPCs from firing within 2 seconds (or 1 second) of each other. Problem solved.

*****

As for the Jump Jets, I have to agree - they are not as useful as they once were. I used jump jets to clear obstacles and get into hard to reach areas for both spotting and attack purposes...

Edited by Simbacca, 18 July 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[Icewraith]

If we're going to have such terribly slow jump jets, can we at least get some more fuel so a Summoner doesn't need two thirds of its jet bar to clear an obstacle half its height? Also/additionally/alternatively give more jump jets better acceleration but with a slightly longer ramp-up, so the mech feels heavier (more inertia) but once you're in the air you can still go places (more inertia!). Right now if a mech drops off a ledge you can burn your entire jet bar without affecting your fall much.

Alternatively, if jump jets are going to be this useless, can we please stop treating them as fixed equipment on the Summoner and Nova?

Guiding principle: it should take no more than four jump jets for any chassis (no pilot skills) to comfortably and reliably jump from the bottom to the top of the canyon running through the D2-D3 intersection on Network Canyon. Eyeballing it, that's about a level four hill. Currently my Summoner almost makes it and then actually ends up with its torso sticking out above the canyon's lip. It requires most of a second jump to reliably get all the way up the hill (which would only be a one level elevation change, but you gotta jump a bit higher to make sure the legs don't catch on the edge of the canyon). Right now it takes five Jump Jets to make what would be in TT a three-level elevation change.

[Postumus]

I think the problem with the jumpjet change is that, while it was SAID that the change had nothing to do with nerfing pop-tarts, the change was actually meant to nerf pop-tarts.

It is impossible to "regulate" pop tarting by decreasing jumpjet performance while still allowing for jump jets to be useful for navigation and mobility. Jump sniping requires a minimum of jumpjet performance, while navigation and mobility requires every bit of JJ thrust. Once the devs realize this, and resolve to balance jump sniping another way (dozens of interesting suggestions so far on the forums), THEN we can have jumpjets that are fast, fun, and tactically useful.

The current crappy jumpjets are only forcing pop-tarts to take an extra ton or two, while ruining JJs for everyone else.

[KILLBANDS]

jumpjets are completely useless now

there is literally no point running with them on my highlander unless I waste somuch tonnage to have 3-5 of them, which even then barely are that much better than what 2 was before! i never even poptarted. i used it for travel.

Why gimp JJ like this? Why not just add heat gain while they're being used and increased heat for weps while flying or shake for weapons when falling?

Bonus:

If I take away all my builds weapons and change over to something lame like gauss and 2ppc I'm going to have the space left for full JJ, thus keeping poptarting in. Thanks for destroying builds with JJ that don't poptart lol.

Edited by KILLBANDS, 19 July 2014 - 04:58 AM.

[Shaio]

This jump jet patch is a return to a time in MWO when you where struggling to get enough vertical thrust to clear objects that were less then twice the height of a battlemech(aka atlas) with max jump jets. Instead what we end up with is hover mechs (woo hoo ), I didn't like it then and I do not like it now. I agree that the number of jump jets equipped was definitely not scaled correctly and desperately need an adjustment.

Jump Jets for MWO:

• Jump Mech do not hover: reduce horizontal velocity to a maximum of two thirds the top speed of Mech.
  
• return the vertical velocity to something close to previous levels with max jets: I need to be able to spread damage on to my legs (Give My Jump Brawlers BACK!!)

Seriously the new max jump jet settings are taking away FUN from MWO. I do not see how this has improved the game.

Edited by Shaio, 20 July 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[Grayblue]

I do get the linear part. But, why did mechs get overall max distance reduction?

Jump jets are useless now for heavies for maneuvering with anything less than 3 jump jets. My Jester can only have two, and it only jumps 9m now. Totally useless.

Now I have to sacrifice firepower or heat management to have more jump jets on other mechs.

Pop tarting mechs only need about two PPC, so they don't get much problems with maxing out Jump Jets.

So, the developers are saying they want to control pop-tart and make jump jets used for mobility, but do things that kills mobility and not much to kill pop-tart.

So brilliant.

They want to kill pop-tarting, but allow a pop-tart Victor build to jump 23.9m with 4 jump jets, jump 11.9m with two jump jets, then maim my non-poptart Catapult to jump even less than a Victor can, and effectively kill its mobility with 2 jump jets.

Makes ZERO sense.

Edited by Grayblue, 19 July 2014 - 10:04 AM.