158 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

116th NorskaFresh, on 10 July 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

I keep on hearing people refer to mechs as robots or giant robots...

robots are automated or controlled by an AI certainly not piloted by a human.

everytime i hear robot i think of dumb plodding 50s style toy robots with no brains what so ever.

A mech on the other hand is piloted like a carrier fighter. It has a cockpit, ejection seat and weapons and other systems under human control.

would anybody term an f14 tomcat a robot?

BattleMechs are semi-autonomous, much closer to a "true" robot than to a 20th century tank or fighter jet.

Here's some snippets from Tech Manual, p.30-43:


(Tech Manual, p.42)

The Targeting & Tracking system presents targets for the pilot, who chooses one (or several). The 'Mech itself then aims its weapons at the target, but it's the MechWarrior who decides when to fire.


(Tech Manual, p.43)

Just think about the wording "Well-trained 'Mechs" for a while. Would anyone ever talk about a "well-trained F14" or a "well-trained" Abrams?

'Mechs are smart; way smarter than any 20th century tank or fighter jet, to the point that calling them "robots" isn't quite the misnomer the OP wants it to be. In fact, it's a correct use of the term, since robots can be autonomous or semi-autonomous - and BattleMechs fall squarely into the second category.

The wikipedia page for Robot has the following to say:

Quote

Merriam-Webster describes a robot as a "machine that looks like a human being and performs various complex acts (as walking or talking) of a human being", or a "device that automatically performs complicated often repetitive tasks", or a "mechanism guided by automatic controls"

- all of which are true for the BattleMech.

So yeah, 'mechs are robots. Very, very smart, semi-autonomous robots.

Someone please tell Paul.

Edited by stjobe, 10 July 2014 - 11:17 PM.

[headbasher]

Bhael Fire, on 10 July 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

NO.

They are mechanized walking tanks that just happen to have animal or humanoid-like features.

They are not "gundams", "robots", or "mecha" ...Those things belong to different franchises.

They are called Battlemechs. Or 'mechs if you're nasty.



Most people know what a mech is now...even non-nerds...you don't have to call them "robots" anymore.

I would be willing to bet a good portion of the western world has no idea what a Mech is. Meh im just gonna say the world in general has no idea.

Edited by headbasher, 10 July 2014 - 11:49 PM.

[Hollow Earth]

They are Giant Robots!

And chicks dig them.

[Navy Sixes]

Bhael Fire, on 10 July 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Most people know what a mech is now...even non-nerds...you don't have to call them "robots" anymore.

Who said anything about nerds? I think the idea for the above mentioned people who, as I stated earlier, don't care, is that despite the reference to scale, "giant stompy robots" has a distinctly diminutive flavor. Or, as my girlfriend simply put it, "that's cute."

So while I appreciate you letting me know I can call them mechs, I'll let my girlfriend go on thinking that the money this game sucks out of our life is going toward something "cute," if you don't mind.

[627]

Magic space robots! from Space! Now with more dakka!

Or do you prefer big tin can?

[ArmandTulsen]

Cue Titanfall.....

[AUSSIETROOPER4]

stjobe, on 10 July 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

BattleMechs are semi-autonomous, much closer to a "true" robot than to a 20th century tank or fighter jet.

Here's some snippets from Tech Manual, p.30-43:


(Tech Manual, p.42)

The Targeting & Tracking system presents targets for the pilot, who chooses one (or several). The 'Mech itself then aims its weapons at the target, but it's the MechWarrior who decides when to fire.


(Tech Manual, p.43)

Just think about the wording "Well-trained 'Mechs" for a while. Would anyone ever talk about a "well-trained F14" or a "well-trained" Abrams?

'Mechs are smart; way smarter than any 20th century tank or fighter jet, to the point that calling them "robots" isn't quite the misnomer the OP wants it to be. In fact, it's a correct use of the term, since robots can be autonomous or semi-autonomous - and BattleMechs fall squarely into the second category.

The wikipedia page for Robot has the following to say:
- all of which are true for the BattleMech.

So yeah, 'mechs are robots. Very, very smart, semi-autonomous robots.

Someone please tell Paul.

I think by semi-autonomous they do not mean with a person controlling it's every move. They are more referring to the robot being able to do a lot of things on it's own without human intervention. In a mech everything that is done is determined and directed by the human pilot. It does nothing on it's own unless it is minor maintenance or to do with the running of the mech, can complete no tasks on it's own. It needs the human.
A robot on the other hand has a brain and completes tasks on its own using its body to carry out its designed function.

But yes I understand how robot could be extremely loosely applied by those being a little more able to split hairs more thinly than I.

[stjobe]

116th NorskaFresh, on 11 July 2014 - 01:55 AM, said:

I think by semi-autonomous they do not mean with a person controlling it's every move. They are more referring to the robot being able to do a lot of things on it's own without human intervention. In a mech everything that is done is determined and directed by the human pilot. It does nothing on it's own unless it is minor maintenance or to do with the running of the mech, can complete no tasks on it's own. It needs the human.
A robot on the other hand has a brain and completes tasks on its own using its body to carry out its designed function.

Did you not bother to read any of the excerpts from the Tech Manual I provided?

The MechWarrior does NOT control every move of the 'Mech; far from it. 'Mechs are fully capable of moving from A to B on their own, avoiding obstacles along the way. BattleMechs (as opposed to IndustrialMechs) give their MechWarrior absolute override of any movements (whereas the IndustrialMech won't, for the safety of the operator) because it's a war machine.

Is this a robot in your book?



Because that's semi-autonomous, not fully autonomous. 'Mechs are much smarter than Big Dog.

[AUSSIETROOPER4]

I just read over them and see nothing that the mech does that would make me call it a giant robot.
It may be a little closer than an F14 but it still has to follow the pilots lead.

In its simplist terms:

Robot: (no human intervention) robot mind controlling actions with intent to complete the over all mission



Mech (Human in complete control including when to allow the mech to take any sort of partial control)


All I am saying is that in the scheme of things a mech is just another vehicle being piloted and controlled by a person. Anything else is splitting hairs. People think robots are giant AI with no people inside... and thats what they are unless we are being borderline about it and I don't want to be borderline about it. It's clear to me.

Besides in mechwarrior online we do not have any of this automation so the game is not about any of that lore. There is no point calling the mechs in this game robots because they have zero automation.

Mechwarriors ARE not ROBOTS!! But they do pilot giant war machines with legs that have some automatic features. Autopilot does not = robot to me at least.

Edited by 116th NorskaFresh, 11 July 2014 - 02:33 AM.

[Demoncard]

Bhael Fire, on 10 July 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

I think it annoys me the most when people think they ARE the mech...instead of piloting it.

I am a mech and I don't like your post.

[stjobe]

116th NorskaFresh, on 11 July 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

I just read over them and see nothing that the mech does that would make me call it a giant robot.
It may be a little closer than an F14 but it still has to follow the pilots lead.

It's rather more than "a little closer", and as I pointed out in the comparison to IndustrialMechs, the main reason the MechWarrior has absolute override is because they are war machines. However, in a run through a forest, the MechWarrior doesn't have to worry about where to step, or to avoid crashing into a tree - the 'mech takes care of all that on its own.

A 'Mech will do its utmost to avoid taking damage from the environment - unless the MechWarrior tells it otherwise.

There's simply no comparison to an F-14, which is just a dumb pile of metal. A 'Mech is a smart pile of metal.

116th NorskaFresh, on 11 July 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

In its simplist terms:

Robot: (no human intervention)

Mech (Human in complete control including when to allow the mech to take any sort of partial control)

'Mechs are semi-autonomous robot fighting vehicles; your dichotomy is too simple.

116th NorskaFresh, on 11 July 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

All I am saying is that in the scheme of things a mech is just another vehicle being piloted and controlled by a person

It's more akin to a self-driving car or a remotely-controlled drone than any "regular" vehicle. It does most of the moving and aiming on its own.

116th NorskaFresh, on 11 July 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

Besides in mechwarrior online we do not have any of this automation so the game is not about any of that lore.

We have perhaps too little of it, but the game cannot be "a BattleTech game" without having actual BattleMechs in it - and those BattleMechs have a very high degree of autonomy.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

OP, whenever you see someone call a 'mech a giant stompy robot or gundam, they know the difference. It is a joke and sometimes the joke is to get a response such as the one you had.

Edited by Rouken, 11 July 2014 - 02:44 AM.

[Livewyr]

They are robots that allow humans to pilot them!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am Yen Lo Wang, who presents himself to the King of the Nine Hells?"
"I am Kai Allard Liao."

"Voice print pattern match, obtained. Authorization: Confirmed."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Kit Fox 349287-XL-3341 Online. Proceed with voice identification."
"I am Phelan Wolf."

"Voice print pattern match obtained. Welcome aboard Phelan Wolf. Time for you to earn your pay as a Mechwarrior."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The argument could be made...


DO not bother me with your "UI" BS.

[Firemage]

From the view of a mecha fan, Mechs in Mechwarrior are "real robots" in the style of Gundam or of course Macross, rather than "Super Robots" like Go Nagi's work or classic "combining" types like Voltron/GoLion. They are not "Androids" like the robots in Star Wars, but everything I have mentioned is a robot in some way.

-G

[AUSSIETROOPER4]

Livewyr,

I can understand that. But I am talking about the ones that believe it and actually prefer to think of themselves as robots and of course those that really do not know the difference.

You like me. Are presuming a lot. I have had people I am on coms with NOT know the difference.
There is after all a guy in this thread arguing the point for mechs being robots.

Edited by 116th NorskaFresh, 11 July 2014 - 04:01 AM.

[AUSSIETROOPER4]

Actually is Mecha not japanese for robot?

[CDLord HHGD]

The term "robot" still applies.... Many genres across decades have given a broad range to the use of the term robot. Palladium Rifts calls pilotable suits either power armor or robots. In the movie Robot Jox, well, robots. I'd rather see them called robots than gundams any day.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Bhael Fire, on 10 July 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

NO.

They are mechanized walking tanks that just happen to have animal or humanoid-like features.

They are not "gundams", "robots", or "mecha" ...Those things belong to different franchises.

They are called Battlemechs. Or 'mechs if you're nasty.

Actually they are Mecha.

See Mecha, is japanese shorthand for Mechanical. Technically, your personal vehicle [ie your car/truck/van] is even considered a Mecha by the strictest sense of the term in Japanese.

However Mecha in pop culture, generally refers to some kind of either powered armor, or giant mobile suit or fighting machine. Under which Battlemechs and Omnimechs fall under.

Also add the fact that Battletech was inspired by Macross, Crusher Joe, and Fang of the Sun Dogrum... and yeah, battlemechs are mecha. Cry more, you're a weaboo even if you don't want to be for liking Battletech.

[Shae Starfyre]

While the defined nature of Robots, Bots, Robotics, and Soft Robotics, and the ilk, can well define various aspects of the Battlemech, there is one interesting part of it that remains interesting to me.

Defined: A robot is a mechanical or virtual artificial agent, usually an electro-mechanical machine that is guided by a computer program or electronic circuitry. Robots can be autonomous or semi-autonomous.

As was stated above already, the argument for semi-autonomous (regardless of the techmanual, because frankly, that was written a long time ago, and we are looking at a modern definition of the term, or at least that seems to be the problem).

The problem is that semi-autonomous does not nessessarily preclude man from the definition: half-man, half robot; half autonomous in the sense that it is not fully "One who gives oneself one's own law" - it could literal mean that a semi-automonmous robot is lacking all the different bot type architecture and programming that would give it full autonomy thus require man's input.

Based on the rules of Autonomous Robotics (the rule of 4, and not from the movie (the 3 laws)),

A fully autonomous robot can:
Gain information about the environment (Rule #1)
Work for an extended period without human intervention (Rule #2)
Move either all or part of itself throughout its operating environment without human assistance (Rule #3)
Avoid situations that are harmful to people, property, or itself unless those are part of its design specifications (Rule #4)

As such, one could then extrapolate that semi, in this case, could mean that while our Battlemechs can (Rule #1 - sensors, Rule #3 (in part) - Gryos, and Rule #4 - armor, warnings systems, etc., in large, the Human element replaces Rule 2 and parts of rule 3, and an argument could be made that in all the rules, the human is part of it as well, but not completely, thus, making them semi-autonomous.

Hence, they are, semi-autonomous robots from a modern view point (fact).

And, in fact, almost all electro-mechanical devices today have a semi-autonomous robotic nature to one degree or another (if you dig deep enough into the meanings and definition and rules of robotics, bots, soft robotics, etc.) including your tanks, jets, and cell-phones.

Edited by Aphoticus, 11 July 2014 - 05:11 AM.

[Bosie]

They are robots to me, giant stompy ones at that.