Yes, it is a serious topic. And for those who can't read, I KNOW it's not Table Top.
My point is that Table Top has systems to discourage this behavior whereas MWO does not.
I think we can safely slow mechs down due to heat levels. I'm not sure if pursuing a jittery aiming system for heat accuracy loss is a 'good' thing to do in an FPS. I wouldn't actually use that one *for an FPS* personally. Ammo combustion? Again, not sure I'd do that. But the tiered shut downs, maybe as a 'spike heat detected triggers emergency shutdown' type of thing? That could be valid.
I know that overall heat capacity is a chunk of this issue. It's really not even close to what it is in Table Top, but the weapons OTHERWISE CONFORM to Table Top specs in most situations. If that is the case, the way heat was designed *in Table Top* was to balance those weapons for a system that has a MUCH LOWER top threshold.
So basically you'd add RNG shutdown (that would mostl likely result in your death) to a game that is trying to limit RNG that can result in your death (not saying they've eliminmated it all or will ever). Further with the real time heat dissipation you'd have mechs speeding up and slowing down constantly in such a way that it would likely hurt the over all gameplay (particularly if you lowered the heat capacity and speed up dissipation).
While this game is not a TT is trying to shine as a battletech game. Read it at top left corner. If you dont like, that is based on TT game go to hawken or something, heavy gear is TT too in that maner.
Now on topic. Biggest problem of mwo is that thay went too far from BT TT.
Yes we need REAL heat system and REAL critical hit system.
Well, given various builds I've used across several chassis, and being shot at by the red team in-game, they currently are the main mode of attack for many builds. Mission not accomplished.
Also, IIRC, Paul said in a NGNG podcast that heat was created to reduce the amount of damage from big alphas...not to make alpha'ing a last resort.
same difference in my eyes. I could have worded it better.
Regardless that's PGI's stance on alphas and ghost heat.
If this is a serious post (sorry, account is relatively new), heat is only used to maintain the maximum amount of DPS certain builds can release.
What kept alpha strikes balanced for TT was every single weapon fired hit a different location randomly (M to N) where in MWO all fired weapons hit a single random location (M to 1).
There actually were no alpha strikes in tabletop, it's a complete and physical impossibility.
All shots are fired one at a time, across 10 seconds, with no weapon fired at the same time.
From another thread.
Koniving, on 13 July 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:
You have no idea how much it annoys me to have to explain tabletop to people day to day to day to day...
You are aware that in TT, you are firing 1 use or rating per weapon, in the span of 10 seconds. TEN SECONDS. Lets begin counting shall we?
1 second, 2 second, 3 second 4 second 5 second 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10!
NOT INSTANT!
NOT BAM!
NOT PINPOINT!
You travel at 6 hexes or 180 meters in 10 seconds. That's 64.8 kph. Note it is NOT INSTANTANEOUS EITHER!
Same with ALL weapons fire in tabletop.
Stationary mech. Warhawk, 4 ER PPCs, 20 DHS. We're using tabletop. Here we go!
Cooling rate: 4/sec.
Threshold: 30.
Fire 4 ER PPCs in one tabletop turn!
0 seconds. Fires 1 ER PPC. WHOOSH!. + 15 heat. (15) 50%.
1 second. -4. 11 heat.
2 seconds. -4. 7 heat.
3 seconds. -4. 3 heat. Fire 1 ER PPC. Whoosh + 15 heat. (18). 60%.
4 seconds. -4. 14 heat.
5 seconds - 4. 10 heat. Pilot's overzealous! Fire 1 ER PPC! Whoosh + 15 heat = 25 heat 83.33%!!! Ammo is cooking!
6 seconds - 4. 21 heat. 70%.
7 seconds - 4. 17 heat. 56.67%.
8 seconds - 4. 13 heat.
9 seconds - 4. 9 heat. Fire 1 ER PPC. Whoosh + 15 heat = 24 heat. 80%!
10 seconds -4. 20 heat. 66.67%.
Look at that, ten seconds and it never touched 30 threshold!? WOW!
I mean goddamn WOW!
That's a pretty fiesty order with true DHS. Then again ER PPCs only fired once in a ten second period anyway. You know what else? None of them were fired at the same time.
Still 66.67% heat after the 10 seconds, but damn you shutdown, waited 10 seconds, blew your ammo. Ouch, man, are you suicidal or what? Not to mention you lost consciousness and fell over. Not the brightest move in the world there, mate.
But wait, you think ever so foolishly you can fire 4 ER PPCs twice each in 10 seconds?
Still tabletop!
0 seconds FIRE ALL FOUR! + 60 heat!
200% threshold! Warning! Shutdown! Ammo explodes!
1 second. -4. 56 heat. 186.67%.
2 seconds - 4. 52 heat. 173.33%
3 seconds - 4. 48 heat. 160%.
4 seconds - 4. 44 heat. 146.67%
5 seconds - 4. 40 heat. 133.33% (Note while physically impossible, we're gonna do it again because people don't understand)
6 seconds - 4. 36 heat. 120%. FIRE ALL FOUR! + 60 heat = 96 heat = 320% threshold! ZOMG!
Not even gonna continue counting that math for ya.
Now in MWO, compare to the first one in tabletop and lets see what happens.
In fact, lets push all 4 at once without ghost heat!
Threshold: 76.8.
Cooling: 3.91/sec.
0 seconds FIRE ALL FOUR! + 60 heat!
78.125% threshold! No punishment! 60 damage alpha strike, ZOMG OP!
1 second. -3.91. 56.09 heat. 73.033854166667%.
2 seconds ||. 52.18 heat.
3 seconds ||. 48.27 heat.
4 seconds ||. 44.36 heat.
5 seconds ||. 40.45 heat. 52.669270833333%
6 seconds ||. 36.54 heat.
7 seconds ||. 32.63 heat.
8 seconds ||. 28.72 heat. 37.395833333333%(Remember how this was 93.33%?)
9 seconds ||. 24.81 heat.
10 seconds ||. 20.9 heat. 27.213541666667%(Remember how this was 66.67%?)
Notice something godawful wrong with this picture?
Anyway, you've had your tabletop lesson for the day.
(Charge up PPCs in lore covered in here, spoilered as unrelated).
Spoiler
I should also remind you that 15 heat alone, with nothing else, is a shutdown risk at 50% threshold. Want to know how an ER PPC avoids it?
It's surprisingly simple. Just like in the books, they have a charge up. Know that Gauss Rifle charge up? PPCs have them too. Fun, eh? When Smith and Tinker was backing MW5...
Hear that wonderful sound? It's a PPC charge up. https://www.youtube....d&v=suzbAUC-0l8
Enjoy!
Of the tabletop weapons, ER PPC charge ups were easily manageable.
Regular PPC charge ups were slower than Gauss Rifle charge ups (hence the longer minimum range; which had absolutely nothing to do with damage as you could still hit a target at 30 meters. Your chance to hit the target -- a modifier normally seen if you are moving or the target is moving; it's associated with movement -- decreases as if your target is moving even if it is stationary. This is because you are charging up the PPC for a longer than agreeable time. The fix? Quite simple, turn off the Field Inhibitor. What happens? The to hit penalty modifier is removed. This is because the PPC is able to generate its full damage much quicker at the risk of exploding.
Also, here's what happens if a Dire Wolf fires all of its weapons, one at a time, over 10 seconds.
"Heat Phase
-------------------
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) gains 73 heat, sinks 44 heat and is now at 29 heat.
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) needs a 5+ to avoid shutdown, rolls 9 : avoids successfully!
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) needs a 8+ to avoid ammo explosion, rolls 5 : fails to avoid explosion.
*** LRM 10 Ammo EXPLODES! 110 DAMAGE! ***
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) takes 110 damage to LT.
SECTION DESTROYED,
LIMB BLOWN OFF Left Arm blown off.
remaining 89 damage prevented by CASE.
Critical hit on LT. Roll is 6; no effect.
Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" takes 2 damage.
Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 6 : successful!
Pilot of Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime (Lordred) "Bryan Otsuka" needs a 5 to stay conscious. Rolls 7 : successful!
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime needs a 6+ for coolant failure, rolls 8 : fails.
Daishi (Dire Wolf) Prime's coolant is now less effective.
King Crab KGC-010 (Koniving) gains 25 heat, sinks 20 heat and is now at 5 heat.
King Crab KGC-010 needs a 10+ for coolant failure, rolls 5 : avoids successfully!"
----------------
You might also note that for creating exactly 25 heat, the King Crab had to roll for a possible coolant failure despite cooling 20 of the 25 heat.
In MWO, what happens (With ghost heat) when you fire everything at once? You shutdown for a fraction of a second and are ready to move again.
His quote "...high amounts of damage, fired out of a mech, at one time." He starts talking about his intentions right around 11:20 in the podcast. Yay, my memory isn't as bad as I thought.
do you really have to spell that out when you implement a mechanic that targets that specifically...?
Yes, because the two scenarios for PGI's motivations we're presenting are fundamentally different. Paul just wanted to reduce the raw firepower, he didn't want to make anything a "last resort" (as far as he's said, at least). Reducing damage =/= last resort. Apples and oranges.
Yes, because the two scenarios for PGI's motivations we're presenting are fundamentally different. Paul just wanted to reduce the raw firepower, he didn't want to make anything a "last resort" (as far as he's said, at least). Reducing damage =/= last resort. Apples and oranges.
they were reduced because they were not meant to be the main mode of attack.
they were pointed at alpha strikes because one weapon doesn't trigger it
they were pointed at alpha strikes because alpha strikes are what he was referring to as "raw firepower"
they were reduced because they were not meant to be the main mode of attack.
---
Paul didn't say anything about that in the podcast.
Sandpit, on 15 July 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:
---
they were pointed at alpha strikes because one weapon doesn't trigger it
they were pointed at alpha strikes because alpha strikes are what he was referring to as "raw firepower"
You don't need to convince me that Paul wanted to target alphas. You need to convince me that Paul wanted alphas to not be the "main mode" of attack. Show me where he said something along those lines.
Paul didn't say anything about that in the podcast.
that's why I'm asking if they have to actually spell out every little thing every time they do something. I'm one of the most critical when it comes to PGI's communication skills but in this case I don't understand how this one gets misinterpreted.
that's why I'm asking if they have to actually spell out every little thing every time they do something. I'm one of the most critical when it comes to PGI's communication skills but in this case I don't understand how this one gets misinterpreted.
I can only interpret the things that he actually says. You're pulling the last resort thing from a difference source.
EDIT: I took the time to write up Paul's entire segment about "heat scale."
Paul in the podcast said:
It was Bryan’s idea. *Laughs* No, okay. When it comes to heat scale, or, as it’s affectionately known as ghost heat, um, that was me. The reason why I, well, let’s go back to the original problem. The original problems that we had are problem with high alpha, I’m sorry high damage alphas. And that’s not just Mechwarrior: Online. That includes Mechwarrior 4, 3, 2, basically anything related to Mechwarrior. Even, uh, Battletech itself.
Was that, it became a point where people were focusing more along the lines of just punching a hole through a mech, doing whatever it takes to just obliterate a mech in the shortest amount of time possible. And, that’s one thing that we did not want to carry over into Mechwarrior: Online as well, just, that’s just the state of the game, deal with it. Uh, the reason why we came up with heat scale was that it basically stops that high alpha damage.
Right, and I’m not talking about the fact that they’re pinpoint alphas, I’m not talking about that are boating mechs, I’m not talking about weapons just being out of whack, I’m just talking about high amounts of damage, fired out of a mech, at one time. And, this is where heat scale actually stops that process.
And, I’ve even heard the suggestions from the community, about lowering the heat cap and increasing the heat dissipation. I appreciate what that does, but at the same time, it does not stop this high alpha damage. What it does do is spreads that out. You’ll hit your heat cap, you’ll shut down, yes, that’s dirty, yes. But at the same time, you will be able to cool down and fire that same thing again.
Whereas with heat scale, what it’s doing is saying that okay, if you do that high alpha, you’re gonna overheat, you’re also gonna die doing it. Right, and, that’s what basically curtails those builds, it curtails that whole idea of gameplay of just trying to punch a hole through a mech.
Now, it just comes down to a matter of balancing out whether or not we think, like, for example, if 35 damage alpha strike is too much, or is that too little. Um, what if we nerf weapons down to like 20 alpha damage. Is that gonna be too much, is that gonna be too little? It just becomes, kinda, like spitballing at what we feel it should be.
The thing about 30-35 damage alphas is that yes, lights are still getting hit really hard, yes mechs that don’t have a lot of center torso armor are gonna take a lot of damage, but the person firing that shot is gonna be jumping through hoops to pull that shot off. Right, and that becomes a skill shot. And that’s something that we’re actually fine with. So, basically, heat scale is exactly what we want it to do.
Is there room for balancing that? Yes, and no, it’s not gonna be drastic changes to it, but we can play with small changes within certain weapon systems, or just re-evaluate what weapon systems are being combined with other weapon systems. But, right now, it’s playing out fairly close to like I said before. It’s playing out very well actually.
that's why I'm asking if they have to actually spell out every little thing every time they do something. I'm one of the most critical when it comes to PGI's communication skills but in this case I don't understand how this one gets misinterpreted.
According to most this community, it seems that nothing short written out minutes detailing each company meeting would be good enough communication.
Some people (not just in this thread, I've heard this around) keep mentioning 'pin point' damage as 'the culprit.' I respectfully disagree. Pin point damage, if anything, is far, far worse in BattleTech than it ever could HOPE to be in MWO. It's harder to do given the random nature of shots hitting in TT, but it'd still be exponentially worse.
The issue, in my mind, is that there's no consequence to building the meta high damage alpha. If there's no consequence, people will do it. The BattleTech rules provide the risks for doing it. While I'm not going to say that BattleTech is 'THA MOST BALANCED GAYME EVARS!', I am going to say they took a reasonably well balanced game and then cherry picked the rules to mean what they wanted them to mean. As a direct result of that, they made what appear on the surface to be short-sighted mistakes.
I think that's a reasonably objective view of the situation, and that is WHY my solution would be to go further toward Table Tops heat system.
4
SolasTau, on 15 July 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:
