134 replies to this topic

[Wrayeth]

I've always used maxed jets on my jumpers, and this change feels like a slap in the face. The HGN jumps so slowly and for such a short distance that it can barely clear a pebble. It's now often better to just walk around an obstacle instead of jump over it. This is a very poor decision by PGI, and I will not be playing until they fix it.

The Highlander and other jumping mechs aren't the ones I use the most (that category is reserved for the Atlas), but I also don't like having gameplay options taken away from me. Right now, the jump jets on my Highlanders are waste of space and tonnage.

P.S. Let's see how many people don't even read my post and immediately say, "Cry moar, pop-tarter!" as if I'd said anything about pop-tarting.

P.P.S. For those people, learn to read.

[Vanguard319]

Sephlock, on 15 July 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

I think they explicitly said that they didn't want to remove poptarting...

maybe not, but if their intention was to curb it they failed miserably, all they did was make JJs completely useless for anything but poptarting. The thrust is so weak, you can't even slow down from a long fall with the fuel you have.

Wrayeth, on 15 July 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

I've always used maxed jets on my jumpers, and this change feels like a slap in the face. The HGN jumps so slowly and for such a short distance that it can barely clear a pebble. It's now often better to just walk around an obstacle instead of jump over it. This is a very poor decision by PGI, and I will not be playing until they fix it.

The Highlander and other jumping mechs aren't the ones I use the most (that category is reserved for the Atlas), but I also don't like having gameplay options taken away from me. Right now, the jump jets on my Highlanders are waste of space and tonnage.

P.S. Let's see how many people don't even read my post and immediately say, "Cry moar, pop-tarter!" as if I'd said anything about pop-tarting.

P.P.S. For those people, learn to read.

I feel the same, I liked having the freedom to jump over buildings, and make long falls from the high ground. You can't do neither in game now, trust me I've tried. Forget Death From Above too.

Edited by Vanguard319, 15 July 2014 - 11:37 PM.

[L3GR0DANCER]

MischiefSC, on 15 July 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

No, what we need is JJs to throw a mech up and forward with significant force and drop at proper acceleration.

This. Please. I read somewhere (some dev post, maybe?) that the constant used for gravity in MWO is much higher than your standard 9.8m/sec^2. Who knows why, but I imagine it wouldn't be that hard to have some sort of if/than statement to check whether one was not in contact with the terrain, and then apply more reasonable values for gravity. Mind you, I know nothing of the crytek engine, so I may just be speaking from my posterior.

[Sephlock]

L3GR0DANCER, on 15 July 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

Mind you, I know nothing of the crytek engine, so I may just be speaking from my posterior.

At least you aren't programming from it.

Seriously, they're going in the exact opposite direction from the one they should be headed in- the one that we've been pointing out is the correct direction since beta...

Hey, let's make jumping anemic and short-distance, but NOT adjust the fall rate- although we WILL increase fall DAMAGE! And hey, why bother with those pop tarts when we can make using jump jets as intended less fun?

[Khobai]

Quote

And hey, why bother with those pop tarts when we can make using jump jets as intended less fun?

Even if they left jumpjets alone, they would still have to penalize mechs with jumpjets in some other way, because mechs with jumpjets were better than mechs without jumpjets. The point is no matter what players wouldve complained. You cant make everyone happy, but the reality is JJs needed to be nerfed somehow, maybe this wasnt the best way to go about it, but at least theyre more in line with mechs without jumpjets now.

[kapusta11]

Community want to remove jump sniping altogether.

PGI want to preserve it as viable tactic yet with all the nerfs they are heading towards first.

I wouldn't worry about poptarts now, soon they will be as viable as 4xPPC Stalker, PGI know how to "balance" things.

[Fallreaper]

I can't really say about the jump sniping meta, but from a brief test after the patch using the Spider seems like super fun. I have (I think) 5/8 jump jets in my 5D and that thing really flies. With full jump jets I think you can clear the crater in Caustic by jumping from one side and landing on another. I did not have time to test the heavier mechs but at least for lighter mechs the thrust seems much more fun. I could just jump around the map now and have fun doing only that. Though the new fall mechanic makes legs feel like toothpicks but just matter of skill in landing those jumps. So for me at least the jump jet changes feel like a change to a more fun time in lights at least.

Edited by Fallreaper, 16 July 2014 - 12:49 AM.

[meteorol]

It fixed something. It fixed the fact that JJ gave too much benefit for almost no cost in first place.
Like the devs stated, this fix never intended to nerf jumpsniping, but to rebalanced JJ in general. And it works perfectly for what it should do. It tightens the gap between JJ mechs and non JJ mechs, something that was long overdue.

And that's coming from someone who has a HGN and VTR as most played mechs, soon to be passed by the TBR (using JJ on all varians). JJ needed an adjustment and they needed it badly.
It's interesting how everyone screams "OMG it doesn't affect jumpsnipers and nerfs jumpbrawlers" without paying attention to the fact that jumpbrawlers needed an adjustment compared to non JJ brawlers. It's not only about sniping vs. brawling, it's about JJ in the grand scheme of balance. They simply were too strong. Guys just got comfortable with something that was wrong in first place.

As someone who plays jumping assaults ever since the HGN was released, i wholeheartedly agree with the recent changes.

[L3GR0DANCER]

Khobai, on 16 July 2014 - 12:24 AM, said:

Even if they left jumpjets alone, they would still have to penalize mechs with jumpjets in some other way, because mechs with jumpjets were better than mechs without jumpjets. The point is no matter what players wouldve complained. You cant make everyone happy, but the reality is JJs needed to be nerfed somehow, maybe this wasnt the best way to go about it, but at least theyre more in line with mechs without jumpjets now.

Lots of mechs would be fine without JJs if the terrain penalties/movement archetypes weren't so terrible, not to mention that the tonnage JJs cost usually forces you to sacrifice something (yes, even before the patch) if you're not running a phract/victor/timberwolf. Even now, I see plenty of 3L, DDC, BLR, STK, and generally other mechs without JJs, that don't have terrible chassis' do well. Of course there's alot of VTR/TBR McNubbery, but with the way those mechs are set up, I don't really see that changing without radical nerfs to ppc/gauss.

I agree that JJs need to have lesser utility for heavies and assaults, but the nerf to mediums and lights is just ignorant, given all the other disincentives for playing them. Don't get me wrong, I still have good rounds in my lights, but the capabilities of my shadowhawks and griffins feels severely diminished. I haven't even tried to roll my quickdraws post-patch, but I imagine they've become just hilariously more terribad than they were before.

[Satan n stuff]

Adiuvo, on 15 July 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

I just realized you've probably just tested the heavy metal. If it's any consolation, the Highlander was majorly overnerfed. I'm sure you remember its first JJ tweak, way back in March. That was applied again. Essentially while every mech had its JJs nerfed by roughly half, the Highlander had it's quartered. Halved back in March and halved again today.

Russ mentioned on NGNG that they'll be looking at edge cases for tweaking. Hopefully the HGN ends up being one of the edge cases.

Given that it's the only mech that currently uses class 1 jump jets a fix that affects only the Highlander should be easy.

[AlexEss]

It is really very easy....

If you want a high mobility brawler, you use a medium brawler.

If you want a very high mobility brawler that can also do awesome jumping... You use a Jenner.

If you want a not very agile brawler that can take a hit you take a heavy

If you like to drive a shipping container armed with a doomsday device... you drive a assault.

An assault mech was never intended to be little dancer. Yes the Highlander is most likley over-nerfed but beyond that it is a matter of picking the right tool for the right job and not expecting a sledgehammer to solve all.

As that worn out old saying goes... Analyse, adapt and overcome.

[kapusta11]

AlexEss, on 16 July 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:

It is really very easy....

If you want a high mobility brawler, you use a medium brawler.

If you want a very high mobility brawler that can also do awesome jumping... You use a Jenner.

If you want a not very agile brawler that can take a hit you take a heavy

If you like to drive a shipping container armed with a doomsday device... you drive a assault.

An assault mech was never intended to be little dancer. Yes the Highlander is most likley over-nerfed but beyond that it is a matter of picking the right tool for the right job and not expecting a sledgehammer to solve all.

As that worn out old saying goes... Analyse, adapt and overcome.

Jump capable brawlers were never a problem, not to say that recent nerfs don't affect them at all.

Edited by kapusta11, 16 July 2014 - 01:43 AM.

[Mawai]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 July 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

Are you serious? The HGN hasn't "floated around like a butterfly" for a very long time. Pre-patch, they were in a pretty good place. Relatively slow thrust but good height, what you would expect from a big mech with big jump jets. It is just so bad now. Before you came on to say this stuff, did you hop in one to try it? Don't have one? Then hop into the trial 733C and take it for a spin in the testing ground. Let me know how the floating around like a butterfly goes.

Hi!

My reply was mostly aimed at the person stating that the game would devolve into 1-dimensional brawling in competitive play with the reduction of JJ effectiveness in heavy and assault mechs,

As far as the maneuverability of the highlander goes ... I only have one variant and didn't like it that much. However the OP stated:

"Also I want my damn money back for my Heavy Metal. The most interesting thing about that mech was that it could mount 5 JJs and jump around like a light mech."

So ... if it really doesn't "JUMP AROUND LIKE A LIGHT MECH" then please blame the OP for my misinterpretation

[A banana in the tailpipe]

A nerf that finally represents the effort required lifting the ego of the player off the ground.

[Ursh]

Noth, on 15 July 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

You have yet to say why someone would pick up an IP of a failed game if no one would do it back when it was a very successful game. You just say that well they've made money here so naturally someone would. Which is not really enough for anyone to pick up an IP as many IP that have fallen into disuse made good money for people, yet are not being picked up/continued with.

For the same reason hollywood makes a film out tv shows like the Dukes of Hazard, rather than trying to market a random movie about two rednecks who drive around in a cool car. Same reason they make films featuring comic book characters that people have been reading about for years, and every boy remembers from childhood. When you utilize a pre-existing franchise that had success in the past, a lot of your work to promote the new product has already been done for you.

There's a reason SOE made Everquest 2, and their next game is Everquest:Next. Nostalgia and name recognition. How many times does Star Citizen harp on the fact that it's being made by Chris Roberts, rather than simply marketing based on the strengths of their game concept?

This isn't a difficult concept really. Also, a more experienced developer could easily market their new iteration of MWO as having learned all the lessons of the past and, judging by the venom, including people like myself, have for PGI, they'd probably be pretty successful in drawing in Mechwarrior/Battletech fans.

[Kmieciu]

meteorol, on 16 July 2014 - 12:51 AM, said:

It fixed something. It fixed the fact that JJ gave too much benefit for almost no cost in first place.
Like the devs stated, this fix never intended to nerf jumpsniping, but to rebalanced JJ in general. And it works perfectly for what it should do. It tightens the gap between JJ mechs and non JJ mechs, something that was long overdue.

And that's coming from someone who has a HGN and VTR as most played mechs, soon to be passed by the TBR (using JJ on all varians). JJ needed an adjustment and they needed it badly.
It's interesting how everyone screams "OMG it doesn't affect jumpsnipers and nerfs jumpbrawlers" without paying attention to the fact that jumpbrawlers needed an adjustment compared to non JJ brawlers. It's not only about sniping vs. brawling, it's about JJ in the grand scheme of balance. They simply were too strong. Guys just got comfortable with something that was wrong in first place.

As someone who plays jumping assaults ever since the HGN was released, i wholeheartedly agree with the recent changes.

This.

To those who oppose the recent JJ changes - let me ask you a question.

Imagine you've got a Shadow Hawk with 0.5 tonne free. What are you gonna use it for? I say that 1 JJ is still more beneficial than 15 AC5 rounds. And 2JJ is still more beneficial than 1 DHS. The ability to land from any height without damage is still a big advantage for just 0.5 tonne.

Edited by Kmieciu, 16 July 2014 - 03:38 AM.

[DaZur]

While I'll agree it feels a little heavy handed... I have to admit many of you are looking at this change too linearly.

The JJ change is not strictly a nerf unto the JJ mechanics... It's also a tonnage / slot penalty and another class movement alignment.

In short... Assault movement has steadily been sliding toward movement expected of assaults, with this change the JJ movement has been brought into alignment. The linear ramp in JJs to number of JJs forces a player make decisions of concession... If I want the maximum benefit of JJs, I have to mount them all at the cost of tonnage and crit space.

While not perfect, it addresses some previous lazy game mechanic imbalances...

I can tell you my deftly nimble -5K took a hit in it's vertical mobility. That said, over the long-haul I can appreciate the intended effect this change was designed to affect.

For me it's yet another game mechanic change / challenge I have to learn how to work with... Not going to get my undies in a twist over the fact I have to re-assess my play style.

[Haipyng]

The major issue going on here is that PGI is following a model that more game publishers are doing. Releasing a game prior to being truly finished. These broad stroke changes are something you would see in closed betas before. Like every game, you develop a "feel" for how an avatar handles in game. A sudden change that makes that avatar handle differently really annoys gamers, so developers used to avoid annoying wide swaths of their user base by fully developing a game before launch.

Today we have developers charging for early access (beta access) and I think I just read an article on the practice now spreading to consoles. I remember being a volunteer Beta Tester for Microsoft Games back in the day. We got access to a buggy game, gave feedback, compared the tweaks, filed our bug reports and if you contributed enough you got a free copy of the game at the end. In some cases there are people doing this today and actually paying for the privilege.

For PGI this was a shoestring startup that needed to monetize sooner than later. PC gaming is a tough market these days compared to consoles. Only PGI and their accountants know what their books look like. MWO is obviously not a completed game but is really still in the beta stages of development, so we see things like the wonky group MM, broad balance changes affecting gameplay, Clan Mechs arriving without CW being implemented, and no decent new player trainer in place. The game is still under development. Its bad enough to rebalance an avatar that you have hundreds of hours playing in, but another to rebalance one you have hundreds of hours in and you paid cash specifically for it. Developers are pushing the boundaries of how often and far can you tweak before you drive away customers.

Edited by Haipyng, 16 July 2014 - 04:44 AM.

[Mystere]

Vanguard319, on 15 July 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

Forget Death From Above too.

I guess I'm bringing out some of my JJ mechs to see if I can still "kick" the enemy in the face.

Edited by Mystere, 16 July 2014 - 05:40 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viktor Drake, on 15 July 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Yep just what I thought, a typical PGI fix.

I never subscribed to the 1 JJ builds and always thought PGI should have made it so that you would be required to mount 3 JJs minimum in order to jump. Of course this is such a simple solution and one that easily solves the 1 JJ build dilemma so of course PGI doesn't do this.

Instead they have a better idea. Lets make it so if you mount the maximum JJs on a mech, it only fuctions like they would have worked previously with just 2 JJs mounted on the mech. Yeah this solves the problem. NOT!!!

Seriously PGI WTF are you thinking???

Jump Snipers and Poptarts never needed height to accomplish what they were doing, in fact jumping too high just made them better targets. No what they needed was to just just high enough to fire a quick burst without exposing themselves for any longer than required. YOU CAN STILL FRICKEN DO THIS!!!

What you can't do is get anywhere near the mobility out of JJs on mechs that weren't using the Meta builds and instead were using JJs for high mobility builds with the ability to jump in and out of battle to evade and perform hit and run tactics.

So yeah right on PGI, way to make the game ALOT LESS FRICKEN FUN WITHOUT fixing a damn thing.

Also I want my damn money back for my Heavy Metal. The most interesting thing about that mech was that it could mount 5 JJs and jump around like a light mech. Now it is almost worthless to even use JJs on it, let along 10 fricken tons worth of JJs and it is no longer the mech I purchased. You massively nerfed a Cash item and that is unacceptable.

your simple solution overlooks mechs like the Urbanmech that have 2 JJs.