213 replies to this topic

[Ngamok]

Look, LRMs are easy to use sure, I am not going to deny it. But LRMs can be so easily countered as well by multiple game play mechanics. Will 2-3 LRM boats ruin your day? Yes, they will. Will ECM ruin the LRM boats day, yes sir indeed. Will the enemy team with the LRMs getting rolled ruin their day? Yes it will especially if you have some good aggressive brawls on your team. Will good pop tart players who can effectively snipe you to death while ducking behind cover with the new Target Deprivation module kill off LRM users? You betcha.

But you know what. Some matches, none of this goes your way and the LRM guys will eat you up if you don't take action. But that is what's so hard to get going in PUG matches. I can do really well in my LRM mechs but once I get a team who knows how to do what I said above, I get rolled.

Edit: Also my little Kit Fox with 3x AMS and Overload module eats up all Clan LRMs and a good portion of IS and I run 4 tons of ammo so I'll get a lot of it. Plus the ECM. I just wish I could put the AMS Range module on it as well.

Edited by Ngamok, 16 July 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[KharnZor]

I like LRMs. They shorten the TTK when i get into brawling range. A good LRM boat has low kills and high assists.
IN the upper ELO range LRMs aren't really used because because its fairly simple to negate them. There's a lot more in the lower ELO ranges because they haven't figured out of to effectively counter them and most of those guys just want to have fun throwing missile's and **** around.

They aren't OP, deal with it.

[Galathon Redd]

Topics like this make me wish there was a "Dislike" button under the "Like" button. LRMs are fine, they can still only hit you when you are BEING COMPLETELY STUPID in your mech.

[Lyoto Machida]

PanchoTortilla, on 16 July 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

You forgot the 12 airstrikes and 12 artillery barrages, one after another as soon as the cooldown is up.

True...forgot about that. Look on the bright side though...24 strikes is better than the soon to be 48 strikes per game.

Karamarka, on 16 July 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Sounds like a joke to me.

As long as someone is shooting the lock is stable, and you don't need a full lock for the missiles to track. Lock, shoot and even if they lose lock they will still hit most of the time, even better with decay module.

SRS i play lurm warhawk and stormcrow, easiest games i've ever played. When i play NARC quickdraw it's even easier for my team (12-1) stomp fests.

Most maps the ENEMY has to come out in the open, it's not like everyone is in a trench 99% of the game.
UAV and TAG is just a bonus, combined with the fact TAG and Artemis are both line of sight anyway (You don't get either of their bonus without LoS).

You must not PUG much then. Still see guys refuse to lock a target because they don't know how (or just to spite LRM boats, I guess). The game doesn't always auto lock if their aim is all over the place.

[Karamarka]

KharnZor, on 16 July 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

I like LRMs. They shorten the TTK when i get into brawling range. A good LRM boat has low kills and high assists.
IN the upper ELO range LRMs aren't really used because because its fairly simple to negate them. There's a lot more in the lower ELO ranges because they haven't figured out of to effectively counter them and most of those guys just want to have fun throwing missile's and **** around.

They aren't OP, deal with it.

I like how people throw around upper and lower Elo like it dictates every player on your team, even if you constantly pull 800+ DMG games you still get 50-100 dmg people on your team, already 50% of your team dead by LRMS on some maps, esp if they have narc /=

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Biaxialrain, on 16 July 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

No Nicholas, it's not a big deal, can I do the same with an IS mech?

Well, there you go.

Sure, I don't care. If at the same time you give the Clan LRMs the ability to fire in large clusters like IS LRMs do.

You do realize that AMS is EXTRA brutal to Clan LRMs if your entire team is running AMS right?

But of course, NO ONE FREAKING MOUNTS AMS.

[Lyoto Machida]

Karamarka, on 16 July 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

I like how people throw around upper and lower Elo like it dictates every player on your team, even if you constantly pull 800+ DMG games you still get 50-100 dmg people on your team, already 50% of your team dead by LRMS on some maps, esp if they have narc /=

He's probably referring to competitive matches. Where were all the LRMs in the tourney?

[terrycloth]

All I want to know is, why does every team I go up against have 6 mechs with ECM? None of my mechs can even install ECM (Raven 4x, Jenner F, Shadowhawk H). I guess I chose poorly.

I definitely chose poorly putting LRMs on the shadowhawk. I think one game I did 2 damage? The lock never holds for the 20 seconds it takes for the missiles to arrive. Never. So to hit I have to tag the target myself, then hit R to lock (they weren't targetable when untagged because ECM), then wait 2 seconds to lock, then fire, then wait 20 seconds for the missiles to hit, all while somehow keeping them constantly tagged, because if my aim jitters for half a second I lose target and lock.

Oh, and they get an audio warning to dodge after I fire, just in case they didn't see me standing there for 30 seconds trying to get this sequence off. Sigh.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Lyoto Machida, on 16 July 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

He's probably referring to competitive matches. Where were all the LRMs in the tourney?

TONS OF LRMS IN THE TOURNEY, EVERYONE HAD THEM, THEY ARE OP.

The derps said so.

terrycloth, on 16 July 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

All I want to know is, why does every team I go up against have 6 mechs with ECM? None of my mechs can even install ECM (Raven 4x, Jenner F, Shadowhawk H). I guess I chose poorly.

I definitely chose poorly putting LRMs on the shadowhawk. I think one game I did 2 damage? The lock never holds for the 20 seconds it takes for the missiles to arrive. Never. So to hit I have to tag the target myself, then hit R to lock (they weren't targetable when untagged because ECM), then wait 2 seconds to lock, then fire, then wait 20 seconds for the missiles to hit, all while somehow keeping them constantly tagged, because if my aim jitters for half a second I lose target and lock.

Oh, and they get an audio warning to dodge after I fire, just in case they didn't see me standing there for 30 seconds trying to get this sequence off. Sigh.

LRMs are a total feast or famine weapon system. I think the whole thing needs to be trashed starting with ECM. Then rebuilt to have soft counters that make sense and don't dictate how the entire match goes.

The bads get killed repeatedly and whine on the boards.

The goods don't bother with AMS or LRMs because they are a total non-issue.

It's a total mess of a weapon system.

But the sheer fact that people can't look in the mirror and realize that they die to LRMs due to their own mistakes, is just sad.

[Sprouticus]

Roland, on 16 July 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

I think that the primary factor that leads to LRM's being virtually impossible to balance, hinges on the requirement for LRM shooters to maintain a lock throughout the flight path.

This makes LRM's into support weapons which are almost entirely dependent upon spotters being competent, and thus makes usage of them in non-organized groups a crapshoot... because once you fire them, you're basically at the mercy of whoever is holding that target. This introduces a large degree of randomness into the liklihood of whether those missiles will hit.

This, in turn, creates a huge weakness for LRM's, and then necessitates them to be strengthened to try and make up for the fact that so many shots will miss a target even if that target isn't under cover.

But then those buffs result in cases, as we've seen in various past stages of LRM balancing, where individual LRM volleys are crazy strong... and cases where a spotter DOES hold a target result in potentially obliterating that target with impunity.


Because of all this, the first change I'd make would be to revert LRM's to their original functionality, where once they are fired they will track the target, even if you lose lock. This will have a fairly substantial impact on how LRM's are used:
1) First, it will enable LRM shooters to make much more effective use of cover, since they will be able to do things like peek out of cover, get a lock, and fire a volley... then retreat under cover while those missiles fly to the target. This is how it worked in MW4, and missiles were much more satisfying to use (while not at all overpowered).
2) It will put control over LRM damage much more in the hands of the shooter, as whether or not missiles hit the target will be almost entirely dependent upon the target's location at the time of the shot, and whether he will be able to take cover. This will greatly reduce the cases where you fire a bunch of missiles, then something beyond your control happens and the spotter loses the target... and then your missiles are wasted (which is a majorly frustrating aspect of LRM's currently, in PUG games).

That change will make LRM's into weapons which, while still holding a supporting role and having a unique usage pattern compared to other direct fire weapons, will be more in line with other weapon's capabilities.

This will likely enable LRM's themselves to be weakened on an individual basis, such that boated LRM's will not be totally devastating (which they would, if you only implemented the first change).

The result of these changes will be LRM's which are generally useful in many different situations, and which produce a much more consistent damage output for any given match.

This consistent damage output will, in turn, be FAR easier to balance than the current situation with LRM's, where we see wide swings between total garbage and total dominance, largely independent from what the shooter himself is necessarily doing.

Finally, this consistent damage output will also enable LRM's to function as support weapons, combined with OTHER weapons as well on a mech's loadout. Since they will be producing reasonable, consistent damage, they won't really require as much complete dedication when using them.. You'll be able to bring a few missiles to support other weapons, without committing your mech to being "a missile mech".

And what would NARC and TAG be used for then?

[Karamarka]

Lyoto Machida, on 16 July 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

He's probably referring to competitive matches. Where were all the LRMs in the tourney?

He should of said that than? BTW in Comp you don't need LRM cause focus fire is da power.

[Lyoto Machida]

Karamarka, on 16 July 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

He should of said that than? BTW in Comp you don't need LRM cause focus fire is da power.

Well, that's kind of the point on why this thread is so dumb.

Better players know how to avoid LRMs with ease (for the most part). The ones dying to LRMs and complaining about them on here need to "git gud" and/or "learn to play."

[Ngamok]

Sprouticus, on 16 July 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

And what would NARC and TAG be used for then?

See that's the thing. Unless you bring your own TAG, you have to rely on your team to do the locking. In good games with good players, if you are using TAG yourself, you are leaving yourself open for those good players that will core you. NARC on the other hand you mostly rely on teammates that are up closer to actually hit people with NARC (I run NARC on like 3 mechs total, Clan + IS). If none of your teammates is running neither, you have to rely on good hard locks to get your missiles off unless you are going to go ahead and get within brawl range and do it yourself.

[Gambino87]

MetalGandalph, on 16 July 2014 - 02:14 AM, said:

The new Lrms are a "**** you" from PGI to the competitive scene.
Seriously i dont understand the " 80 dmg guided pinpoint dmg to my CT ****"
My daughter is 16 and she said that the game looks cool. She never plays this kind of games.
So i put her in tutorial and testing grounds with an lrm boat.
The first 2 games AFTER THE TUTORIAL havent been that good but in the third she made 700 dmg and 3 kills.

There is no discussion that LRMS are No SKill weapons.

ROLL BACK LRMS NOW!

LOL U MAD BRO???

[Mercules]

MetalGandalph, on 16 July 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

No it requires aiming skills. lrms dont

LRMs require remarkable timing and damn near intuition to get them to hit... unless you are aiming at a moron. If LRMs are that effective for your daughter either you have some REALLY good players on your team holding locks, spotting, and/or NARCing or really BAD opposition who stood in the open.


"Did you bring AMS?"
"No, did you?"

Quxudica, on 16 July 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

Direct fire weapons require more thinking, considering you need to put yourself in actual danger to use them.

Walk towards red blip. Push button.

LRM mechs are typically in danger. For one thing they are often forced to face in one direction for a VERY long time to guide the missiles in. Secondly the majority of their weapon systems are not able to damage a spider hugging their face. To a lot of you people skill seems to equal having your mouse set up so you are fairly steady with it. That is what it boils down to.

See... now you are going to go, "Well you have to position yourself so you don't take to much damage and time your attacks and rolling so you can deal damage and spread the damage you are getting. You need to time your cresting or jump for that quick accurate shot...." and so on. To which I need to point out that an LRM user first has to have someone else skilled and able to hold the lock for them, then fire and count to 6 for near max range shots holding their torso still. For 400m the time is 4 seconds to put missiles ON the target, about 2 to lock and about 2 to travel. That whole time you are pointing RIGHT AT THEM. The LONGEST laser duration is 1.5 seconds, less than half that time. You can be shot twice by lasers before you lock and get your missiles to hit. With a Gauss the person shoots you, ducks into cover to break your lock, comes out, shoot you, ducks into cover to break your lock.

LRMs are not easy to use... unless your opponent is a moron and stands there and takes it.

Karamarka, on 16 July 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Just a quick question from a neutral, how do they require teamwork? Serious question. You are guaranteed locks in a 12v12....... the game makes you auto lock most of the time (Teammates)...... dont get your bs defence

Those never last long enough for the missiles to reach the target. Or, if you are like me being the last mech alive in my Commando I saw 4 mechs launch LRMs at me and ran up under a Direwolf on the other side. He took most of the LRMs but blew me to pieces, but I was hoping they would get a teamkill out of it.

The only way the locks stick is if someone decides they are a battleship and stands trading broadsides at which point either they shut down, lock lost, die, lock lost, or kill their target, lock moot.

Karamarka, on 16 July 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

As long as someone is shooting the lock is stable, and you don't need a full lock for the missiles to track. Lock, shoot and even if they lose lock they will still hit most of the time, even better with decay module.

Only against stupid people who back up straight instead of moving perpendicular to the missile path.

[Lyoto Machida]

Gambino87, on 16 July 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

LOL U MAD BRO???

[Odins Fist]

I want the DEVs to paint Smiley Faces on the ends of LRMs and show them sticking out of the launch tubes..

Also I want the explosion sounds that LRMs make when they connect to Mech target changed to the sound of a cackling witch..!!

DO IT NOW..!!!!

Edited by Odins Fist, 16 July 2014 - 01:34 PM.

[Armament]

Tricepticon, on 16 July 2014 - 02:38 AM, said:

3/10 obvious troll first red flag was when you said "competitive" Never heard of you. If by some chance this is a real post, I really feel bad for you son.

You don't have to be known to be competitive. On topic, LRMs are still useless lol.

Edited by Armament, 16 July 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[Mavairo]

What this thread is really about.

Daddy has been playing the game for years.

Daughter shows up in one day, and puts out a better performance than he ever has, with an inferior mech.

Has to find something else to blame other than his own skill set, and his daughter's superior positioning and strategy. Can't look let himself look like even more of a jack ass than he already does by making some comment about being beat by a 16 year old girl in her first 5 games.

Who, will be playing against middling and mostly lower ELO players... ie the Underhive where it's easier.
Daddy unfortunately isn't smart enough to realize his daughter is in a lower bracket than he is unless he let her use his account..... in which case, well Daddy I'm sorry, but you're part of the PBR Swilling Steering Wheel Underhive.

The Keyboard Faceroll heroes...


Because if your daughter took your account out for a few games, loaded up on LRMs and fired off and got strong results Repeatedly (not just ONE round but repeatedly) then well, that says more about your ELO play level to anyone that actually plays this game, than it does about the power of LRMs.

I bet she could have taken a 2 PPC, 2 LPL build into combat and probably at least beat your score.

And no, I don't use LRMs myself. And no one in my lances do either.

Edited by Mavairo, 16 July 2014 - 02:08 PM.

[Mercules]

Armament, on 16 July 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

You don't have to be known to be competitive. On topic, LRMs are still useless lol.

Very true, however most "competitive" players have come to understand the strengths and weaknesses of LRMs and don't make Chicken Little posts about how broken they are.