110 replies to this topic

[WarZ]

Mystere, on 16 July 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

Something being the "best" does not mean it's "overpowered". Otherwise, we will end up with mechs, weapons, and equipment with all the exact same stats, and only being different in terms of visual and sound effects.

What exactly is making the Timber OP ? I run the thing. The only thing that makes it good is its variety of hardpoints with omnipod changeouts. Basically the pilot of the timberwolf can configure it in such a way with weapons that fit their playstyle better. You end up with a mech you can be more in tune with. In which case you can do better with it.

However that does NOT make a mech OP. It just makes it flexible.

Also, the downside to all those pretty hardpoints is that its forced to run the large 375 engine. For those people who do not own this mech, you have NO IDEA how much that thing restricts your build options. Its very hard to make good meta and/or cheese that you can EASILY make on IS mechs. Dual gauss ? Kinda, ammo deficient and no backup weapons. Dual AC20? Nope. Gauss & 2 erppc ? Kinda, if you like an EXTREMELY hot mech with LIMITED ammo. Heck, dual AC10 ? Kinda, again ammo limited, and/or you lack backup weapons.

Actually I think that is what people have the problem with / cant comprehend. That big engine gives it great speed for a heavy. BUT, you lose out on builds.

I can perform easily as well in my cataphract as I can in my timberwolf.

I'm personally actually happy they restrict us to that big engine. Because I enjoy having some speed in that mech. If I had the option to lower the engine I probably would in order to get some of those crazier builds on it.

[Carrion Hound]

I see a level of broken record here.

What ever happened to patience?

You realize they are slowly being released right?

Good god you people argue and complain about crap entirely too much.

[bluepiglet]

MadPanda, on 16 July 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Clan mechs are more powerful than IS mechs. I don't know why anyone would argue otherwise.

The ones enjoy clubbing and does not want to see their hakapik shrink.....

[Mystere]

MadPanda, on 16 July 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Clan mechs are more powerful than IS mechs. I don't know why anyone would argue otherwise.

I guess I will have to ask of you the same thing:

Mystere, on 16 July 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

So, do you have any detailed end-to-end analysis worthy of a scientific journal that you can present that definitively shows that Clan mechs are OP?

And by "detailed end-to-end analysis", I mean:

• chassis analysis, including all variants and IS/Clan configurability
  
• weapons analysis, including damage, rate of fire, duration, burst vs single-shot, weight, slots, ammo, impulse
  
• equipment options analysis, especially those that affect speed, agility, and heat efficiency
  
• time and spatial-based dynamic models of how the above interact in 1 vs. 1, 1 vs. N, lance vs. star, and team vs. team encounters

[Mcgral18]

bluepiglet, on 16 July 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

The ones enjoy clubbing and does not want to see their hakapik shrink.....

You still haven't answered my question.

What makes them OP? Give me reasons, numbers and facts.

[BoomDog]

There's some funky math going on here.

An ERLL doesn't fire 3 times for every 2 shots from a CERLL.

All clan lasers out DPS their IS "counterparts". I use quotes because the range difference is so huge that a C ERML has the same range as an IS LL.

Regardless, we'll not know for sure if the duration of the beams counters all of the other advantages clan lasers have until we get Clan vs. IS.

[Mcgral18]

BoomDog, on 16 July 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

There's some funky math going on here.

An ERLL doesn't fire 3 times for every 2 shots from a CERLL.

All clan lasers out DPS their IS "counterparts". I use quotes because the range difference is so huge that a C ERML has the same range as an IS LL.

Regardless, we'll not know for sure if the duration of the beams counters all of the other advantages clan lasers have until we get Clan vs. IS.

You laser info is wrong. Only the ERML outdamages the ML during the 1 second burn time. The ERSL and SL are equal, all others are worse.

cERLL is at 7.5, ERLL is at 9.

ERML is at ~5.38, ML is at 5

ERSL is at 4, SL is at 4

Don't even get started on the Pulse lasers...

[BoomDog]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

You laser info is wrong. Only the ERML outdamages the ML during the 1 second burn time. The ERSL and SL are equal, all others are worse.

cERLL is at 7.5, ERLL is at 9.

ERML is at ~5.38, ML is at 5

ERSL is at 4, SL is at 4

Don't even get started on the Pulse lasers...

Smurfy's is wrong?

[Mcgral18]

BoomDog, on 16 July 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

Smurfy's is wrong?

DPS and damage in a second are two different things. Comparing DPS is pretty useless. Did you know the AC2 used to have 4 DPS? It was useless.

It's better to compare the damage both lasers deal in the same time period, IE, 1 second.

Only 1 Clan laser is superior in that regard.

[WarZ]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

You still haven't answered my question.

What makes them OP? Give me reasons, numbers and facts.

This. I'm asking for the same thing. However all we hear is people whine it's OP. But little reason why it is. And if they give a reason, THEY DO NOT give the disadvantage associated with the perceived advantage.

I'm fairly positive that very few of the people who whine about it being OP actually own one. Hell, they probably dont even smurphy it for fun, to look over options available.

Maybe the real issue is that the mech is so popular from the lore. Most fans wanted one. Theres multiples in every match. People are getting killed by TW's often. Probably mostly because they are ALL OVER THE PLACE. Because they are popular, not necessarily because they are OP.

I enjoy the mech. I consider it solid. OP, I dont see it.

[BoomDog]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

DPS and damage in a second are two different things. Comparing DPS is pretty useless. Did you know the AC2 used to have 4 DPS? It was useless.

It's better to compare the damage both lasers deal in the same time period, IE, 1 second.

Only 1 Clan laser is superior in that regard.

Gonna have to disagree with you on that. It appears that you're adjusting the math to fit your argument. DPS isn't useless. I remember the 4 DPS Ac/2... they had to nerf it because it was wrecking everybody for almost no heat.

[Mcgral18]

BoomDog, on 16 July 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

Gonna have to disagree with you on that. It appears that you're adjusting the math to fit your argument. DPS isn't useless. I remember the 4 DPS Ac/2... they had to nerf it because it was wrecking everybody for almost no heat.

ALMOST NO HEAT!?!

I think you mean one of the hottest weapons in the game!


Besides, DPS weapons are bad in MWO. They mean you have to stare down your opponent for longer than you would have to.

It's not really twisting the math either. They deal less damage than IS lasers in the same time span. IS lasers, which are easy to spread, are even easier to spread in the case of the ERLL and pulse lasers.

ERML has marginally more damage, less than .4 damage advantage over the ML in the same time span, with a nice range boost.


In MWO, DPS is a pretty worthless stat from everything I've seen. You don't want to stare down your opponent, you want to deal as much damage in as short a period as possible, to resume being in cover or using a shield.

[Baddicus Wolf]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

You laser info is wrong. Only the ERML outdamages the ML during the 1 second burn time. The ERSL and SL are equal, all others are worse.

cERLL is at 7.5, ERLL is at 9.

ERML is at ~5.38, ML is at 5

ERSL is at 4, SL is at 4

Don't even get started on the Pulse lasers...

That's a very nice theory. Here are some hard stats.

IS Med Laser - Fired 21,246, Hit 19,161, Dmg 48,042 --- 2.26 dmg/shot or 2.507 dmg/hit
CERML ------- Fired 7,924, Hit 7,072, Dmg 25,350 ------ 3.199 dmg/shot or 3.584 dmg/hit

IS MPL - Fired 713, Hit 668, Dmg 2,887 -------- 4.049 dmg/shot or 4.321 dmg/hit
CMPL - Fired 3,703, Hit 3,207, Dmg 13,731 --- 3.708 dmg/shot or 4.281 dmg/hit

IS ERLL - Fired 18,054, Hit 16,171, Dmg 84,331 -- 4.671 dmg/shot or 5.214 dmg/hit
CERLL -- Fired 3,957, Hit 3,569, Dmg 21,157 ----- 5.346 dmg/shot or 5.927 dmg/hit

I haven't used CLPL yet to compare that category.

The only reason that my CMPL stats are lower than the IS version is that they have CRAZY range and I take way more shots with them than I ever did with IS MPL. And even though they are lower, they are not significantly lower to compensate for the added range.

Bottom line is that the Clan lasers are better across the board.

[TB Freelancer]

Bhelogan, on 16 July 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

Because if you don't own them, you don't know how their mechanics work and you don't know their weaknesses. It's that fear of the unknown thing. Once there out for C-Bills, all the p2win crowd will be like, 'Oh, it isn't one hit auto win OMG OP No Skillz, like i've been crying for months'.

Nothing else new to see here, move along.

meh...even knowing reality won't change opinions now. Around here it seems like once a group sets its mind on a belief, they are impervious to facts, knowledge, reality, reason, etc.

[Mystere]

TB Freelancer, on 16 July 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

meh...even knowing reality won't change opinions now. Around here it seems like once a group sets its mind on a belief, they are impervious to facts, knowledge, reality, reason, etc.

Just like religion.

[Mcgral18]

Baddicus Wolf, on 16 July 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

That's a very nice theory. Here are some hard stats.

IS Med Laser - Fired 21,246, Hit 19,161, Dmg 48,042 --- 2.26 dmg/shot or 2.507 dmg/hit
CERML ------- Fired 7,924, Hit 7,072, Dmg 25,350 ------ 3.199 dmg/shot or 3.584 dmg/hit

IS MPL - Fired 713, Hit 668, Dmg 2,887 -------- 4.049 dmg/shot or 4.321 dmg/hit
CMPL - Fired 3,703, Hit 3,207, Dmg 13,731 --- 3.708 dmg/shot or 4.281 dmg/hit

IS ERLL - Fired 18,054, Hit 16,171, Dmg 84,331 -- 4.671 dmg/shot or 5.214 dmg/hit
CERLL -- Fired 3,957, Hit 3,569, Dmg 21,157 ----- 5.346 dmg/shot or 5.927 dmg/hit

I haven't used CLPL yet to compare that category.

The only reason that my CMPL stats are lower than the IS version is that they have CRAZY range and I take way more shots with them than I ever did with IS MPL. And even though they are lower, they are not significantly lower to compensate for the added range.

Bottom line is that the Clan lasers are better across the board.

That's the range you're talking about.

This is damage I'm talking about. The damage decays linearly after the optimal range to twice the optimal range.


The Clans do have a large advantage in range, and how often do you actually fire your lasers in range? I know I'll still fire my MLs until 500M, where it's doing less than 1 damage. Similarly for the LL at 850M.


So, let's actually calculate the Pulse lasers...although do we calculate for the 1 second, or the .6 seconds?

Let's do it per second.

MPL 10, cMPL 8.22

LPL 17.6, cLPL is 9.07

SPL 6.8, cSPL 5.86


More effective damage than the cPLs since you deal it in just over a half second, while the cPLs need .75, .9 or 1.3 seconds to deal that damage.

Range only makes a difference if you let it. Damage means little if you keep hitting shield arms, it's as good as wasted.

[Biaxialrain]

Ah, no.

Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf = easy mode.

I've seen countless mediocre players that are now putting out high damage numbers with those two mechs.

More damage, further range, no minimal range LRMs, I mean, come on, what's next, armor piercing ammo?

Stop complaining about 3/10 of a second longer duration vs IS LL.

Funny.

[Naelbis]

While the greater ranges of clan weapons are annoying, they are not game breaking on any map we currently have (Alpine can be iffy though). The only real changes I would like to see to clan mechs are a small reduction to the speed and agility of the Timberwolf (maybe a small hitbox adjustment) and an across the board increase to clan's base heat after losing one of their side torsos. Losing a chunk of your engine should cripple you even if it doesn't kill. That would alleviate most of my minor gripes with clan mechs as an exclusive IS pilot.

[BoomDog]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

ALMOST NO HEAT!?!

I think you mean one of the hottest weapons in the game!

In MWO, DPS is a pretty worthless stat from everything I've seen. You don't want to stare down your opponent, you want to deal as much damage in as short a period as possible, to resume being in cover or using a shield.

I'm referring to when the AC2 was first introduced. It had 4DPS and virtually no heat. There were mechs running around firing 4 AC2s practically non-stop. It used to kick like crazy too. That's when they added heat.

Why do you keep picking one second? Seems arbitrary. Why not 1.5 seconds? Because it changes all your numbers to favoring Clan tech.

[Mcgral18]

BoomDog, on 16 July 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

I'm referring to when the AC2 was first introduced. It had 4DPS and virtually no heat. There were mechs running around firing 4 AC2s practically non-stop. It used to kick like crazy too. That's when they added heat.

Why do you keep picking one second? Seems arbitrary. Why not 1.5 seconds? Because it changes all your numbers to favoring Clan tech.

Well, IS lasers burn at 1 second. So, that's why I pick it. Clan lasers deal less damage in the same time frame as Clan lasers, ERML aside. That's the point this is proving.

Sure, Clan lasers deal more damage period, but that is nearly impossible to focus. Wasted damage on many occasions.

And no, AC2s always generated 2 heat per second. They fired twice a second, and generated 1 heat each shot. Ghost heat on 6 AC2s was less than 1 heat, they are just hot as hell weapons. And they were never scary weapons, since they spread their damage so damned much.

Biaxialrain, on 16 July 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Ah, no.

Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf = easy mode.

I've seen countless mediocre players that are now putting out high damage numbers with those two mechs.

More damage, further range, no minimal range LRMs, I mean, come on, what's next, armor piercing ammo?

Stop complaining about 3/10 of a second longer duration vs IS LL.

Funny.

Have you ever used a Timber Wolf? I haven't.

Also, 50% longer, half a second longer, and it takes 1.2 seconds to deal the same damage as the ISLL.

This means more wasted damage, assuming your opponent is half decent and knows to twist laser damage.