97 replies to this topic

[Roland]

As long as you have people who do the exact same stupid things every single time they play a map, and rush to the same area just because "that's where you go", then you're not addressing the real cause of the problem.

If people are too stupid to actually realize that their getting stomped is a result of them doing the same mistakes over and over again, then they're basically a lost cause. The problem isn't the game. The problem is that they are imbeciles.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Roland, on 18 July 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

As long as you have people who do the exact same stupid things every single time they play a map, and rush to the same area just because "that's where you go", then you're not addressing the real cause of the problem.

If people are too stupid to actually realize that their getting stomped is a result of them doing the same mistakes over and over again, then they're basically a lost cause. The problem isn't the game. The problem is that they are imbeciles.

Exactly. Instead of learning from their mistake(s) they get defensive and start throwing out insults.

NOOBRUSH MIDDLE! GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO! ECM pincer, stomp, gg.

[Deathlike]

There are plenty of "stomps" are not what they initially seem to be. It comes with the "comeback effect" that rarely happens, but can happen.

Learning to target (not just pushing the "R" button") is a critical thing. This is how you learn to generate effective focus fire. While you may end up doing the "awful thing" of "kill stealing", it makes your team's job of cleaning up much easier. There is less guesswork to be done when you know the legs or side torsos are soft... so you don't have to waste a shot. Efficiency is important.

Even in a 12-0 roflstomp scenario, there's ALMOST ALWAYS some targets (at least 1 or 2) that could have been put down had focus fire been applied properly. If focus fire was done properly, many games could end being closer to 12-6 or better, just because more often than not, half the team is in not so hot shape. Even if the damage was dealt (200+ average for the team), it's the lack of focus fire that doesn't net you the key kill that tips the match in favor of one side or another.

So, ultimately a lot of the lopsided victories are simply "learn to target" and "not just knowing how to push R".

[Sandpit]

Kjudoon, on 18 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

I fail to see the fun I sucked out.

Respawn against superior opponents with often superior builds and probably superior tactical communication increases fun how? You get respawn, the same jerks roflstomping you will just lather, rinse, repeat. Now add to this the suicide punks who make mechs designed to basically troll people... they're not going to be a picnic either.

I'm just warning you that it would be coming and I'd be backing away from that and locking the door behind.

Of course, if you want an 'opt out' function of it you double the necessary queues needed to feed that beast and I don't know if we have the player base to support it at this time.

He's just saying we should look at optional modes instead of shifting the entire game into one mode. That's been one of the biggest problems with MWO from day 1. Private matches have alleviated that a bit but, to me anyhow, this in online gaming 101. You offer a wide variety of ways to play your game so that more of an audience is interested in it. Casual players have no desire to play "competitively" against 12mans, old Btech players don't want respawn, some players just want CoD in robots. Instead of trying to get all those different types of players to get along in the same game, there should be optional modes. At the very least private matches should include the ability to switch on and off all sorts of options.

That way casual player A and his buddies can duek it out with all the respawn they want in private matches
12 mans can compete in hyper-competitive settings
Leagues can run according to their rules.
so on and so forth.

[Kjudoon]

If Respawn is a whole different set of queues, fine, have at it. I won't be there. Kinda like why I like Skirmish mode. I don't play it save by accident if someone else in my group drops us in it (I usually ask for it to be disabled) because I am the jerk who will fight till the last man alive then force the game of hide and seek for my moral victory.

My biggest concern is that the player base is too small to handle 3 queues of no spawn (solo, lance, company) with duplicate respawn queues, and repeating the process for Arena style and CW style.

That's 12 different queues at minimum. How long you willing to wait for a match? Are you willing to have 4 mechs locked out for an entire hour if you suck and die in the first 5 minutes 4 times (yes people can manage it)?

The big thing I'm cautioning is working through the consequences as we currently have them and what needs be done for this to work properly.

[Sandpit]

Kjudoon, on 19 July 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

If Respawn is a whole different set of queues, fine, have at it. I won't be there. Kinda like why I like Skirmish mode. I don't play it save by accident if someone else in my group drops us in it (I usually ask for it to be disabled) because I am the jerk who will fight till the last man alive then force the game of hide and seek for my moral victory.

My biggest concern is that the player base is too small to handle 3 queues of no spawn (solo, lance, company) with duplicate respawn queues, and repeating the process for Arena style and CW style.

That's 12 different queues at minimum. How long you willing to wait for a match? Are you willing to have 4 mechs locked out for an entire hour if you suck and die in the first 5 minutes 4 times (yes people can manage it)?

The big thing I'm cautioning is working through the consequences as we currently have them and what needs be done for this to work properly.

that's why private matches allowing those options would be a better way to go in my opinion. It doesn't split the queues any more and allows more options for players and leagues.

[Kjudoon]

PGI will not de monetize their moneymaker. That's the catch.

[DoomEngine]

Scratx, on 18 July 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Guuuuys.... there will always be stomps. All the matchmaking in the world can only give you a best guess of what a fair match will be. It doesn't know that player A is drunk, or that player B is undergoing PMS, player C has an impacted tooth, player D is having a migraine, player E is feeling like being a troll, player F is actually not player F but his young brother, player G's internet connection is flakey, player H is trying out new builds, player I has a cat pestering him for food, player J's wife just told him to go get the groceries, player K's smoking pot, player L's trying to hold nature's call back for a little longer, player M's baby just decided to start screaming, player N's chair gave the ghost and he injured himself, player O is switching between MWO and web browsing, player P is chatting with friends at the same time he plays, player Q decided to be a griefer, player R is off his anti-depressants, player S has the stomach flu, player T is in a thunderstorm, player U is sleepy, player V's feet are aching from his jogging, player W is waiting for the girlfriend to show up and player X is having his door knocked down by SWAT who got the address wrong.

Can you reasonably say the matchmaker has any chance to figure any of the above out?

this post should have closed this thread.

[Sandpit]

DoomEngine, on 19 July 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

this post should have closed this thread.

if the thread had asked how to "stop" stomps I'd agree with you. Since it asked how to mitigate them, not so much. The OP isn't asking to "remove" them, the OP is asking how PGI can improve the MM system to help reduce them even more.

[Lykaon]

lockwoodx, on 18 July 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

Actually it was evil premades causing stomps before PGI implemented separate queues. The new group queue is far more refined and solo queuing is actually fun again.

Wow...

So fun is watching 10 out of 12 team members dig a hole so deep they won't be seen actually fighting for 90% of the match?

Fun is being shot at in the deployment zone? by team members!

Fun is after being destroyed observing through a team members mech to see that they thought it was a brilliant idea to build a Timberwolf with 2 A-LRM20s and 2 A-LRM10 and NOTHING else.No tag no secondary weapons nothing but 4 LRM launchers with 8 tons ammo.Oh,and they keep groupfiring all 4 for loads of ghostheat!

Fun is playing a conquest match with a PUG commander ordering players to not cap! Seriously? if the enemy has 4 caps and we have 1 and our team can't fight their way out of a soggy paper bag NOT CAPPING is NOT a sound Strategy.

Fun is watching your entire team peel of at their own seperate best speeds leaving 300 tons of direwolf in the dust and having to listen to them complain about losing a battle when they were short 300 tons of direwolf due to not having the good sense to wait to engage?

Fun is making 3 kills (the 3 only kills made) and having a damage score higher than 8 combined scores of team mates and still losing because more than 50% of your team can't break 100 damage?

It's time to face facts the solo queue is DERP town! if you think running around like a chicken with it's head lopped off is fun YOU BELONG THERE!

If you find it as frustrating as I do at times I highly recommend finding a player association to join.

I can honestly say I have more fun losing in the group queue than winning in the solo queue.At least in the group queue you know you out played (or were out played by) other humans with functional brains.

Winning in the solo queue is more about what side had a higher concentration of DERP.

Edited by Lykaon, 19 July 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[Sandpit]

Lykaon, on 19 July 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Wow...

So fun is watching 10 out of 12 team members dig a hole so deep they won't be seen actually fighting for 90% of the match?

Fun is being shot at in the deployment zone? by team members!

Fun is after being destroyed observing through a team members mech to see that they thought it was a brilliant idea to build a Timberwolf with 2 A-LRM20s and 2 A-LRM10 and NOTHING else.No tag no secondary weapons nothing but 4 LRM launchers with 8 tons ammo.Oh,and they keep groupfiring all 4 for loads of ghostheat!

Fun is playing a conquest match with a PUG commander ordering players to not cap! Seriously? if the enemy has 4 caps and we have 1 and our team can't fight their way out of a soggy paper bag NOT CAPPING is NOT a sound Strategy.

Fun is watching your entire team peel of at their own seperate best speeds leaving 300 tons of direwolf in the dust and having to listen to them complain about losing a battle when they were short 300 tons of direwolf due to not having the good sense to wait to engage?

Fun is making 3 kills (the 3 only kills made) and having a damage score higher than 8 combined scores of team mates and still losing because more than 50% of your team can't break 100 damage?

It's time to face facts the solo queue is DERP town! if you think running around like a chicken with it's head lopped off is fun YOU BELONG THERE!

If you find it as frustrating as I do at times I highly recommend finding a player association to join.

I can honestly say I have more fun losing in the group queue than winning in the solo queue.At least in the group queue you know you out played (or were out played by) other humans with functional brains.

Winning in the solo queue is more about what side had a higher concentration of DERP.

which just proves why we need more options for the different types of players here

[Lykaon]

Sandpit, on 19 July 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

which just proves why we need more options for the different types of players here

I'm good.

I play in derp town while waiting for a team to form up or when I want to screw around with field testing builds.And once a group forms I'm actually playing an interesting game.

But if solos want more candy give it to them.

Free respawns for DERP town! give the solo queue whatever it wants.

Respawns...sure

More C-bills why not those 12 flamer Novas don't come cheap!

More XP...give em enough to choke on it won't matter what they unlock to derp around in it's still derping

No premades at all? sure (not that it happens much anyhow I have yet to drop in the solo queue when grouped with 2-3 others.)

Given bonus points for friendly fire they are already experts at it may as well reward them!


Make the solo queue DERP paradise and the group queue will be nearly devoid of idiots!

[RLBell]

Stomps are a problem, because there are people like me who would like to play in groups, but are not very good pilots. I like to play in groups enough that I will put up with three or four stomps in a row, just to keep playing with my online friends, before I sigh and call it a day.

A possible way to cushion stomps is that the server tips the tables for the underdogs with every unanswered kill after the first. As the tide shifts back, the tables get leveled. A possible modification is as the better team scores unanswered kill, after unanswered kill, the underdogs get increased heat sink efficiency and reduced weapon cool down time. For a stronger response, at the same time, the better team experiences reduced heat sink efficiency and increased cool down times. This will encourage elite stompers to leave crippled enemies alive, so they can get the benefits of the tilted table, as they die, but that is harder to do than a straight stomp.

[Lykaon]

RLBell, on 19 July 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

Stomps are a problem, because there are people like me who would like to play in groups, but are not very good pilots. I like to play in groups enough that I will put up with three or four stomps in a row, just to keep playing with my online friends, before I sigh and call it a day.

A possible way to cushion stomps is that the server tips the tables for the underdogs with every unanswered kill after the first. As the tide shifts back, the tables get leveled. A possible modification is as the better team scores unanswered kill, after unanswered kill, the underdogs get increased heat sink efficiency and reduced weapon cool down time. For a stronger response, at the same time, the better team experiences reduced heat sink efficiency and increased cool down times. This will encourage elite stompers to leave crippled enemies alive, so they can get the benefits of the tilted table, as they die, but that is harder to do than a straight stomp.

Why would you want such a barrier to self improvement in this game?

The key to success in the group queue (and in MWo ) is coordinated team play.

(also why should players playing well be penalized for good play?)

When a team gains the upper hand in kills quickly it is almost always due to one of two events.

One: The players that got killed screwed up.They wandered into a killzone blundered over a rise into a gunline or wandered to far from cover to correct a manuver mistake.

Two: the enemy team had a solid plan and it was executed efficiently!

To win more you need to learn one of two things

one: how not to manuver poorly and blunder around.

two: How to do your part in executing an effective team plan.



The one major problem in the group queue is the team with the largest number of players on the same comm network has the edge in coordination.And as any long time group player knows Coordination is key to victory.

Fix this issue and we have a more level playing field but until then know that if you lost in the group queue you lost to players who played well.

Edited by Lykaon, 19 July 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Kjudoon]

You know I love stomping around with you in our LRMboats RL, but I don't think this level of artifice will help in the long run and would only skew the issue worse, no matter how much I may like having this benefit. I'm more for solving root causes than adding new buffs/nerfs to game play.

What is it that is the root cause of stomps in the Group Queue? Bad Elo matching via 'camouflage' of good players among bad and using the average. In the solo queue, it's usually a case of bad tactics/strategy/builds losing to the better amplified by lack of communication and a 'me first/screw you' mentality.

I don't know if there is a way around that though unless you find a way to start weighting/handicapping how balanced/unbalanced it is. There is a thread out there on how Elo really works, check it out and see what you think.
http://mwomercs.com/...24#entry3571024

That said, I sense an even better name for the Solo Queue starting with "Derptown" and we have the group queue becoming 'StompTown".

Edited by Kjudoon, 19 July 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Chagatay]

Answer is just to tighten ranking bins further and increase waiting times for matches.....not sure if people want that though. Many times there are matches in my medium that are just not winnable as 2-3 people run off to suicide leading to a quick 0-3 edge. If I have several such matches in a row I just hop in the ole 3d and destroy stuff.

Just how it is.

Edited by Chagatay, 19 July 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Chagatay, on 19 July 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Answer is just to tighten ranking bins further and increase waiting times for matches.....not sure if people want that though. Many times there are matches in my medium that are just not winnable as 2-3 people run off to suicide leading to a quick 0-3 edge. If I have several such matches in a row I just hop in the ole 3d and destroy stuff.

Just how it is.

That is a good short term solution and will work fine for Derptown but does not deal with the Elo camouflage in Stomptown.

[Chagatay]

^ not sure where all the negativity for the solo queue comes from but it is very disheartening....it would work for group queues as well (just might be ages for certain groups to find matches)

[Kjudoon]

Pugging is the best gauge of individual skill but the least enjoyable way to play. Once you get into a supportive group that's there to have fun and do well, you realize how the game is eminently superior in groups. PGI has wrecked this by forcing all groups into one queue dominated by tryhards, trolls and pros or to play as a solo pugger... the very reason why most people joined a group so they could stop experiencing the suck that is Solo Pugging.

There must be a third queue for Lance and smaller with opt-in solos, just like the "Mech Smash" crowd was culled out with Skirmish mode. Assault got incredibly better and so did conquest.

I have no problem if you also want to institute a similar queue for a Respawn mode too. I will not be there, but would love it if those who really want to fight that way have that option. It will probably improve the Single Spawn Lance Queue even more.

The stomps will still happen at times because humans are still involved, better builds, tactics, play and luck will never be completely removed, but I suspect it will help in that department plus allowing people to play more the way THEY enjoy it.

[AssaultPig]

Stomps are a structural fact of the game; being down 2-3 mechs as a result of disconnects and/or early deaths is a massive disadvantage. I've often thought it would be interesting to know how often the team that gets the first one or two kills goes on to win the match.

I think it might be fun if, rather than getting a single match each time you queued up, you got a series of three and the teams shuffled each time.

So you'd queue, get a 12 on 12 match, and play it as you normally would. Then the teams would be shuffled based on how everybody did one round, and you'd play another. Shuffle again for the rubber match.

It's a pie in the sky idea, but it might alleviate the sense I often get that I've been dropped into a match that was totally one-sided.