So I am back after a long break being frustrated with the matchmaking. I always liked, that real money does not give you better stuff. It just saved you time and gave visual things like the aperance of your mech or stuff in you cocpit.
Now I am virtually the only one without a clanmech. I still get creamed away in every match and shot in the face very hard and the clan machines lead the score really high.
So we have change to Pay to Win now? Please explain how this contrebutes to the ALREADY very bad machtmaking / balancing in this game.
Regards
Lorgarn
7
Clan Invasion = Pay To Win?
Started by Lorgarn, Jul 19 2014 05:56 AM
301 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 05:58 AM
Clans are not P2W, they are a Paywall though. There is a difference, and neither are that great.
P2W implies that you need to have a Clan mech to do well in combat and IS mechs are now useless. That isn't the case, you can still do well with IS mechs and be competitive. I do think Clan energy beam weapons could use a little tweaking (ERMLaser is a bit too good IMO), but in anycase, it isn't crucial to have a Clan mech if you want to kill your opponent.
Clan mechs are a Paywall. Clan mechs are very unique content to this game. In many ways their radical playstyle change (different durability due to engines, weapons with different play characteristics, omni pods with different ways to equip weapon groupings, etc...) is locked to anyone who doesn't pay. Not just locked for a little while, locked for months. Soon we will see one light mech for C-Bills and Clans have been out for some time. In a game with so little real content, the current release system is locking people out of new extensive content who didn't pay. A lot of new unique content.
Of course eventually the wall will lift with time, but in the mean time it causes a lot of frustration, anger, and division within the community. We see it every day on the forums. The Clans, because of how real different they are, shouldn't have been treated like the Phoenix pack (new mechs up front for MC, but C-Bill versions take months to release), but should have been treated more like the Founders pack of old (unique skin, custom specific model tweaks, C-Bill bonus versions for MC, but a general plain C-Bill version also available at launch). Maybe 1 C-Bill chassis of each weight class could have been available at launch.
If that idea seems too unfair to MC purchasers (it is a rather bold example) or not lucrative enough for PGI (although clearly it once was before), then at the least Clan trial versions that are unmoddifiable (1 of each weight class) should have been made available at launch or very shortly after.
With Trial mechs they would have lifted the Paywall enough to make many people happy, and would have curbed a lot of P2W posts within the community. It would have been a better way to treat their player base IMO.
Just my 2 cents
P2W implies that you need to have a Clan mech to do well in combat and IS mechs are now useless. That isn't the case, you can still do well with IS mechs and be competitive. I do think Clan energy beam weapons could use a little tweaking (ERMLaser is a bit too good IMO), but in anycase, it isn't crucial to have a Clan mech if you want to kill your opponent.
Clan mechs are a Paywall. Clan mechs are very unique content to this game. In many ways their radical playstyle change (different durability due to engines, weapons with different play characteristics, omni pods with different ways to equip weapon groupings, etc...) is locked to anyone who doesn't pay. Not just locked for a little while, locked for months. Soon we will see one light mech for C-Bills and Clans have been out for some time. In a game with so little real content, the current release system is locking people out of new extensive content who didn't pay. A lot of new unique content.
Of course eventually the wall will lift with time, but in the mean time it causes a lot of frustration, anger, and division within the community. We see it every day on the forums. The Clans, because of how real different they are, shouldn't have been treated like the Phoenix pack (new mechs up front for MC, but C-Bill versions take months to release), but should have been treated more like the Founders pack of old (unique skin, custom specific model tweaks, C-Bill bonus versions for MC, but a general plain C-Bill version also available at launch). Maybe 1 C-Bill chassis of each weight class could have been available at launch.
If that idea seems too unfair to MC purchasers (it is a rather bold example) or not lucrative enough for PGI (although clearly it once was before), then at the least Clan trial versions that are unmoddifiable (1 of each weight class) should have been made available at launch or very shortly after.
With Trial mechs they would have lifted the Paywall enough to make many people happy, and would have curbed a lot of P2W posts within the community. It would have been a better way to treat their player base IMO.
Just my 2 cents
#3
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:04 AM
P.S. I also did not purchase any Clan mechs. It does stink, but I still do ok. The Clans do have an edge with energy weapons due to better range (C-ERMLasers are awesome), but IS still has the better ballistic.
That balance means more IS chassis (Laser reliant ones) are at a greater disadvantage against the clans because they are often out-ranged, but IS Ballistic orientated mechs can still concentrate damage easier than a Clan ballistic mech.
We haven't even gotten into how nice the CLan XL helps boost their survivability too.
As you can see, Clan machines are a whole new animal that you need to pay to experience (hence my Paywall claim). That Paywall will lift slowly over time, but it will be SLOWLY. PGI wants you to know that you should have spent money on their game and they will make you feel the agony by SLOWLY giving you content LOL.
That balance means more IS chassis (Laser reliant ones) are at a greater disadvantage against the clans because they are often out-ranged, but IS Ballistic orientated mechs can still concentrate damage easier than a Clan ballistic mech.
We haven't even gotten into how nice the CLan XL helps boost their survivability too.
As you can see, Clan machines are a whole new animal that you need to pay to experience (hence my Paywall claim). That Paywall will lift slowly over time, but it will be SLOWLY. PGI wants you to know that you should have spent money on their game and they will make you feel the agony by SLOWLY giving you content LOL.
Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 19 July 2014 - 06:06 AM.
#4
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:06 AM
MeiSooHaityu, on 19 July 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:
P2W implies that you need to have a Clan mech to do well in combat and IS mechs are now useless. That isn't the case, you can still do well with IS mechs and be competitive. I do think Clan energy beam weapons could use a little tweaking (ERMLaser is a bit too good IMO), but in anycase, it isn't crucial to have a Clan mech if you want to kill your opponent.
But this is excatly who it feel right now. Ether this or the machmaking has gone even worse in the last 3 month. But as I learned from all the discussions about matchmaking and player frustration, that the elo is devine and foolproof and it's just my fault, I get frustrated against unbeatable opponents all day and it's also my fault I wont get better from it, I won't start it again.
MeiSooHaityu, on 19 July 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:
Clan mechs are a Paywall. Clan mechs are very unique content to this game. In many ways their radical playstyle change (different durability due to engines, weapons with different play characteristics, omni pods with different ways to equip weapon groupings, etc...) is locked to anyone who doesn't pay. Not just locked for a little while, locked for months. Soon we will see one light mech for C-Bills and Clans have been out for some time. In a game with so little real content, the current release system is locking people out of new extensive content who didn't pay. A lot of new unique content.
Of course eventually the wall will lift with time, but in the mean time it causes a lot of frustration, anger, and division within the community. We see it every day on the forums. The Clans, because of how real different they are, shouldn't have been treated like the Phoenix pack (new mechs up front for MC, but C-Bill versions take months to release), but should have been treated more like the Founders pack of old (unique skin, custom specific model tweaks, C-Bill bonus versions for MC, but a general plain C-Bill version also available at launch). Maybe 1 C-Bill chassis of each weight class could have been available at launch.
If that idea seems too unfair to MC purchasers (it is a rather bold example) or not lucrative enough for PGI (although clearly it once was before), then at the least Clan trial versions that are unmoddifiable (1 of each weight class) should have been made available at launch or very shortly after.
With Trial mechs they would have lifted the Paywall enough to make many people happy, and would have curbed a lot of P2W posts within the community. It would have been a better way to treat their player base IMO.
Just my 2 cents
Of course eventually the wall will lift with time, but in the mean time it causes a lot of frustration, anger, and division within the community. We see it every day on the forums. The Clans, because of how real different they are, shouldn't have been treated like the Phoenix pack (new mechs up front for MC, but C-Bill versions take months to release), but should have been treated more like the Founders pack of old (unique skin, custom specific model tweaks, C-Bill bonus versions for MC, but a general plain C-Bill version also available at launch). Maybe 1 C-Bill chassis of each weight class could have been available at launch.
If that idea seems too unfair to MC purchasers (it is a rather bold example) or not lucrative enough for PGI (although clearly it once was before), then at the least Clan trial versions that are unmoddifiable (1 of each weight class) should have been made available at launch or very shortly after.
With Trial mechs they would have lifted the Paywall enough to make many people happy, and would have curbed a lot of P2W posts within the community. It would have been a better way to treat their player base IMO.
Just my 2 cents
Thanks for sharing this. But it adds to the already bad situation in the game (on the lower end of the skill ladder) and makes me think it was a mistake to come back.
#5
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:06 AM
MeiSooHaityu, on 19 July 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:
Clans are not P2W, they are a Paywall though. There is a difference, and neither are that great.
P2W implies that you need to have a Clan mech to do well in combat and IS mechs are now useless. That isn't the case, you can still do well with IS mechs and be competitive. I do think Clan energy beam weapons could use a little tweaking (ERMLaser is a bit too good IMO), but in anycase, it isn't crucial to have a Clan mech if you want to kill your opponent.
Clan mechs are a Paywall. Clan mechs are very unique content to this game. In many ways their radical playstyle change (different durability due to engines, weapons with different play characteristics, omni pods with different ways to equip weapon groupings, etc...) is locked to anyone who doesn't pay. Not just locked for a little while, locked for months. Soon we will see one light mech for C-Bills and Clans have been out for some time. In a game with so little real content, the current release system is locking people out of new extensive content who didn't pay. A lot of new unique content.
Of course eventually the wall will lift with time, but in the mean time it causes a lot of frustration, anger, and division within the community. We see it every day on the forums. The Clans, because of how real different they are, shouldn't have been treated like the Phoenix pack (new mechs up front for MC, but C-Bill versions take months to release), but should have been treated more like the Founders pack of old (unique skin, custom specific model tweaks, C-Bill bonus versions for MC, but a general plain C-Bill version also available at launch). Maybe 1 C-Bill chassis of each weight class could have been available at launch.
If that idea seems too unfair to MC purchasers (it is a rather bold example) or not lucrative enough for PGI (although clearly it once was before), then at the least Clan trial versions that are unmoddifiable (1 of each weight class) should have been made available at launch or very shortly after.
With Trial mechs they would have lifted the Paywall enough to make many people happy, and would have curbed a lot of P2W posts within the community. It would have been a better way to treat their player base IMO.
Just my 2 cents
P2W implies that you need to have a Clan mech to do well in combat and IS mechs are now useless. That isn't the case, you can still do well with IS mechs and be competitive. I do think Clan energy beam weapons could use a little tweaking (ERMLaser is a bit too good IMO), but in anycase, it isn't crucial to have a Clan mech if you want to kill your opponent.
Clan mechs are a Paywall. Clan mechs are very unique content to this game. In many ways their radical playstyle change (different durability due to engines, weapons with different play characteristics, omni pods with different ways to equip weapon groupings, etc...) is locked to anyone who doesn't pay. Not just locked for a little while, locked for months. Soon we will see one light mech for C-Bills and Clans have been out for some time. In a game with so little real content, the current release system is locking people out of new extensive content who didn't pay. A lot of new unique content.
Of course eventually the wall will lift with time, but in the mean time it causes a lot of frustration, anger, and division within the community. We see it every day on the forums. The Clans, because of how real different they are, shouldn't have been treated like the Phoenix pack (new mechs up front for MC, but C-Bill versions take months to release), but should have been treated more like the Founders pack of old (unique skin, custom specific model tweaks, C-Bill bonus versions for MC, but a general plain C-Bill version also available at launch). Maybe 1 C-Bill chassis of each weight class could have been available at launch.
If that idea seems too unfair to MC purchasers (it is a rather bold example) or not lucrative enough for PGI (although clearly it once was before), then at the least Clan trial versions that are unmoddifiable (1 of each weight class) should have been made available at launch or very shortly after.
With Trial mechs they would have lifted the Paywall enough to make many people happy, and would have curbed a lot of P2W posts within the community. It would have been a better way to treat their player base IMO.
Just my 2 cents
Clans cost money and offer a very real, very serious advantage. There has never been a game where you can exchange money to simply win. Even when you buy a hack suite for counter-strike, you are still required to actually click and interact with the game to farm your kills.
Clans are P2W.
I can't use c-bills to get a heavy mech that moves as fast as stock lights, tanks damage like an assault, jumps like a 55 tonner, and carries more guns than a 100 tonner.
#6
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:07 AM
Worst part about pay2win is when they sell the weapons to both sides :-D
#7
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:12 AM
Vassago Rain, on 19 July 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:
...I can't use c-bills to get a heavy mech that moves as fast as stock lights, tanks damage like an assault, jumps like a 55 tonner, and carries more guns than a 100 tonner.
Timber Wolf
Yea, that mech is brutally good, no argument from me there. I remember before the clan launch how people thought that mech would be terrible (especially the hitboxes with the missile ears and big legs). Even I was pretty worried, boy that was un-warranted.
It's ok. The Timber Wolf will be nerfed into the ground by the time the C-Bill version hits :/
#8
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:17 AM
There will be some Clanboys that will tell you that Clanmechs are perfectly balanced or, in fact, are even weaker then their IS counterpart.
This might be even partially true. While IS have the advantage in pinpoint damage, the clans outperform IS in terms of alpha damage and DPS. Though, some of the Clan mechs can run strong pinpoint builds like 1 - 2 CGauss+2CERPPCs.
Clan mech have an advantage when it comes to rushing, because they usually come with the better speed and agility. Once Clans can open fire on uncovered targets they usually shred IS mechs apart because of their superior DPS and Alpha.
However, in stand offs they can be easily LRMed to death because many of them tend not equip AMS nor ECM.
Nevertheless, some of the best mechs ingame now are Clan mechs, with No.1 the Timber Wolf which is, hands down, the best mech ingame.
So are Clan mechs Pay2Win? Partly, if you buy the right ones :-)
This might be even partially true. While IS have the advantage in pinpoint damage, the clans outperform IS in terms of alpha damage and DPS. Though, some of the Clan mechs can run strong pinpoint builds like 1 - 2 CGauss+2CERPPCs.
Clan mech have an advantage when it comes to rushing, because they usually come with the better speed and agility. Once Clans can open fire on uncovered targets they usually shred IS mechs apart because of their superior DPS and Alpha.
However, in stand offs they can be easily LRMed to death because many of them tend not equip AMS nor ECM.
Nevertheless, some of the best mechs ingame now are Clan mechs, with No.1 the Timber Wolf which is, hands down, the best mech ingame.
So are Clan mechs Pay2Win? Partly, if you buy the right ones :-)
Edited by xe N on, 19 July 2014 - 06:25 AM.
#9
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:18 AM
Clans are not P2W. Clans have a very different play style from IS mechs overall. They run hotter, faster and punch harder... but their weapons require more time on target. Their UAC's stream bullets, their lasers have long burns, their pulses have 7 rather than 3 for IS bursts. Their LRM's are stream fire rather than full salvo. They have somewhat greater survivability but this is balanced by their need to take greater risks to deliver damage.
On the low end of the skill pool I can see where there may seem to be an imbalance though. If you do not get used to using cover, closing range and choosing when to engage then it can appear that because clans win the energy range game they are flat out better.
Overall though I have seen far less clan stomps of IS mechs than I have seen teams that coordinate well stomping uncoordinated rabble. This is a team combat game and the best thing you can do to enhance your enjoyment of it is find a group to play with. The solo queue is fine for farming money and xp but it isn't what the game is all about.
On the low end of the skill pool I can see where there may seem to be an imbalance though. If you do not get used to using cover, closing range and choosing when to engage then it can appear that because clans win the energy range game they are flat out better.
Overall though I have seen far less clan stomps of IS mechs than I have seen teams that coordinate well stomping uncoordinated rabble. This is a team combat game and the best thing you can do to enhance your enjoyment of it is find a group to play with. The solo queue is fine for farming money and xp but it isn't what the game is all about.
#10
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:29 AM
While some of them are extremely powerful and can take full advantage of meta builds to exploit MWOs terribad pinpoint design; overall the clans arnt pay2win, rather they perform differently and most of their weapons do to, this creates a alien experience for pilots unused to dealing with them.
While I own only one clan mech (guess what one) I have pretty intimate knowledge of all the others from combat experience and theory crafting in smurfys and knowing what they can or cant do really helps in dealing with them. (or any mech for that matter)
While I own only one clan mech (guess what one) I have pretty intimate knowledge of all the others from combat experience and theory crafting in smurfys and knowing what they can or cant do really helps in dealing with them. (or any mech for that matter)
#11
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:29 AM
Jetfire, on 19 July 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:
They have somewhat greater survivability but this is balanced by their need to take greater risks to deliver damage.
I fail to see where a 1-2 CGauss 2CERPPC Timberwolf or Direwolf need to take greater risk then any pinpoint IS mech.
I also fail to see where CSRM boats need to take greater risks then IS SRM boats.
I also fail to see where Clan-LBX need to take greater risk then IS-LBX
I also fail to see where Clan-ACs need to take a greater risk then IS-Lasers
Clans only need to take the greater risk if a IS pinpoint build (preferably poptarter) stands again a Clan laser or AC build.
However, if you see this as the balancing element, please take out IS lasers, SRMs and LBX completely to prevent IS players using anything else then LRMs and pinpoint damage
Edited by xe N on, 19 July 2014 - 06:31 AM.
#12
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:31 AM
Jetfire, on 19 July 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:
Clans are not P2W. Clans have a very different play style from IS mechs overall. They run hotter, faster and punch harder... but their weapons require more time on target. Their UAC's stream bullets, their lasers have long burns, their pulses have 7 rather than 3 for IS bursts. Their LRM's are stream fire rather than full salvo. They have somewhat greater survivability but this is balanced by their need to take greater risks to deliver damage.
On the low end of the skill pool I can see where there may seem to be an imbalance though. If you do not get used to using cover, closing range and choosing when to engage then it can appear that because clans win the energy range game they are flat out better.
Overall though I have seen far less clan stomps of IS mechs than I have seen teams that coordinate well stomping uncoordinated rabble. This is a team combat game and the best thing you can do to enhance your enjoyment of it is find a group to play with. The solo queue is fine for farming money and xp but it isn't what the game is all about.
On the low end of the skill pool I can see where there may seem to be an imbalance though. If you do not get used to using cover, closing range and choosing when to engage then it can appear that because clans win the energy range game they are flat out better.
Overall though I have seen far less clan stomps of IS mechs than I have seen teams that coordinate well stomping uncoordinated rabble. This is a team combat game and the best thing you can do to enhance your enjoyment of it is find a group to play with. The solo queue is fine for farming money and xp but it isn't what the game is all about.
Yes, remember. If you feel something is not right, it is ALWAYS your fault. Been playing for 2 years, have a good grasp of the game, have a good KDR and good map knowledge yet you feel the Clans have a slight advantage...NO! You are terrible...Get on my level! L2P Noob! LOL. Seriously though, this read A LOT like that. No offense man, but I hate that response.
In anycase though, the longer beam duration on Clan lasers vs IS is negligable. If you torso twist like a freak, then maybe the longer burn time might mean damage gets spread more. I think the Clan lasers are really good at countering any faction Heavy or Assault at range. Those mechs are a bit too slow to find cover when the energy beams come shining in.
Clan ballistics (A/Cs) are kind of cool, but I think I still prefer IS front load damage ballistics.
Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 19 July 2014 - 06:32 AM.
#13
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:31 AM
I don't have a clan mech. I do fine. L2P.
#14
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:37 AM
Dirkdaring, on 19 July 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:
I don't have a clan mech. I do fine. L2P.
I'm equal opportunity, can't just pick on Jetfire...
That is an awesome match and 6 kills is always nice with that damage figure. Still, that good screen cap of one match doesn't end the conversation. Good matches happen all the time. I ONCE had all 8 enemy kills with a Catapult C1 and still did about 800 damage (back before 12 v 12). Even back then, I would in NO WAY start telling people the Cat C1 was OP. Good matches happen, it never paints an entire story though.
Still, well played that match sir.
Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 19 July 2014 - 06:38 AM.
#15
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:42 AM
Tl; Dr :
Clan = Pay to play/D.o.T Champs
IS = Uberomni/F.L.D-P.P. Champs
Is that so hard, guys ?
I.S. stuff is still cool, don´t get all hot´n bothered about that shiny Clanstuff ...
Clan = Pay to play/D.o.T Champs
IS = Uberomni/F.L.D-P.P. Champs
Is that so hard, guys ?
I.S. stuff is still cool, don´t get all hot´n bothered about that shiny Clanstuff ...
#16
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:18 AM
Vassago Rain, on 19 July 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:
Clans cost money and offer a very real, very serious advantage. There has never been a game where you can exchange money to simply win. Even when you buy a hack suite for counter-strike, you are still required to actually click and interact with the game to farm your kills.
Clans are P2W.
I can't use c-bills to get a heavy mech that moves as fast as stock lights, tanks damage like an assault, jumps like a 55 tonner, and carries more guns than a 100 tonner.
The issue is, THEY DON'T OFFER A SERIOUS ADVANTAGE!!!
I get so tired of hearing this. I own the Timberwolf and while it is a good mech, I have many IS mechs, in a similar weight range that can equal or out perform it.
You can mount a 400XL in a Battlemaster which gets it up to 83.9 kph which is only 6 kph slower than a TW and you still have 53.06 firepower at those speed so your not even giving up the Pew Pew to get that sort of speed, and this is an 85 ton mech we are talking about, not a 75 tonner like the TW. (Oh and it is ONLY 12 kph faster than the CLAN 85 tonner...wonder what that means in terms of how much advantage Clans have) Therefore by your standards, owning and using a Battlemaster gives players an obvious advantage yet I don't see posts crying it is OPed or anything like that.
I am sorry to be kinda ranting at you but the guy you responded too is right on the money with his post and even explains why while all you can come up with is "Clan are P2W". I may be wrong but If I had to bet you don't own a Timberwolf (which we all know is the unnamed mech you referred to) do you and if you don't I am sure the response I will get is something along the lines of "I have eyes, I have spectated and watched videos so that makes me a expert" or some such.
So do you own one or are you just an armchair expert? Important distinction because one has the knowledge and experience required to actually make an accurate evaluation and other is just blowing alot of smoke.
#17
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:19 AM
MeiSooHaityu, on 19 July 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:
Yes, remember. If you feel something is not right, it is ALWAYS your fault. Been playing for 2 years, have a good grasp of the game, have a good KDR and good map knowledge yet you feel the Clans have a slight advantage...NO! You are terrible...Get on my level! L2P Noob! LOL. Seriously though, this read A LOT like that. No offense man, but I hate that response.
Oh you hate that response? Should I start to tell you how much I hate being just the punching bag for awesome groups I have to pug against?
Whenever someone from the lower end of the foodchain shares about how frigging frustrating it is to be thrown against teams who outperform you on so many different levels (score, map-knowlede, positioning, aiming, teamplay, longrange shots with brilliant acuurency, lrm swarms, and so drasticly mobile light who take apart 3 or 4 machines) match after match, they get told they should not complain and get better. When they state then, that the learningcurve is quite horizontal in such matches you get responses like 'l2p' (I have seen on also in this thread already).
Now we add ANOTHER IMBALANCE to the game which is even stronger felt AGAIN by the novice or beginner players and you tell me you hate resonses like that?
I am deeply sorry for ruining the state of the world for the hardcore players but this is how it looks like at the moment.
#18
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:28 AM
I haven't tried clan mechs yet, but they die just as easily as IS mechs.
#19
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:37 AM
Dirkdaring, on 19 July 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:
I don't have a clan mech. I do fine. L2P.
you were against 9 IS and 3 clans...hardly proves anything
Edited by Chemie, 19 July 2014 - 07:37 AM.
#20
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:43 AM
Quote
You can mount a 400XL in a Battlemaster which gets it up to 83.9 kph which is only 6 kph slower than a TW and you still have 53.06 firepower at those speed so your not even giving up the Pew Pew to get that sort of speed, and this is an 85 ton mech we are talking about, not a 75 tonner like the TW.
Dont forget to mention you blow up in the IS XL mech if one ST gets shot off and it lacks the JJ option.
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