301 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Yokaiko, on 19 July 2014 - 10:53 PM, said:

They've needed that for years.

Awesome, Dragon?

Actaully restoring the weapons to TT heat and removing engine limits would go a LONG way.

**** engine limits, they are ****.

TT heat level... I'd say it's more complex than that. IS mechs do need some heat work done on them. Mostly though all the garbage chassis need some love and buffing. The Awesome and the Dragon need to be more viable, so does the QD. Change hitboxes, change scaling, change size, change hardpoints. If Clan mechs can have heat and ROF nerfs to weapons why can't the Awesome have a tiny heat buff and refire buff for PPCs?

Get what I mean? IS mechs can't swap pods around, so if you're stuck with an energy boat chassis.... why not have it work a little better with energy weapons?

So much could be done on that. Tons and it would be awesome.

Weapon modules are bad and, honestly, the person responsible should feel bad about them. Get rid of them. They're an intentional money/GXP sink. We've already got plenty of that. Burn them with fire. Make that stuff baked into the chassis for IS mechs, since they have hardpoints the way they do.

Also... release Clan mechs fro Cbills. on Tuesday. All of them. Give people who bought them a bunch of Premium time, cockpit decorations, War Horns, digital pictures of ponys, doesn't matter. Get that **** out for cbills and do it now. Their cbill cost will drag out their wide spread adoption anyway.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 19 July 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

You're just trying to handwave away the issue at this point.

Because i don't think there is an issue.

[Wolfways]

bluepiglet, on 19 July 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

TBR is not limited, its optimised, its faster than the top speed of any 65 tons IS mech, while it can carry more weapons than them at the same time. Firepower, durability and mobility it has all and it makes it outclass any other existing heavy meches. Don't think "overpowered" is a more proper word than "versatile" to describe it?

Thunderbolt max speed = 86.4
Timber Wolf max speed = 89.1
You're really going to complain about a difference that small?

It doesn't really matter how many weapons a mech can carry as the heat system restricts how many you can use at once. "Extra" weapons are just wasted weight. Have you noticed that people generally remove some weapons from their mechs?

As for durability, i see many people say how the ct takes most incoming hits, and i know i haven't had a problem killing them. If i had a problem with killing them i would call them OP.

Edited by Wolfways, 19 July 2014 - 11:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Wolfways, on 19 July 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:

Because i don't think there is an issue.

Brings up an interesting point. P2W isn't a technical term - it's an impression. It's an opinion someone has about a business model and it's almost universally a negative one.

That's not a small thing and it's something that WoT and even some EA games have moved away from for that reason. Even at its worst people still played WoT - hell, some people played it specifically *because* they could pay money for an advantage over other people. Just because there isn't some absolute universal consensus that something is P2W doesn't mean that impression isn't legit.

The key is to avoid any whiff of it. At all. Cosmetics only, all content available for cash have no impact on the game at all. 2 weeks exclusive access.... not ideal but not bad.

The fundamental issue is that with the Phoenix and Clan packages MW:O has moved beyond that. Look at what's coming for Modules - look at the steady creep of increased costs (if clan weapons and equipment are balanced with IS weapons and equipment, why are they more expensive?) and reduced income/hour. We moved from Mechs for MC 2 weeks early to $55-$250 for 5 months of exclusive access for hugely significant game content.

So are we going to end up with a sort of rolling queue? People who pay get content 5 months early, everyone else is running 5 months behind? OP or not, they're bored with stuff by the time the peasantry gets access to it?

Look at the community we already have, how's that going to turn out? This doesn't take a lot of insight to figure. A lot of the changes over the last few months are awesome. Others though are moving into a more aggressive monetization model that isn't good for us or the community.

PGI should get paid for their work. Absolutely, no question. I've put several AAA titles worth of money into the game now and that's alright. P2W though....

Toxic. Absolutely toxic and it needs to be kicked to the curb. That more than a couple of people have an issue with this model though is reason enough to let it go.

Not saying nerf Clans.

Saying buff IS in fact.

The model of pay to keep others from having access (which is what this is - the content is there, it's digital, there isn't some production queue going on) for several months isn't a good one or a healthy one.

[ArmandTulsen]

Dirkdaring, on 19 July 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

I don't have a clan mech. I do fine. L2P.

Sick sample size, bro.

Let's see another 20 matches.

I consistently see Clan mechs on the top 3 for damage. Mostly Direwolves, but the occasional Timberwolves as well.

Edited by ArmandTulsen, 19 July 2014 - 11:47 PM.

[Yokaiko]

MischiefSC, on 19 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

TT heat level... I'd say it's more complex than that. IS mechs do need some heat work done on them. Mostly though all the garbage chassis need some love and buffing. The Awesome and the Dragon need to be more viable, so does the QD. Change hitboxes, change scaling, change size, change hardpoints. If Clan mechs can have heat and ROF nerfs to weapons why can't the Awesome have a tiny heat buff and refire buff for PPCs?

Oh man, where to start.

First and foremost, PGI decided it was a good idea to double, triple, or octuple the firing rates and leave heatsinks on the TT 10 sec cycle.
........what could possibly go wrong?

Engine limits? Obselete, toss that crap, who's worried about a 9 slas hunchie? It would be a bit faster than a Nova, but dies to side torso (HI HUNCH!) and less firepower. Fair?
Ghost heat, toss that to. Seriously .....EVERYONE hates ghost heat.
Model sizing should have been went over a year ago...Treb, I'm looking at your lanky ass.

Quirks yeah, WHY THE **** does the Awesome 8Q and 9Q have quirks that remove the ghost heat from three PPCs, the heat sinks kill the 9Q anyway, so see point one.

Dragons are hitbox issues
Cents...engine limits, Trebs, models, BJs ghost heat/ngine limits.
Highlander WTF JUMP JETS, its an assault deigned to jump......but can't clear a ******* Cutefox with 4 JJs? Really PGI? Really?

MischiefSC, on 19 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Get what I mean? IS mechs can't swap pods around, so if you're stuck with an energy boat chassis.... why not have it work a little better with energy weapons?

I agree, completely.

MischiefSC, on 19 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Weapon modules are bad and, honestly, the person responsible should feel bad about them. Get rid of them. They're an intentional money/GXP sink. We've already got plenty of that. Burn them with fire. Make that stuff baked into the chassis for IS mechs, since they have hardpoints the way they do.

Yeah, two meters for MORE heat when all of the mechs are to damn hot anyway....BRILLLLLLLLLIANT.
Yeah, formula for success.

MischiefSC, on 19 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Also... release Clan mechs fro Cbills. on Tuesday. All of them. Give people who bought them a bunch of Premium time, cockpit decorations, War Horns, digital pictures of ponys, doesn't matter. Get that **** out for cbills and do it now. Their cbill cost will drag out their wide spread adoption anyway.

YES YES YES

ALL Clan mech C-bill in like two weeks, PLEASE just to stop the whining.

ArmandTulsen, on 19 July 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Sick sample size, bro.

Let's see another 20 matches.

I consistently see Clan mechs on the top 3 for damage. Mostly Direwolves, but the occasional Timberwolves as well.

Don't see you hanging up screenies so STFU.

[Yokaiko]

MischiefSC, on 19 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

TT heat level... I'd say it's more complex than that. IS mechs do need some heat work done on them. Mostly though all the garbage chassis need some love and buffing. The Awesome and the Dragon need to be more viable, so does the QD. Change hitboxes, change scaling, change size, change hardpoints. If Clan mechs can have heat and ROF nerfs to weapons why can't the Awesome have a tiny heat buff and refire buff for PPCs?

Oh man, where to start.

First and foremost, PGI decided it was a good idea to double, triple, or octuple the firing rates and leave heatsinks on the TT 10 sec cycle.
........what could possibly go wrong?

Engine limits? Obselete, toss that crap, who's worried about a 9 slas hunchie? It would be a bit faster than a Nova, but dies to side torso (HI HUNCH!) and less firepower. Fair?
Ghost heat, toss that to. Seriously .....EVERYONE hates ghost heat.
Model sizing should have been went over a year ago...Treb, I'm looking at your lanky ass.

Quirks yeah, WHY THE **** does the Awesome 8Q and 9Q have quirks that remove the ghost heat from three PPCs, the heat sinks kill the 9Q anyway, so see point one.

Dragons are hitbox issues
Cents...engine limits, Trebs, models, BJs ghost heat/ngine limits.
Highlander WTF JUMP JETS, its an assault deigned to jump......but can't clear a ******* Cutefox with 4 JJs? Really PGI? Really?

MischiefSC, on 19 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Get what I mean? IS mechs can't swap pods around, so if you're stuck with an energy boat chassis.... why not have it work a little better with energy weapons?

I agree, completely.

MischiefSC, on 19 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Weapon modules are bad and, honestly, the person responsible should feel bad about them. Get rid of them. They're an intentional money/GXP sink. We've already got plenty of that. Burn them with fire. Make that stuff baked into the chassis for IS mechs, since they have hardpoints the way they do.

Yeah, two meters for MORE heat when all of the mechs are to damn hot anyway....BRILLLLLLLLLIANT.
Yeah, formula for success.

MischiefSC, on 19 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Also... release Clan mechs fro Cbills. on Tuesday. All of them. Give people who bought them a bunch of Premium time, cockpit decorations, War Horns, digital pictures of ponys, doesn't matter. Get that **** out for cbills and do it now. Their cbill cost will drag out their wide spread adoption anyway.

YES YES YES

ALL Clan mech C-bill in like two weeks, PLEASE just to stop the whining.

.....oh and DUH long laser times, LRM and spread ULTRA ACs.......yeah, formula for high damage. But hell I'm top 3 3/5 games with a LRM Stormcrow....so yeah.

[Wolfways]

MischiefSC, on 19 July 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

Brings up an interesting point. P2W isn't a technical term - it's an impression. It's an opinion someone has about a business model and it's almost universally a negative one.

That's not a small thing and it's something that WoT and even some EA games have moved away from for that reason. Even at its worst people still played WoT - hell, some people played it specifically *because* they could pay money for an advantage over other people. Just because there isn't some absolute universal consensus that something is P2W doesn't mean that impression isn't legit.

The key is to avoid any whiff of it. At all. Cosmetics only, all content available for cash have no impact on the game at all. 2 weeks exclusive access.... not ideal but not bad.

The fundamental issue is that with the Phoenix and Clan packages MW:O has moved beyond that. Look at what's coming for Modules - look at the steady creep of increased costs (if clan weapons and equipment are balanced with IS weapons and equipment, why are they more expensive?) and reduced income/hour. We moved from Mechs for MC 2 weeks early to $55-$250 for 5 months of exclusive access for hugely significant game content.

So are we going to end up with a sort of rolling queue? People who pay get content 5 months early, everyone else is running 5 months behind? OP or not, they're bored with stuff by the time the peasantry gets access to it?

Look at the community we already have, how's that going to turn out? This doesn't take a lot of insight to figure. A lot of the changes over the last few months are awesome. Others though are moving into a more aggressive monetization model that isn't good for us or the community.

PGI should get paid for their work. Absolutely, no question. I've put several AAA titles worth of money into the game now and that's alright. P2W though....

Toxic. Absolutely toxic and it needs to be kicked to the curb. That more than a couple of people have an issue with this model though is reason enough to let it go.

Not saying nerf Clans.

Saying buff IS in fact.

The model of pay to keep others from having access (which is what this is - the content is there, it's digital, there isn't some production queue going on) for several months isn't a good one or a healthy one.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like P2W. Gold ammo in WoT (for cash only) was ridiculous.
But when it comes to balance people go overboard about the slightest perceived advantage. Balance is based on opinions, therefore perfect balance cannot exist. It is a myth.
People also vary on how important they think things are. For example, Timber Wolf has very light LRM20's. How important is that over the fact that they are huge easy to target "ears"?
I'm more bothered about how skilled the pilot is than what mech they are in.

I personally don't mind that people who pay get to use clan mechs before me, even if i don't even like IS mechs and have been waiting 2 1/2 years for clans. What does annoy me is that i like stock mechs and can play "almost stock" by adding Endo, DHS and ammo. I can't do that with clan mechs due to the customization restrictions so will be playing completely stock mechs
For me personally clan mechs are going to be very underpowered. Not that i think that is a reason to buff them or anything, although i would have preferred 10 v. 12 matches.

[MischiefSC]

Wolfways, on 20 July 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong. I don't like P2W. Gold ammo in WoT (for cash only) was ridiculous.
But when it comes to balance people go overboard about the slightest perceived advantage. Balance is based on opinions, therefore perfect balance cannot exist. It is a myth.
People also vary on how important they think things are. For example, Timber Wolf has very light LRM20's. How important is that over the fact that they are huge easy to target "ears"?
I'm more bothered about how skilled the pilot is than what mech they are in.

I personally don't mind that people who pay get to use clan mechs before me, even if i don't even like IS mechs and have been waiting 2 1/2 years for clans. What does annoy me is that i like stock mechs and can play "almost stock" by adding Endo, DHS and ammo. I can't do that with clan mechs due to the customization restrictions so will be playing completely stock mechs
For me personally clan mechs are going to be very underpowered. Not that i think that is a reason to buff them or anything, although i would have preferred 10 v. 12 matches.

Here's the thing - you're 100% correct for pretty much all of that. The issue is that you're saying that since you don't mind people having an advantage over you for several months it's okay.

That's alright for you but can you see where that would be a-typical?

You're also correct on balance - there's no way to get 'truly balanced'....

which is *exactly* why things like exclusivity in that sort of environment is bad.

Every concurrent situation that makes people feel excluded or cheated or otherwise like they got shafted is *not* going to make them want to buy in next time - it's going to make them want to leave. For what?

Give perks for it, paints, cammo, freaking decals for the mechs. Mechs themselves though are much like maps - they're real content and subject to opinions on balance, which will turn into a total shitstorm (like we're seeing) over time.

This is just the begining. Wait another 3 months. It'll get better.

[Wolfways]

MischiefSC, on 20 July 2014 - 12:29 AM, said:

Here's the thing - you're 100% correct for pretty much all of that. The issue is that you're saying that since you don't mind people having an advantage over you for several months it's okay.

That's alright for you but can you see where that would be a-typical?

You're also correct on balance - there's no way to get 'truly balanced'....

which is *exactly* why things like exclusivity in that sort of environment is bad.

Every concurrent situation that makes people feel excluded or cheated or otherwise like they got shafted is *not* going to make them want to buy in next time - it's going to make them want to leave. For what?

Give perks for it, paints, cammo, freaking decals for the mechs. Mechs themselves though are much like maps - they're real content and subject to opinions on balance, which will turn into a total shitstorm (like we're seeing) over time.

This is just the begining. Wait another 3 months. It'll get better.

I agree with you, but i should point out that the advantage that those who paid for clan mech have isn't something that i consider a game affecting advantage. They can use mechs that i want to use, and will use eventually, but it's only temporary and hasn't changed the actual matches for me other than me thinking "You ********, i want that mech", which will be worse when the Mad Dog comes out

I haven't used any clan mechs yet, but they seem to be no more powerful than IS mechs. But then, i'm also a player who thinks LRM's need a huge buff...

[KharnZor]

Stop deleting posts dirty mod.

[Praehotec8]

I'm still waiting for a legitimate explanation of why my stats have not changed significantly since beginning to use my clan mechs, since they are overpowered.

Can't really say L2P, since statistically I'm doing the same in kills/match.

As others have stated, there IS a paywall, and that is the source of most of the angst. Whether the paywall is fair or not is debatable, but it has little to do with true in-game advantage, and everything to do with perception and envy. EVERYONE wants to play with the new shinies, and those who can't will be upset until they can, bottom line (excepting the situation in which the new ones are grossly - and I mean GROSSLY - underpowered...think P2Lose).

[Praehotec8]

MischiefSC, on 20 July 2014 - 12:29 AM, said:

Give perks for it, paints, cammo, freaking decals for the mechs. Mechs themselves though are much like maps - they're real content and subject to opinions on balance, which will turn into a total shitstorm (like we're seeing) over time.

Should a game like, say Diablo 3 (for example) provide all of its expansion pack content to all players, just because some players will not buy it until it is on the bargain rack? There is a lot of content being locked out.

It's not exactly the same, but for a business trying to make a living, it's really pretty similar...you need to sell things that entice people to buy them - now preferably.

[Vassago Rain]

Praehotec8, on 20 July 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

Should a game like, say Diablo 3 (for example) provide all of its expansion pack content to all players, just because some players will not buy it until it is on the bargain rack? There is a lot of content being locked out.

It's not exactly the same, but for a business trying to make a living, it's really pretty similar...you need to sell things that entice people to buy them - now preferably.

Every single defender, including yourself, has a high tier Mech Pak ™

Edited by Vassago Rain, 20 July 2014 - 03:19 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lorgarn, on 19 July 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

So I am back after a long break being frustrated with the matchmaking. I always liked, that real money does not give you better stuff. It just saved you time and gave visual things like the aperance of your mech or stuff in you cocpit.

Now I am virtually the only one without a clanmech. I still get creamed away in every match and shot in the face very hard and the clan machines lead the score really high.

So we have change to Pay to Win now? Please explain how this contrebutes to the ALREADY very bad machtmaking / balancing in this game.

Regards
Lorgarn

No we haven't. As we are not playing the full game yet it is only pay to scrimmage. Many of the Clan Mechs will be available by the launch of CW so all we have now is pay to play first.

Vassago Rain, on 20 July 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

Every single defender, including yourself, has a high tier Mech Pak ™

Would that then include you and I as we have also invested in the game, you more so than I, and I am defending Owning Clan Mechs right now.

[Vassago Rain]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 July 2014 - 03:37 AM, said:

No we haven't. As we are not playing the full game yet it is only pay to scrimmage. Many of the Clan Mechs will be available by the launch of CW so all we have now is pay to play first.


Would that then include you and I as we have also invested in the game, you more so than I, and I am defending Owning Clan Mechs right now.

Joe, the game launched in august last year. This is the full game, minus a java map with faction bars.

[Smokeyjedi]

The way all the clan mechs weapon systems function and actually have had time spent trouble shooting the systems before they were implemented means they are OP

Now if PGI had messed up half of the coding, than Clanners would be on par...........I would love to know if their sloping/terrain mechanics are as poopey as IS mecs.

Clearly the coding finesse is worlds apart from Founders mechs to Clanner mechs...........Im going to go ahead and say that They are generally better at everything that MWO requires of the Mech on the code level. (think Lag) ugly, patched, hard to work with code, Vs.clean fresh lightweight Clan code.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 20 July 2014 - 04:08 AM, said:

Joe, the game launched in august last year. This is the full game, minus a java map with faction bars.

Funny I/we don't have a contract with the Lyrans yet? I am not fighting against strictly Clan Wolf either? So how can you say the game is launched? The combat engine was released to be played, but I am not even dropping on Named planets yet! Launched does not carry the same meaning it used to I guess.

[Wolfways]

Vassago Rain, on 20 July 2014 - 03:19 AM, said:

Every single defender, including yourself, has a high tier Mech Pak ™

I don't

[Wolfways]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 July 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

Funny I/we don't have a contract with the Lyrans yet? I am not fighting against strictly Clan Wolf either? So how can you say the game is launched? The combat engine was released to be played, but I am not even dropping on Named planets yet! Launched does not carry the same meaning it used to I guess.

I'd say MWO is just about finished. It has almost the same content as WoT. Maps, mechs/tanks, campaign map (coming). I honestly believe that what we have now is basically the full game, other than a campaign map and more "content" (i.e. mechs and maps).
If people are expecting much more i think they are going to be highly disappointed