301 replies to this topic

[Grey Black]

Oh, my god. I'm going to say this once, and then copypasta it all over the place whenever I see a thread like this:

THE CLANS ARE NOT PAY TO WIN!!! THEY WILL NOT BE AND NEVER WILL BE!!!

Pay to win implies that you gain a significant in-game advantage in exchange for money, such as dealing extra damage or taking less damage. The clans are not this. The Clans are not even particularly superior to their Inner Sphere counterparts. In fact, I'm willing to bet that 90% of MWO players can't get full benefit out of their Clan mechs.

To begin with, all Clan mechs are hard-locked with certain items. be it engine size or fixed structure/armor type. These cannot be changed. This is a more significant nerf than it appears on the surface, as all Clan mechs equip an XL engine. Take out 2 torso locations on a Clan mech, or just the CT, and it falls. No exceptions, this does actually create fragility in the Clan chassis, compared to the standard IS mech who can adjust their structure/armor/engine type to fit not only their personal playstyle, but also what works best for the mech.

Secondly, half of the Clan mechs are nigh-on unusable. Sure, the Timber Wolf is, bar none, the best mech in the game (I'll address this in a second), but what else is good? The Dire Whale is slower than sin, letting it get picked apart and eaten quickly by more mobile opponents, the Nova can't equip enough weapons to take full advantage of its hardpoint selection without remembering that Ghost Heat is a thing, and the Kit Fox and Adder are lumbering weapon platforms which can be taken out with ease. The Summoner lacks adequate weapon hardpoints (Seriously, 3 hardpoints on a 70 ton mech?!?), and the Warhawk's arms are the size of Mother Russia in terms of targets. The Ryoken and the Timber Wolf are the only clear winners, but even the Ryoken is offputting for me due to the lack of jump jets.

Which actually leads me into another point: CLAN MECHS ARE TOO SLOW. The Dire Whale moves like it was beached for a week, the Warhawk I don't have enough experience with, but the Adder and Kit Fox cannot get out of harms way at all, which locks them into a very immobile playstyle. Want a better light mech than the Kit Fox? THE RAVEN. THE JENNER. THE FIRESTARTER. All of these are superior mechs. Want a better assault mech? I'm not familiar with assault chassis, but the use of the DDC as an ECM blanket or the Victor as a mobile striker are bar-none better than the Clan equivalents.

By comparison, the Heavies and Mediums can't pack nearly as many guns as their Inner Sphere counterparts. I forget where I saw it, but someone compared the pod space available to a Summoner to a Cataphract and found that the Cataphract can actually mount more weapons than the Summoner while maintaining a similar speed. The Ryoken has so much of its space taken up by engine that it's difficult to really build anything. The problem of "TOO MANY HARDPOINTS" plagues the Nova hardcore.

Now, this is all just the chassis, but what about the weapons? The LRMs are easy enough to get shot down by AMS, the Autocannons don't deal front loaded damage, and the beam weapons have a longer burn time. The only weapon type which is strictly superior is the laser group, and only because they deal fractionally more damage per tick than their IS counterparts. Every other weapon type, the IS has the advantage (except the Gauss, which is a tie due to it being the EXACT SAME WEAPON). HOWEVER, the Clan weapons do have a greater potential to deal damage, in the right hands. Not everyone can use them to their full effect, however, WHICH IS MY ORIGINAL THESIS TO THIS WALL OF TEXT.

Now, I'm not debating that the Timber Wolf is currently the best mech in the game at the moment, mostly due to the inclusion of the Timber Wolf S (A BAD IDEA FROM WHERE I STAND, SERIOUSLY, WHY COULDN'T WE HAVE THE TIMBER WOLF D?!?), However, the fact that it WILL be available for CBills should be a HUGE comfort for all free players. Just because some people are impatient and want to buy the Timber Wolf for real money doesn't disqualify you from owning one. You just have to wait a little bit longer.

[GoManGo]

Lartfor /The gaming industry in general does not even know the definition of alphas, betas, or "Gold" released products anymore... I blame the excessive blending of "use to be" static definitions and the trend to release unfinished "finished" products on the drastic increase in predatory business practices and conmanship heavily making it's way into the industry. /

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PGI started MWO on a business model of what I call =(HIT AND RUN) which is take all the $USD you can first product second. If you look at game models and business practices like say WOW or EVE they charge small micro transactions over a longer period of time and hold and retain more new players than MWO.

And you will say YADA YADA YADA they=(WOW,EVE) this or that but the truth is MWO has lost 90% of the new players that came on-board in closed beta and now is scraping the bottom of the barrel for cash.If Russ or Brian wanted to balance Clan Vs IS better they should have fixed the hit-boxe sand armor on the IS mechs to compensate for the Clan mechs superiority.

PGI should have taken the road of

#1 Produce and content first
#2 Retention of new players
#3 Smaller Micro transactions over a longer period
#4 Better interaction with player & fans.

The list could go on but hopefully (PGI/IGP which are in fact the same LLC group) will learn and MWO will not die and have the server shut down on those that have paid into this game.

Edited by GoManGo, 21 July 2014 - 06:32 AM.

[Mystere]

Roland, on 21 July 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

It's not just "good". It's clearly THE BEST heavy chassis at the moment.

So in your view, is "The Best = Overpowered"?

[Grey Black]

Mystere, on 21 July 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

So in your view, is "The Best = Overpowered"?

It's not a question of "The Best = Overpowered". The Cataphract, for the longest time, was the best chassis without being overpowered. The Timber Wolf, however, breaks the Cataphract's power curve and runs with it. For 5 tons extra, you can do ANYTHING. Scout? Sure! Snipe? Sure! Jump snipe? Why not? Again, this is all due to the inclusion of the Timber Wolf S. Without that variant, I would argue that even the Timber Wolf is balanced. WITH that variant? Way overpowered.

[Balder Shadow]

Not a social program!!!!

But, but, but they are Canadian!!! Clan Mech's should be free and dispensed from vending machines on every Canadian street corner!

[krash27]

GoManGo, on 21 July 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

Lartfor /The gaming industry in general does not even know the definition of alphas, betas, or "Gold" released products anymore... I blame the excessive blending of "use to be" static definitions and the trend to release unfinished "finished" products on the drastic increase in predatory business practices and conmanship heavily making it's way into the industry. /

==============================================================================

PGI started MWO on a business model of what I call =(HIT AND RUN) which is take all the $USD you can first product second. If you look at game models and business practices like say WOW or EVE they charge small micro transactions over a longer period of time and hold and retain more new players than MWO.

And you will say YADA YADA YADA they=(WOW,EVE) this or that but the truth is MWO has lost 90% of the new players that came on-board in closed beta and now is scraping the bottom of the barrel for cash.If Russ or Brian wanted to balance Clan Vs IS better they should have fixed the hit-boxe sand armor on the IS mechs to compensate for the Clan mechs superiority.

PGI should have taken the road of

#1 Produce and content first
#2 Retention of new players
#3 Smaller Micro transactions over a longer period
#4 Better interaction with player & fans.

The list could go on but hopefully (PGI/IGP which are in fact the same LLC group) will learn and MWO will not die and have the server shut down on those that have paid into this game.

You do realize that both those games you are comparing MWO had a premium subscription only to start right? You realize they didn't settle into micro transactions until they were settled into the market right?

[xlrdallas]

All cry baby's, pay for it or wait and get for free, not pay to win pay to get early

[GoManGo]

krash /You do realize that both those games you are comparing MWO had a premium subscription only to start right? You realize they didn't settle into micro transactions until they were settled into the market right?

==============================================================================

Yes but would you have paid a small subscription price say $6.95-$8.95 a month to have had better content,better game modes,more maps, CW, and a private lobby-launcher system for private matches, more balance and bug fixes,ETC?

I know I would have paid a monthly subscription for better gameplay and content and small prices on micro transactions for bling items and mechs/bays.

And im talking right from the start of MWO.

Edited by GoManGo, 21 July 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[Mystere]

Grey Black, on 21 July 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

It's not a question of "The Best = Overpowered". The Cataphract, for the longest time, was the best chassis without being overpowered. The Timber Wolf, however, breaks the Cataphract's power curve and runs with it. For 5 tons extra, you can do ANYTHING. Scout? Sure! Snipe? Sure! Jump snipe? Why not? Again, this is all due to the inclusion of the Timber Wolf S. Without that variant, I would argue that even the Timber Wolf is balanced. WITH that variant? Way overpowered.

I was actually probing Roland for his view on what "overpowered" means to him by quantifying it.

But since you claimed that the TW-S is "way overpowered", please show me how by presenting something along the lines of this, especially the last item. Something close to this is what it will take to convince me, and I am sure a few others, of your claim. But, you may restrict your analysis to only the TW-S vis-a-vis the IS mech collection, since you are only referring to that variant.

Edited by Mystere, 21 July 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Clydewinder]

Clan mechs will continue to be slightly better than IS until they are available for C-Bills. Marketing dictates that a new product you sell that competes with your old product must be better or nobody will buy it. ( Golden Boy I'm looking at you... )

[CygnusX7]

I wish clan mechs were P2W. Unfortunately my skill doesn't allow it.

[Budor]

I only own the timbers but they are hands down better than any other mech i played. The clan xl is a massive advantage over any IS chassi imo.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 21 July 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

I was actually probing Roland for his view on what "overpowered" means to him by quantifying it.

But since you claimed that the TW-S is "way overpowered", please show me how by presenting something along the lines of this, especially the last item. Something close to this is what it will take to convince me, and I am sure a few others, of your claim. But, you may restrict your analysis to only the TW-S vis-a-vis the IS mech collection, since you are only referring to that variant.

I've asked this elsewhere but I'll ask it again here -

The Jagermech, when it first came out before Ghost Heat, was the best heavy - Be that 5x AC2s, 4xAC5s or the infamous 2xAC20. Could you beat it with a well driven poptart? Sure - but that was more a matter of skill differential between pilots than a failing of the Jag chassis. Plenty of people didn't know how to protect that (at the time) oversized cockpit or fat side torsos.

Still though, it was a stone cold beast. So much so that it was largely responsible for the introduction of ghost heat.

What if it had been cash only for 6 months?

Which is what we're talking about. 6 months ago we didn't even have UI 2.0, for comparison. 2 LRM balances, the AC balance happened, Griffin/Wolverine/Battlemaster, all were not out for cbills yet. No Banshee or Firestarter, etc. etc.

What if that pre-Ghost Heat Jag came out before UI 2 did for $60 cash ONLY (not even MC for people with a Founders stockpile left) and was, literally, just going on sale for cbills today.

Seriously, think about that. Was it totally OP'ed? No. Could you beat it? Sure. Was it an advantage?

Absolutely.

I still wreck a lot of face and crush a lot of dreams in my Boomjag, pale as she is compared to what she used to be. Leveling up Griffins all Bishop Steiner style right now too; it's fun. I take my Banshee out, 3E with either the 35 or 45 pt pinpoint loadouts (3xAC5, 2xPPC or 1xGauss, 3xPPC) and exploit the **** out of my fellow Clan teammates stripping armor to steal kills like a *************.

My Timber Wolf however can do *anything* and do it very well. I enjoy it a lot. Especially since my prime, with the 30% bonus, can do anything any variant can do - can't say that about any of my Phoenix mech primes, can I? I can grind my TW Prime for a 30% bonus scouting, LURMing, trip-UAC5ing better than an Ilya and with JJs, SRM-brawling better than any other SRM boat (88 point alpha, baby! CERMLs FTW).

Is it 'OP'? No. It's just better. I've also paid extra to make sure most players don't get to use it for 5 or 6 months.

This isn't 'early access'. It's not still in testing, I'm not 'beta testing' anything. It's not like there's a production queue and people have to wait. I paid extra for my TW to severely limit other players getting to use it so I feel special.

That makes me a total and complete *******, doesn't it?

Exclusivity in this environment literally exists to do one and one thing only - split haves from have-nots. It intentionally deprives some people of game content, and we're not just talking some cammo or paint here, not just cosmetics but the very best Clan tech game content and the best heavy mech in the game, for five or six months, just to give my epeen a handy.

That's not what I want to see from PGI. It's not what makes me happy as a consumer. It's not the value I want for my money - and I'm happy to give them that money, by the way. Games in a good place, moving in a good direction.

Is it P2W? Not outright, not in a hardcore way, no. Is it several long strides that direction from 2 weeks early access for 3 chassis (two of which are ALWAYS garbage) for one otherwise typical IS mech? Oh yeah. Hugely. Shamefully even.

[Jetfire]

MischiefSC, on 21 July 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

That's not what I want to see from PGI. It's not what makes me happy as a consumer. It's not the value I want for my money - and I'm happy to give them that money, by the way. Games in a good place, moving in a good direction.

Is it P2W? Not outright, not in a hardcore way, no. Is it several long strides that direction from 2 weeks early access for 3 chassis (two of which are ALWAYS garbage) for one otherwise typical IS mech? Oh yeah. Hugely. Shamefully even.

I will agree, I would rather see the clan mechs available for Cbills much much faster than their current schedule. 1 chassis per patch would have been just fine and I only say that slow because they have to do all the camo setup before the full CB release and that obviously still needs to be done.

Honestly if they were all available for CBills now I would be perfectly happy. I got what I paid for and I wasn't paying for P2W. I hate P2W. I have plenty of friends who want the mechs but didn't have the cash and I would be more than happy to see them get them sooner.

However I stand by my statement that the clan mechs and clan tech are very well balanced, maybe not statistically perfect, but well within easily tolerable margins. If not for the exclusivity factor I do not think the TW is OP mantra would have such staying power. I do not think it will take long post CB release for people to realize that while it is a fast and flexible heavy and looks really cool... there are plenty of reasons to get into other chassis in the class.

[RagingOyster]

Don't have time to write up a detailed response to OP, but I can tell you that there is an awesome number-crunching thread somewhere that lays out exactly what the difference between Clan and IS is. The math is sound, and it ends up being something like a 2% advantage for the Clanners. Let me see if I can find the thread. ..

Edit: Here you go http://mwomercs.com/...ew-data-170714/

Now stop your crying. I roflstomp Clanner scum on a daily basis and I am in no way a high-level player.

Edited by RagingOyster, 21 July 2014 - 09:42 AM.

[Grey Black]

Mystere, on 21 July 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

I was actually probing Roland for his view on what "overpowered" means to him by quantifying it.

But since you claimed that the TW-S is "way overpowered", please show me how by presenting something along the lines of this, especially the last item. Something close to this is what it will take to convince me, and I am sure a few others, of your claim. But, you may restrict your analysis to only the TW-S vis-a-vis IS mech collection, since you are only referring to that variant.

Strictly impossible, given the omnipod system. The ability to move pods wherever you want (excepting CT), is what makes the S pods so powerful. Perhaps I should rephrase my statement, however. The S variant of the Timber Wolf lets you add jump jets so long as you run the side torsi, and permits you a level of customization freedom that other omnimechs bar the Kit Fox S do not possess. That is huge for Clan omnimechs right now. The Thor and Nova cannot adjust their numbers, making selection a harder process. Imagine being able to select your jets numbers in those mechs and how much better those chassis would be. Therein lies the problem.in addition to having great hardpoints, hitboxes, speed, and mobility, the S variant also gives the Timber Wolf access to a remarkably stronger jump jet system than your standard clan omnimech. Hence why I call out the Timber Wolf S variant specifically.

[MischiefSC]

Grey Black, on 21 July 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Strictly impossible, given the omnipod system. The ability to move pods wherever you want (excepting CT), is what makes the S pods so powerful. Perhaps I should rephrase my statement, however. The S variant of the Timber Wolf lets you add jump jets so long as you run the side torsi, and permits you a level of customization freedom that other omnimechs bar the Kit Fox S do not possess. That is huge for Clan omnimechs right now. The Thor and Nova cannot adjust their numbers, making selection a harder process. Imagine being able to select your jets numbers in those mechs and how much better those chassis would be. Therein lies the problem.in addition to having great hardpoints, hitboxes, speed, and mobility, the S variant also gives the Timber Wolf access to a remarkably stronger jump jet system than your standard clan omnimech. Hence why I call out the Timber Wolf S variant specifically.

Huh. What if they made the TW work like the Thor? No JJs, save the S variant, which has them in set locations in CT and legs?

I'd support that.

[Mystere]

Grey Black, on 21 July 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Strictly impossible, given the omnipod system. The ability to move pods wherever you want (excepting CT), is what makes the S pods so powerful. Perhaps I should rephrase my statement, however. The S variant of the Timber Wolf lets you add jump jets so long as you run the side torsi, and permits you a level of customization freedom that other omnimechs bar the Kit Fox S do not possess. That is huge for Clan omnimechs right now. The Thor and Nova cannot adjust their numbers, making selection a harder process. Imagine being able to select your jets numbers in those mechs and how much better those chassis would be. Therein lies the problem.in addition to having great hardpoints, hitboxes, speed, and mobility, the S variant also gives the Timber Wolf access to a remarkably stronger jump jet system than your standard clan omnimech. Hence why I call out the Timber Wolf S variant specifically.

So the question remains, is it really OP, or just better?

[Perq]

Quote

THE CLANS ARE NOT PAY TO WIN!!! THEY WILL NOT BE AND NEVER WILL BE!!!

Nice drama out there, however you are missing the point. Restricting access and splitting community is bad in general. Be it OP or not. And if you ask me, triple AMS seems op to me.

drama mode
I've got to say I'm pretty much done with the game after 2 days of playing. I've played a little with trial mechs, had lots of fun, and then I've got my own - I tho: "Well, if whole mech costs 3,8mil, I think I will be able to outfit it, right?" Right? WRONG. One ******* engine costs more than a WHOLE MECH. I mean, ok, you want to get new players. Got it. But do you really think your customers (players) are mentally challenged? All this premium times and other crap... wow.

This game had me at first, and I tho I'd stay here for a longer while. Nice gameplay, some team-based tactics. Good looking, well made mech-feel. But now, all I can see is a decent game with bunch of greedy people behind it. This game will NEVER be popular with such horrid, exploit system it currently has. People who think that exploiting hardcore fans will get them lots of money are braindead. Who are the going to play with? Freakin bots?

And I'm not saying I wouldn't spend any money on a game. I would, and I did. TONS of it. But I spent all that money because I WANTED TO. Because game was good, developers were fair, and stuff I bought had nothing to do with pay2win. Not because GAME FORCED ME, not because I wanted to feel special for having a new mech "freebies" won't have, or being able to freakin paint my mech black. For 10$, that is.
/drama mode

Sorry for off-topic and all, but I felt like this would feel in into pay2win topic, as this game is CLEARLY a pay2win. You can say it isn't, but this is what I feel after 2 days of playing.

[Xeno Phalcon]

Quick someone buy me a gold warhawk, by virtue of pay to win (and Dragonball Z) going gold must make you unbeatable!