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Is It Any Surprise That Light Mechs Are Routinely <10% Of The Queue Right Now?


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#141 Vweegit

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 05:50 PM

View PostYokaiko, on 20 July 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:


Who the hell has 1000 games on ONE mech?


Someone who has been around since the beginning and really likes one mech?

I've got 500 games in the Jenner (my favorite, and most used mech, by far) since returning to MWO sometime around February.

Lights need some love, perhaps. I'm a fairly skilled pilot - high KDR, high avg damage, high wins, etc. I personally do not care if they don't do anything to buff them, but anyone other than a skilled pilot must have one hell of a bad time in them. They are brutally unforgiving now. One mistake can cost you your game. It doesn't get any more brutal than that.

I don't know what the solution is, though. There is nothing I enjoy more than piloting my light well enough that I know my efforts influenced the win. The scoreboard, and payout, however, do not always reflect these efforts.

If lights are not going to be rewarded for their contributions, no one is going to want to pilot them. I regularly earn 200+k (premium) in my JR7-F. I regularly earn 260k+ in my Prime clan variants. I am quite willing to bet that this is not the norm. I do things that are less-than-optimal in order to drive up my earnings, rather than necessarily eliminate the opponent more efficiently.

I've seen proposals ranging from more leg armor to more armor in general to speed buffs to turn rate buffs....and I don't think they need any of this. I truly believe that if lights were given more reason to fulfill their role, they would do so, rather than try to act like mini-gladiators in a brawl (which is what I generally do in most of my lights).

Trust me when I say that I would be exceptionally happy to harass, narc, scout, if my rewards were even closely comparable to what I can earn by sticking 6ML up some Fatlas's ludicrously swaying rear end.

#142 rusticatedcharm

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 06:21 PM

I know that I'm coming into this discussion a little bit late, but I would like to share my views on this subject. I, personally, don't think lights are necessarily in a bad place in terms of the damage they provide for their tonnage. What really hinders them is the value that they provide their team when compared to heavier mechs, particularly in the solo que. In an ideal world light pilots would feel like they have just as much as an impact on an MWO match as assault pilots, just in different ways.

To evaluate lights properly you must consider what they are supposed to be good at. To me, personally, lights should excel at scouting and harassing the enemy. They should be capable of doing both of these things in a match, while some particular light mechs obviously doing better in one category than other and vice versa.

The value of the scouting that a light mech can do in MWO, while perhaps more important in the competitive scene, is really rather low in solo que. There are two main things there that come into play. The fact that any mech, regardless of its weight, has the same ability to detect enemy mechs as any light chassis really limits the amount of role warfare that can happen. The caveat to this point is ECM, which is available on more light chassis than any other mech class in the game. That being said, only 4 light mech variants can run ECM, and is limiting effective scouting to just these few really a good decision? I'm not saying give all light mechs ECM, in fact I'm against that. I am, however, saying that if lights don't bring dps to the table, they should at least be able to provide better or faster sensor information than heavier mechs. Lights should be the best scouts in the game but right now they excel in this role to a far lesser degree then assaults do at dealing damage and area denial.

Compounding this problem is the fact that scouting is not really awarded any value in the match score that is displayed at the end of the games. Even the spotting assists and narc assists, which are an attempt to incentivize information gathering, are only accrued for providing lrm firing solutions. If you devote your time to NARCing in solo que or getting into a position to provide spotting assists, it’s a role of the dice whether or not your teammates have brought lrms. What is more, these rewards do not even factor into the match score which is displayed at the end of the game. Lights, even if they do a great job scouting, are not publicly lauded for the roles. Lights should be able to have incentives, both in terms of gameplay advantages and in terms of cbills+xp awards, to scout and acquire information without regard to their own team’s composition. If a light provides a target for a sniper to shoot at, shouldn't the light get rewarded as well?

In terms of the valuation of lights' ability to harass other mechs, I feel that in this area they are in a better place than their ability to scout. That being said, there still seems something wrong about the risk-reward ratio of harassing currently. When one encounters 50 (+10 splash) damage pinpoint alphas that are coming from some Dire Wolfs these days all they have to do is look at you to leg you. It is clear that amount of risk that a non-ecm light pilot has to take in order to provide even minimal fire support is really inordinate considering that turning the wrong corner can result in a near instant death. While shooting the back armor of a mech is certainly something lights can do, there should be other options for lights to contribute to the fight so that their damage is more meaningful.

I'd like to point out one other thing that I feel is really hindering lights in general as a class in terms of popularity. Consumables are great on lights. They are perhaps the best artillery spotters and uav placers in the game, and to be honest I feel if every light was given a significant discount on UAVs and arty strikes, the popularity of light chassis would skyrocket. No one ever expects the average atlas to be carrying a UAV, but lights are often expected to perform such roles.The balance decision to view lights as the primary delivery vehicles for arty and uavs (look at the Raven 3l or the Jenner K) forces players to spend cbills to get the most out of their mechs. While having so many module slots is indeed an advantage that light mechs have over other classes, for the average player grinding cbills it serves as a deterrent to their use.

I'd like to finish this post by saying that I honestly feel that people would play light mechs more if they felt they could achieve important things in them. As a light pilot I'd like to be able to carry a match just as hard as an assault pilot, just in a different way. I've talked to multiple competitive (Siri, Adi, Jaeger) gamers and they've all agreed with me that carrying a match in a light is generally much harder to do than carrying it in a heavier chassis. I'm not saying that it can't be done, hell I've had a 1200 damage game on alpine in an ember, but that only happens once in a while under extraordinary circumstances. I want to go into a match knowing that I'm just as vital to my teams success as the guy piloting a 100 ton behemoth. I don't want to feel like a second class mech pilot simply because my mech is smaller.

Edited by rusticatedcharm, 21 July 2014 - 02:12 AM.


#143 AllSystemsNominal

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:19 PM

Lights are also very, very dependent on some of the skills that come at Elite - namely the speed tweak. They need it more than any other class needs any other upgrade, IMO. It's absolutely mandatory and makes a huge difference in your ability to be good, because light mechs rely on speed as their weapon.

#144 Mad Porthos

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:54 PM

Another thing many forget about that specifically effects lights and only lights, is the 15kph max speed when legged and recently shot. Every other mech, ya lose a leg and your speed is halved with a 40kph maximum. Lights apparently the figured that was not enough, it's reduce to like 15kph is you have taken any damage! Anywhere, anytime. So if an alpha took your leg one minute into the game, it's 15kph... then maybe 40 after a few moments. But the slightest tap to your mech, maybe an ac2 shot to your un damaged left arm, or a .34 damage swipe of a large laser at 700meters and you are again super crippled at 15kph, as if 40kph was not enough?

#145 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:18 AM

In all honesty... yeah lights arent very popular at the moment. and that makes me happy. I hate playing against them, and i hate using them, they dont feel like mechs to me, too fast, too nimble, too squishy. So if they are rarer, im happier.

#146 The Amazing Atomic Spaniel

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:27 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 21 July 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

In all honesty... yeah lights arent very popular at the moment. and that makes me happy. I hate playing against them, and i hate using them, they dont feel like mechs to me, too fast, too nimble, too squishy. So if they are rarer, im happier.


Same here. I don't like using them because they feel like a character in a twitchy first-person shooter rather than a giant walking tank. Worse, the twitchiness just highlights the very modest frame rates I get out of MWO, it all looks very choppy and immersion killing.

#147 Be Rough With Me Plz

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:31 AM

Don't you know? Atlases are the new Light mechs. They're too busy sniping with LL's, playing peek-a-boo, and reverse running at 20kph the moment their screen shakes.

People who play like that pretty much lose the match for their entire team with the new "3/3/3/3" because they're simply not carrying their own weight. If you bring the Mech you can do the most damage in(MW:O - Heavier the better), then you have a better chance of influencing the direction of a battle.

I love my JR7-D brawler, but I can't stand it when I see people in Assaults doing what I typed above with <200 damage and 0 kills. They might as well run around with flamers.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 21 July 2014 - 01:53 AM.


#148 TOGSolid

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:53 AM

View PostBe Rough With Me Plz, on 21 July 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:

Don't you know? Atlases are the new Light mechs. They're too busy sniping with LL's, playing peek-a-boo, and reverse running at 20kph the moment their screen shakes.

People who play like that pretty much lose the match for their entire team with the new "3/3/3/3". If you bring the Mech you can do the most damage in(MW:O - Heavier the better), then you have a better chance of influencing the direction of a battle. I love my JR7-D brawler, but I can't stand it when I see people in Assaults doing what I typed above doing <200 damage with 0 kills.

New?

Steiner has been scouting with them for centuries!

#149 Be Rough With Me Plz

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:04 AM

View PostTOGSolid, on 21 July 2014 - 01:53 AM, said:

New?

Steiner has been scouting with them for centuries!


Relatively new. Only started playing this reincarnation of a "BattleTech" game the past couple of months.

An Atlas playing like that before the new MM system wasn't as bad as it is now because it was common to see 6-8 assaults on one side. Their ****** play wasn't as noticeable because you had those other Assaults picking up the slack. Nobody is picking up their slack now with the new MM system. It's really the only negative I can think of for the Solo Queue, but I'll take it.

Edit: I'm sure Steiner pilots with a brawler Atlas D-DC (AC20/2xML/3xSRM6) don't stand outside optimal range of ALL weapons and poke around a corner shooting just their 2 ML's at a target roughly 370 meters away... Then again...

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 21 July 2014 - 02:09 AM.


#150 Kmieciu

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:25 AM

Ton for ton, light mechs are great value. I bet even an elite Atlas pilot would have trouble soloing 4 Commandos in a row. Or 5 Locusts. But it's irrelevant now, since we can only take 1 mech into a match. Let's face it: you cannot make a Locust equally effective in combat as an Atlas in a FPS game if you follow TT rules.

That's why MWO would really benefit from a "dropship" mode with limited respawns. Imagine you could only take 100 tonnes into a match. You could take 1 Atlas or 5 Locusts. Or maybe a Shadow hawk and a Blackjack. Or two Jenners and a Spider.

I know for a fact that this mode would be more fun and casual, just like "arcade" battles in Warthunder. And it would solve a lot of current balance problems. For example a Shadowhawk is so much better than a Hunchback, but is it better that 2 Hunchbacks? Or a Hunchback and a Centurion. In fact, most people would migrate to lighter chassis, because you have to be confident in your skills to bring only 1 mech when others can bring up to 5.

I predict there would be even less rolf-stomps because teams would not loose firepower with each downed mech. Right now when you see a 0v4 score a rolf-stomp is bound to happen. With dropship mode, there could still be 12 mechs fighting on both teams despite the score.

This could even be an opportunity for PGI to earn more money be selling Dropship upgrades for MC/C-Bills. Just like in Warthunder, where you can have 5 plane/tank slots for in-game currency and more for MC.

Edited by Kmieciu, 21 July 2014 - 02:27 AM.


#151 Black Ivan

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:33 AM

At least a balancing between the Mech classes is needed. 10% lights is a shame

#152 Khobai

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:47 AM

Quote

Obviously youve never played battletech. Locust vs Atlas, Locust wins everytime.


It should be noted that Atlases are also one of the worst assault mechs in battletech. For many of the same reasons theyre bad in MWO... mixed loadout and serious lack of firepower.

Any real assault would murder a Locust in one turn.

#153 Slackjawlocal

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:24 AM

I been playing a little over a week now. I also am Free to play so far. I have wanted to buy MC but am reluctant do to the fact there are really only 4 maps to play on. The issues with DC's, and the most influential part. The fact that the more people buy into a game the more a developer will spend time developing items to pay cash for vrs free content, but this is for another topic.

I have only played public matches. The first mech I bought was a heavy, (Jagermech) big mistake. Wile I enjoy playing it the most, was wrong choice to start with as a free account. c-bill cost would put me behind by weeks trying to master mech skill trees. So I bought a Jenner. I have one Elite tree filled on one speck and working on the second now. 90% of my time is played on the Jenner and I do enjoy it.

In a good PUG where the team works together and I have a couple LRM boats to spot for I can do fairly good. I have had matches that netted me 1100+ xp and over 110k in cbills. This is not bad for a light mech that did about 120 damage and 5 to 6 spotting bonuses with 8 or 9 assisted kills. But games in pugs unfortunately are not always like this. Also I am still green so the more I play the better I should do.(with out premium bonus)
The down side to playing a light mech. 99% of the death blows come from being legged during a Match. Also once you start Tagging or Narc for your missile boats you become the PRIME target for almost every mech on the map. Tag is 750 meters while narc is 500 meters. in order to be effective scout you must be close to the fight and in a light mech that's asking to be killed. This is where skill comes into effect more then mech itself more so then not. Light mech have a very low factor when it comes to making mistakes. IF you want firepower in a light mech you need to be with in close range, if you want to scout you need to be in close ranger. That is what light mechs deal with. We can Cap resources but if we are alone we are cannon fodder and we can not solo attack bases to make an enemy change its focus to allow your team to advance on a position.

Grinding on light mech takes time and can be frustrating at times. (if you get a bad run of matches and only make 200 xp and about 40k in c-bills for like 7 matches in a row.) Sucks being legged or nearly one shot at the start of a match because that one mistake. I enjoy my light mech but for a new player and the way PUGS go It is worth taking in tonnage so that when I make a mistake it a little more forgiving.

Edited by Slackjawlocal, 21 July 2014 - 05:02 AM.


#154 Andross Deverow

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:08 AM

View PostLefty Lucy, on 19 July 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Lights have the natural disadvantages of having little armor, internal health, and not being able to equip much in the way of weaponry and equipment. This has been balanced in the past by lights having extreme mobility. A good light pilot can choose when and where he or she wants to fight, can get to strategically-important positions quickly, and can often get a view of the developing battlefield before the rest of the team. In high-level play being "harder to hit" doesn't come into play, as a skilled opponent will be able to hit you regardless of how fast you're moving. To wit, lights have always been extremely vulnerable to high-damage alphas removing legs or side torsos in a salvo or two.

Despite this high-risk play style, many of PGI's balance changes have made lights even riskier and less rewarding to play.

Turrets make it so lights can't threaten the enemy team with a base cap.

No-min-range Clan LRMs mean lights aren't safe from guided weaponry up close.

Fall damage means lights will often take significant damage before the enemy is even engaged.

The jump jet nerf means that lights have a much harder time getting out of bad situations, and if you reserve fuel to prevent extreme leg damage you get very little jump jet height in the first place, even with 5+ jj.

Every single balance patch doesn't do anything to get rid of the oft-maligned "pop tart" but cripples high-mobility game play even further.

So many people are running Timberwolfs now, that is one reason. Ques are taking longer also as soo many players are running heavies.

Regards

#155 Roland

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:26 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 21 July 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

In all honesty... yeah lights arent very popular at the moment. and that makes me happy. I hate playing against them, and i hate using them, they dont feel like mechs to me, too fast, too nimble, too squishy. So if they are rarer, im happier.

You are bad at fighting in giant robots.

#156 Fishhawk

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:27 AM

I used to play Lights exclusively, but recently when I do play (which is rare these days) I play Mediums and Heavies. Lights aren't as fun for me anymore. It takes a lot more concentration and mistakes are more likely to be fatal.

#157 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 05:44 AM

View PostRoland, on 21 July 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

You are bad at fighting in giant robots.


please note i didn't say i found fighting against them hard, just that i hate it. (i am crap at using them, but that'll be the complete lack of practice, due to the hatred of them, caused by them not feeling even remotely like giant robots)

#158 Mercules

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:44 AM

View PostRampancyTW, on 20 July 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

They already ARE pretty high

Seriously, if you spend a match harrassing (building up kill assists), TAGing/NARCing (bonus + spotting assists), and blowing off the occasional ST/CT (component destruction/kill bonuses), even at only around 300 damage you should be pulling in at least 120k cbills and 900 EXP. You'll occasionally get stuck on a terrible team, but on a semi-competent team with LRMs you will be rolling in the dough.

My JR7-F is also easily my highest-earning mech (with the exception of my Nova-PRIME(I), due to hero bonus).


In theory you are correct. In practice this doesn't pan out and here is why.

To properly Spot in MWO you really need to have flanked the enemy or even moved fully behind them. You also need to make sure they are not aware you are there so Tag only works on the outmost mech and only if people are not looking that way. You then spot for the LRMs and ~IF~ your teammates pick your target by being to the side/behind they can't easily break lock and get hit thinking they have.

However, doing so typically means I am about 600m from the enemy. My team is usually about 200m from them if not closer depending on the map and the cover/ridges. Those mechs don't have LoS but can lock them from my lock. Well, spotter bonus usually goes to the closest mech with the lock... That isn't me. I also don't get Tag bonus because TAG gives them a perfect chance to track it back to me and either kill me, or force me to break LoS and thus not spot.

NARCs are excellent but I have to get fairly close to the enemy and hit them with a slow moving projectile. Larger mechs can actually make better use of them when they brawl calling down the fury of heaven to help them clear out an enemy quicker.


Basically anything I get bonus money/XP for a person in a Direwolf can get the same only he has about 8x my firepower and 4-5x my armor.

View Postmwhighlander, on 20 July 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Something tells me your average games are painful to watch, as most pilots I know with over 2k games in one mech have over Millions of XP sitting.


You forget, light mechs don't make as much XP on average as the heavier classes. It's based on damage and kills. More weapons/heatsinks = more DPS = more damage = more XP. Sure we can get Savior kills and such but so do all the other mechs firing.

I got yelled at today for shooting instead of capping points in conquest on Forest Colony. Not a huge map meaning the enemy can respond to whatever cap I try and take. We are already down 3 guys so the team is bunched up in cover. I had tried to get an early grab on Theta but took a massive hit to CT despite movement(that pilot was a good shot) and so needed to move cautiously but was told that if I had gotten out onto Theta(in the open), Sigma (enemy had a direwolf launching LRMs from there), or Kappa (out in the open where 4 enemy mechs were) I would have been doing my job.

Screw that. What would I get? 0 rewards, not a win because we were 150 behind on points and 3 guys down, no damage because the fist lucky/skilled hit to the CT would take me out, even a roll dragging lasers across my body might kill me at that point. I would never get a point capped before 3 of them were on me and that would be if I had been running a CapAssist.

There is literally very little reward to piloting a Light Mech. About all we can do to level up is hang out with the big boys and fire past them into the enemy -OR- skulk around the edges and look for wounded mechs to finish off. I might as well stand at the drop position for 2 minutes and then come in and see if I can blow off an arm here and leg there. I get more C-Bills/XP that way.

Now when I go up, to even a Medium, I start to see XP rolling in like crazy. Heavy... pfffft... mastered out a Jagger in no time. The Clan mechs are about equal to IS mediums in speed because... what's that... they can do more DPS on average than IS Lights. XP comes in at a nice pace. I'm leveling up a Commando chassis I want to use on Stock Mech Mondays and it is ~painful~.

#159 xhrit

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:43 AM

View PostJagdFlanker, on 20 July 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

everybody makes mistakes during a match, and heavies/assaults are forgiving of those mistakes - lights are not


Unless your mistake is overextending, in which case light mechs can more quickly redeploy..

#160 Iron Frost

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:05 AM

Someone probably already said this. Why dont they just implement XP bonus for playing certain classes depending on how skewed the average is.

People cant really game it except leveling up specific mechs more quickly (or paying money to transfer the XP to GXP - which is win/win for IGP).





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