372 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

I will chime in with something. The last couple of days I've deliberately dropped solo in a light mech. The wait times weren't any faster than dropping in an assault for me and the payout was a LOT less than what I get in mediums, heavies, and assaults, because the rewards for damage and kills is king.

Lights shouldn't have to do 600+ damage to earn as many cbills as an assault. Why would I WANT to take a mech that, on average, is going to make about half what I would make in a heavier mech. This is especially true when you consider that the ONLY thing to do is save money to buy the next mech.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Mister Blastman, on 23 July 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

Who cares if everyone used to have it? Sometimes things have to be done to benefit the whole at the expense of a few.

Do you seriously believe Air Strike and Artillery is worth a significant downgrade in survivability and firepower just for the sake of having it?

All the fluff aside, how about you try and explain why you so vehemently believe restricting Artillery and Air Strikes to Light Mechs will ultimately boost the Light pilot population. After all, isn't that the entire reason why you suggested the restriction in the first place?

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 23 July 2014 - 09:23 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 23 July 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

All the fluff aside, how about you try and explain why you so vehemently believe restricting Artillery and Air Strikes to Light Mechs will ultimately boost the Light pilot population. After all, isn't that the entire reason why you suggested the restriction in the first place?

By giving them something unique and, as you admit, powerful, to make them more enticing. If a strike can turn the tide or determine a match... wouldn't you want a 'mech on your team that is capable of delivering it?

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Mister Blastman, on 23 July 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

By giving them something unique and, as you admit, powerful, to make them more enticing. If a strike can turn the tide or determine a match... wouldn't you want a 'mech on your team that is capable of delivering it?

So your argument is that Artillery and Airstrike are so powerful that you believe people would give up on Assaults and Heavies just to obtain them?

The entire point of suggesting changes is to boost the Light pilot population.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 23 July 2014 - 09:26 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 23 July 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

So your argument is that Artillery and Airstrike is so powerful that you believe people would give up on Assaults and Heavies just to obtain them?

I'm borrowing your own words. You said it.

I believe they are tactically an important asset and the class best suited to deploy it is a light 'mech. Yes, I believe people would realize that light 'mechs are helping turn the tide of battle and begin to recognize them as essential in "role warfare," a basic principle and tenet of Battletech.

[Sandpit]

you guys arguing over arty and air are in the wrong thread. There's about 10 of em in the GD section for you to choose from

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Mister Blastman, on 23 July 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

I'm borrowing your own words. You said it.

Quote me where I said restricting Air Strikes and Artillery will increase Light pilot population.

You are the one who suggested making Air Strike and Artillery exclusive to Lights:

Mister Blastman, on 23 July 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Perhaps only the light 'mechs should be given stuff like strikes... Maybe that'd be an incentive to have more.

I simply asked how that would increase the Light pilot population.


Yes, I did say that a well placed Artillery/Air Strike could win a match. I also said that it would be a arbitrary punishment for people in non-Light Mechs to suddenly have that option taken away. Not once did I ever say restricting it to Light Mechs only would increase the Light pilot population. In fact, I argued the exact opposite.

Here is what I actually suggested in regards to increasing Light pilot pop:

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 23 July 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

C-Bill rewards for spotting for all weapons - not just LRM's.
C-Bill reward for using BAP.
C-Bill for capping bases.
C-Bill for capping objectives.
Different C-Bill valuation for Kills.
Different C-Bill valuation for Assists.
Different C-Bill valuation for Component Destruction as a whole.
Different C-Bill valuation based on which Component you destroy.
C-Bill bonus for different damage tiers.
Different C-Bill valuation for UAV detection.

Pays to Play.

----------------

I asked you if people will give up piloting Assaults and Heavies to pilot Lights just to use Artillery/Air Strike

You said:

Mister Blastman, on 23 July 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

Yes, I believe people would realize that light 'mechs are helping turn the tide of battle and begin to recognize them as essential in "role warfare," a basic principle and tenet of Battletech.

Nowhere in your statement do you actually answer the question asked. It was a smooth non-answer though. I didn't ask you if you think people will recognize Light mechs with Artillery/Air Strike as being important so your answer is irrelevant to what is being discussed.

The current Light pilot population already understand the value of a Light Mech. They wouldn't be piloting it otherwise because there sure as hell aren't any tangible incentives to do so. The people who are left that could boost the Light pilot population are the casual gamers.

With that clarification, do you believe the casual gamer would trade a Mech with substantially higher survivability and firepower for a Light Mech just to use Artillery/Air Strike?

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 23 July 2014 - 10:20 PM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Sandpit, on 23 July 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

you guys arguing over arty and air are in the wrong thread. There's about 10 of em in the GD section for you to choose from

I apologize for the tangent, but I don't appreciate it when people obfuscate or misrepresent what I say.

I'm tired of people arguing X when the issue is Y.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 23 July 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[Kmieciu]

FupDup, on 21 July 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

The ability to spam weaker units generally isn't allowed...which removes the "asymmetrical advantage" you could have by using them.

I was playing Warthunder Ground Forces the other day. I was riding in my humble light tank, when a guy in a heavy tank one-shotted me. What did I do next? Did I leave the game or spend the next 15 minutes in spectator mode? No. I re-spawned and flanked the guy. He took me out a second time, but not before I damaged his tracks. Then I re-spawned for the third and final time, and circled behind him. He did not have time to repair and I had lots of time to shoot him in the back at point blank range finally taking him down.

He might have a better k/d ratio than me, but the game was fun. He got the kills, I got the win. Everybody was satisfied. The tanks are not "balanced" in WT. Light tanks are simply inferior to medium and heavies. Just like a light mechs in MWO, the speed alone does not make up for lesser armor and firepower. But you get 3 "lives" while the heavy tank gets one.

That's why the "Dropship mode" would be so great in MWO. The heavier mechs pilots would have more targets to shoot at, and their KDR would go even higher. But If you could take 5 Locusts into a match instead of one Atlas, it could actually be a valid strategy, and not a suicide like it is now. You die in one, you respawn at your dropship. Hell, PGI could even implement drop-pods to make it more believable. Or you could just spawn 200 meters into the air with 10 second damage immunity like the mechs in MW2 did.

Edited by Kmieciu, 24 July 2014 - 01:02 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kmieciu, on 24 July 2014 - 12:50 AM, said:

I was playing Warthunder Ground Forces the other day. I was riding in my humble light tank, when a guy in a heavy tank one-shotted me. What did I do next? Did I leave the game or spend the next 15 minutes in spectator mode? No. I re-spawned and flanked the guy. He took me out a second time, but not before I damaged his tracks. Then I re-spawned for the third and final time, and circled behind him. He did not have time to repair and I had lots of time to shoot him in the back at point blank range finally taking him down.

He might have a better k/d ratio than me, but the game was fun. He got the kills, I got the win. Everybody was satisfied. The tanks are not "balanced" in WT. Light tanks are simply inferior to medium and heavies. Just like a light mechs in MWO, the speed alone does not make up for lesser armor and firepower. But you get 3 "lives" while the heavy tank gets one.

That's why the "Dropship mode" would be so great in MWO. The heavier mechs pilots would have more targets to shoot at, and their KDR would go even higher. But If you could take 5 Locusts into a match instead of one Atlas, it could actually be a valid strategy, and not a suicide like it is now. You die in one, you respawn at your dropship. Hell, PGI could even implement drop-pods to make it more believable.

that idea does have merit (though in its own game mode) - but the way PGI has balanced things you couldn't do it on straight tonnage. 2 kitfoxes and a cicada is a lot better than 1 atlas (id have a game mode where you had say 220 tons to work with, and 4 mechs total max, all set up before map is chosen, then you can just choose the order to drop in)

2 dire wolves + 1 locust, shadowhawk + griffin + wolverine + stormcrow, etc.

[Kmieciu]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 July 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

that idea does have merit (though in its own game mode) - but the way PGI has balanced things you couldn't do it on straight tonnage. 2 kitfoxes and a cicada is a lot better than 1 atlas (id have a game mode where you had say 220 tons to work with, and 4 mechs total max, all set up before map is chosen, then you can just choose the order to drop in)

2 dire wolves + 1 locust, shadowhawk + griffin + wolverine + stormcrow, etc.

The exact tonnage you could bring into this mode is up to debate. There could be drop ships of various size for a player to buy and use. It can be set up to be both profitable for PGI and fair. Though it would be fun to actually start with a 100 ton dropship. Can you imagine all these people on the forums cry about "OP" light mechs killing their precious assaults. :-)

Fun fact: all the Locusts combined cost 7 732 346 C-Bills. That is about the same as a Stock STK-3F. But you need another 7 500 000 C-Bills just for DHS upgrades.

Edited by Kmieciu, 24 July 2014 - 01:21 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kmieciu, on 24 July 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

The exact tonnage you could bring into this mode is up to debate. There could be drop ships of various size for a player to buy and use. It can be set up to be both profitable for PGI and fair. Though it would be fun to actually start with a 100 ton dropship. Can you imagine all these people on the forums cry about "OP" light mechs killing their precious assaults. :-)

Fun fact: all the Locusts combined cost 7 732 346 C-Bills. That is about the same as a Stock STK-3F. But you need another 7 500 000 C-Bills just for DHS upgrades.

I would join the outcry tbh, because with that low a tonnage limit, no mechs larger than 55 tons would really be viable (2 ECM ravens and a kitfox, maybe the very rare person using 2 novas or a blackjack and a shawk). 75/80 tons would be insanely rare cos locusts suck, and 85 tons+ would literally never be used. (i actually like the fact people tend to play heavier mechs, because they are more fun to fight against, imo of course)

[Kmieciu]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 July 2014 - 01:35 AM, said:

I would join the outcry tbh, because with that low a tonnage limit, no mechs larger than 55 tons would really be viable (2 ECM ravens and a kitfox, maybe the very rare person using 2 novas or a blackjack and a shawk). 75/80 tons would be insanely rare cos locusts suck, and 85 tons+ would literally never be used. (i actually like the fact people tend to play heavier mechs, because they are more fun to fight against, imo of course)

Realistically, it should start at 120 tonnes so it would be possible to fill it using 85+35, 90+30, 95+25 and 100+20 combinations. People always talked about why in Battetech the medium mechs are the core of the army, well here is the answer: because you can field more of them.
Right now in MWO the lighter chassis have it rough because you can only take one mech into a match and naturally you'll take the best one. Since I got my Shadowhawk the rest of my medium mechs collect dust in the mechbay. Everything they do, the SHD does a bit better. But if I had to choose between bringing Hunchback+Cataphract vs Shadowhawk+Jagermech into a match, things could get interesting, since I do better in a CTF than in a JM6.
The Dropship mode would promote the use of mechs of every weight.

[Widowmaker1981]

but at 120 tons, if the limit was 4, it would still be by far the best to bring 4 kitfoxes, which was the reason i would say 220 minimum. makes the average tonnage medium, which like you say should be the workhorse, and doesnt incentivise everyone to bring 4 lights, which would make very irritating gameplay (imo)

[TheRealPope478]

Lots of good feedback on here.

My 2 cents is this. It's the clan weapons that killed light mech performance. So many stormcrows with massed lasers running at 106 kph, and timberwolves packing 4 srm 6 racks. Used to be only a solid meta strike on a light could bring it down quick. Now even glancing hits from 6 or more C er mediums will open up your legs. Add the increased fall damage to the mix and playing a light is out right dangerous. (Saw 2 lights suicide from fall damage late in the fight on terra therma tonight)

To make matters worse the clan lights are very disappointing. The adder NEEDS ecm or is practically worthless.

But beyond that lights are really lacking a true purpose in game at this point. The rewards system should be reworked so that you get a big bonus if your the first one to spot the enemy. Also you should be able to share all spotted targets not just the one you have targeted. You should also get a reward for length of time a target is lit up. And even more important is the mech weight should be taken into account when damage is done and kills scored. A spider killing a timberwolf is a big deal these days. The other way around, not so much. (side note: PGI could take into account your mechs health after you get a kill too. Bigger rewards for those epic brawls.)

[CDLord HHGD]

I'm not playing my lights right now because I have already mastered them all out..... I'm roughly half-way through my clan mechs and I have two Heroes left to master. Then I'll be back to my regular mechs...

[Mister Blastman]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 23 July 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

Quote me where I said restricting Air Strikes and Artillery will increase Light pilot population.

You are the one who suggested making Air Strike and Artillery exclusive to Lights:


I simply asked how that would increase the Light pilot population.


Yes, I did say that a well placed Artillery/Air Strike could win a match. I also said that it would be a arbitrary punishment for people in non-Light Mechs to suddenly have that option taken away. Not once did I ever say restricting it to Light Mechs only would increase the Light pilot population. In fact, I argued the exact opposite.

Here is what I actually suggested in regards to increasing Light pilot pop:


----------------

I asked you if people will give up piloting Assaults and Heavies to pilot Lights just to use Artillery/Air Strike

You said:

Nowhere in your statement do you actually answer the question asked. It was a smooth non-answer though. I didn't ask you if you think people will recognize Light mechs with Artillery/Air Strike as being important so your answer is irrelevant to what is being discussed.

The current Light pilot population already understand the value of a Light Mech. They wouldn't be piloting it otherwise because there sure as hell aren't any tangible incentives to do so. The people who are left that could boost the Light pilot population are the casual gamers.

With that clarification, do you believe the casual gamer would trade a Mech with substantially higher survivability and firepower for a Light Mech just to use Artillery/Air Strike?

You are wasting my time at this point because you aren't comprehending what I am saying. Have a good day, Sir.

[Pacifist]

Light and medium mechs need a bonus system. If you kill a significantly larger opponent you receive a noticeable C-Bill and match score bonus.


It's simple it's easy. Which is why PGI will instead come up with some convoluted Ghost Light system

Edited by Pacifist, 24 July 2014 - 03:54 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

PGI Should look into (or if they are, give us a bone) about providing a dynamic bonus of maybe 15% cbills for bringing the mech with the lowest percentage, 10% for the next lowest (or maybe 10% and 5%). Update it every 15m (with a timer so we can see it). For those with all their mechs mastered (hopefully me soon) and are just earning cbills patiently awaiting community warfare, this would incentivize piloting the less used classes to those purposes. Honestly, if I just want to grind some cbills, I'll take my DDC, not my Jenner....

[Livewyr]

PGI should look into extracombat rewards..

HSR punished lights heavily for trying to engage in direct combat. (Rightly so)
Without some incentive to do something other than direct combat, there is little reason to bring a light mech, except for:
Love of light mechs.
3/3/3/3.
ECM.