192 replies to this topic

[Bhael Fire]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 July 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

That's a bit oxymoron don't you think Roland? Solos shouldn't be afraid to face a 2 man and 10 PUGs. Don't be afraid to play with the 2 big boys.

No. Solo queue is for solo players, not groups. That's why it's called SOLO queue.

Solo queue is for solo players, group queue is for players in groups. No contradiction there.

There's an unspoken contract that when you step out into the deeper waters, you might just need a bigger boat.

[Hillslam]

So if I go n play in a match or two with a group of 9 other players in a group, can I come back in here and talk down to all the people who are suddenly less skilled than me?

[Zordicron]

SOLO is for SOLO.

My XP, matches have improved DRAMATICALLY since last change of solo only. All you guys saying stomps etc, not for me, and the few I have seen( I can count on one hand) have been during way off prime hours where the population is low, and MM is likely really struggling to match tonnage and elo and game mode for players. Hence a match I had on HPG, where someone in all chat says "I am as new as new gets" and it's followed by "me too" from two others.

During prime time, weekends, matches have been very good. Pug players are chatting, coordinating. BIG increase in that. Whats missing? The VOIP lance going off YOLO and then reprimanding the team for not following them. The VOIP team ignoring the chat messages, or the worst, leading the team to a horrible horrible position to camp it out.

You guys saying pugs are all total idiots that trip and kill themselves with a cockpit AMS ammo explosion 4 seconds into the match, well, i dont see that, at all(excepting the cadet people I see at 2 AM on monday nights etc because MM has a hard time setting up matches in the middle of the night when nobody is on) Matches are better, not the same, not worse.

I dont miss you guys.

Stick to your group section. if you want to pug somtimes, dont ***** about how its not group section. Adapt, learn to play when you dont have a VOIP commander calling all the targets for you, and telling you where to go.

Group players arent some kind of elite skill gods just because they play in groups. Maybe some are. maybe some PUGS ARE TOO. PUG play and group play are different. The tactics and method of coordination are different. the skills are not- you still point and shoot things.

The tactics and coordination method are extremely different, because of VOIP. THIS IS WHY there must be two different sections, because they are incompatible. It is that simple.

[Lyoto Machida]

Vassago Rain, on 22 July 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Let me tell you about teaching new people how to play your game. Not long ago, I had the honor of teaching pretty much everybody in my sexy guild how to play fighting games. We started with guilty gear - a game I've played since 1998.











When you're starting out, you are bad. That's just how it is. Skill is earned through experience, but to get experience, it is necessary to play a lot. As a new player, this means you'll lose a lot.

People just need to get over themselves. You're not gonna improve one bit if you keep blaming your lack of git guds on others, circumstances, or your opponents. You lose, you lose. So what? Think of what you did wrong, then challenge again.

It took how many thousands of games before we were good at robots? Yeah, lots of thousands. Even back then, the matchmaking was 'unfair,' and you'd have to carry weaker players against the most elite tryhards occasionally, but that's how you learn the most. Get your friends in a small group, and put them through the meatgrinder.

If you're not working for your experience, chances are, you're not gonna get much skill from it.

Several months later, once you've attained the guds, you've taken the throne among your friends, and think the old man's been defeated, he'll just just switch it up and give you what's really the next level.



ggclose, hucast.

Vassago Rain, on 22 July 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

If you only have 1-3 hours a week, and you don't like PVP, why then are you playing a strictly PVP online game that takes a lot of time to get good at?

Truth.

Willard Phule, on 22 July 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

I don't know about you, but I didn't learn the game under these circumstances. I've been playing since MW2, it wasn't hard for me to get the hang of MW:O.

No offense, but your "suck it up and keep trying" equates to a 12 year old trying to play football against a College team. It doesn't matter how hard he tries, it's not an even playing field.

When we need to get our 'mech on, we do it in TableTop now. Can't say as I blame the kid, it isn't as if there aren't a million better developed games out there for him to get into.

Sorry, bruh...this is how life works. When you engage in a competitve activity, you have to take your lumps in the early stages...doesn't matter if we're talking video games, combat sports, auto racing, basketball, sales contests or whatever.

Not everyone is meant to be a superstar but with enough time and practice, you can at least become average or better than that.

In real life, I train Muay Thai (for fun...not to fight competitvely as a pro). The turnover rate in combat sports gyms are pretty high. Why? Because some people come in and sign up so they can say do Muay Thai, boxing, etc but then they find out how much hard work goes into it and they disappear 30-60 days later...never to be seen again.

Obviously, we're talking about a video game here but it's a video game that's played against other people in a competitive manner. Some of the same things apply and part of it is that you're going to take your lumps against people who have been doing it longer and/or are better than you.

If you lose 10 games in a row and never have the desire to put in the time to figure out how to get better, maybe this isn't the right game for you (figuratively speaking).

Perhaps this game is a bit much anyways for most 12 year old kids...maybe get him started on a traditional CoD type shooter and then move him onto a tank game before trying this again. I don't see what's stopping you from having him learn on the same MW games that you learned on either.

[NextGame]

Shadow Magnet, on 22 July 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

I think nobody in this thread requested that groups should get back into the solo queue, or?

The solo queue is quite ok at it is now, it still needs some refinement but leave groups out.

But I am tired of people saying "just train harder, you will eventually become better and can take on those pro gamers". Sorry, why is it so hard to understand that there are people that only have 1-3 hours per week to play and will never never reach the level of those that can play 20-30+ hours per week. You want to scare those away? And at the same time complain about the long MM queue wait times because we don't have enough players?




Aha, so everyone below your "level" is incompetent, and of course, you personally represent the "majority" of players in MWO, you personally define how to measure the quality of this game and everyone that has not your opinion is a "minority". Hmm, yes, PGI should listen to you...

I think its comical that you seem to think I play more than 1-3 hours per week. This game isn't that complicated.

MWO Ten commandments

1) Group your weapons appropriately.
2) Stand in the right places and move at the right times.
3) Torso twist when under fire.
4) Dont go rambo, stick with your team.
5) Play the role most suitable to the mech you have brought.
6) Take your chances, dont hesitate.
7) Cover/ECM/AMS are your friends.
8) Always engage when you have the advantage and look for support when doing so.
9) Manage your heat appropriately.
10) Everyone loses sometimes, man up.

Edited by NextGame, 22 July 2014 - 11:49 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

They should make 1vs1 private games free. Then you could train new players in one on one private games.

[LiGhtningFF13]

Very interesting thread here with a real problem. Well I would say let two men groups fight other 2 men groups?! I know very hard to manage for PGI.

[Mazzyplz]

XX Sulla XX, on 23 July 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

They should make 1vs1 private games free. Then you could train new players in one on one private games.

1v1 doesn't reflect the reality of the game; you can't play a support mech in 1v1.

my friend destroys me every time in 1v1 but as a team we're about even when we drop 2-man

that's because he plays a facehumper killin machine and i play a sniper.
ever tried a sniper in 1v1? it doesn't freaking work.

[ShinVector]

Mazzyplz, on 23 July 2014 - 12:16 AM, said:

1v1 doesn't reflect the reality of the game; you can't play a support mech in 1v1.

my friend destroys me every time in 1v1 but as a team we're about even when we drop 2-man

that's because he plays a facehumper killin machine and i play a sniper.
ever tried a sniper in 1v1? it doesn't freaking work.

Though I am pretty sure he meant showing someone the ropes in 1v1 mode rather than KILLING HIM right off the bat.
There are many kinds of Snipers mechs... One of them could possibly be extremely hard to beat...

[Sinister Maestro]

No to 2 men Groups in the Solo Queue. The next will be 3 men Groups and then 4 men Groups who want to sneak back in the Solo Queue.

The Solo Queue is fine and fun now.

[Mazzyplz]

ShinVector, on 23 July 2014 - 12:29 AM, said:

Though I am pretty sure he meant showing someone the ropes in 1v1 mode rather than KILLING HIM right off the bat.
There are many kinds of Snipers mechs... One of them could possibly be extremely hard to beat...

ahh lol well that makes sense but only if you also put some shutdown mechs like the training grounds but for 2 people, that would be a neat idea... training grounds but for more than 1 person

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

1v1 doesn't reflect the reality of the game; you can't play a support mech in 1v1.

my friend destroys me every time in 1v1 but as a team we're about even when we drop 2-man

that's because he plays a facehumper killin machine and i play a sniper.
ever tried a sniper in 1v1? it doesn't freaking work.

As some one said I ment training. You can teach some one how to pilot well in one vs one. You can also show them how the maps are played and the best spots and where teams normally move etc. It is a great way to train people if used correctly.

[ShinVector]

Mazzyplz, on 23 July 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

ahh lol well that makes sense but only if you also put some shutdown mechs like the training grounds but for 2 people, that would be a neat idea... training grounds but for more than 1 person

Agreed.. PGI 'COULD' do a lot of things to help if they wanted too.. Hiaz.... Oh well... Maybe we will slowly get there...

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Tsig, on 22 July 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

since we've already proven that the Premade Boogeyman wasn't to blame for PuG Stomps.

From what I recall after the first MM patch went live (and the reason why I started posting on the forum), Groups of 2-4 were supposed to have been able to drop in the Solo Queue. A couple of days went by and this Forum was flooded with amazing positive threads about how much better the Solo Queue became with the "3/3/3/3" (release valves and all) and the sudden segregation of Solo players in the Solo Queue and Grouped players in the Group Queue.

Stomps were suddenly a small fraction of games being played. A majority of matches were ending with 12-4/6 scores with a noticeable increase in extremely tight 12-8/10 matches. I say noticeable because matches with that kind of final score were a rare occurrence. At the same time the rave reviews regarding the Solo Queue changes we coming in, the casual groupers that were restricted to the Group Queue started to hiss and moan about how unfair it is to be placed in matches where they didn't have what it takes to "suck it up" or weren't able to "learn to play". The QQ was glorious.

The negative Nancy's were telling everyone left and right that Groups were still allowed in Solo Queue and that everything the Solo Queue players were experiencing was bullsh*t. Then the servers went down and an official Tweet announced that Groups are now allowed back in to the Solo Queue. That official Tweet kind of proves the opposite of what you claim. Premade groups were, in fact, largely responsible for horrible matches in the Solo Queue.

In the day immediately following the server reset, people started posting that they were seeing an increase in stomps with the re-introduction of Groups in the Solo Queue. Flame battles ensued in many threads. One I was hotly involved in got deleted as I was posting a response! lol It happened at 3am'ish my time (PST) which really surprised me.

I guess they realized that they screwed the pooch hard by accidentally giving us Solo Queue players a taste of what it was like to play without any Groups in the Solo Queue and they had to make a decision on who to please: All the Solo Queue players or the casual groupers who suddenly found themselves on the receiving end of stomp after stomp.

In the end I guess enough damage was done and they decided to revert the Queues back to Solo for Solo and Group for Group.

I highly doubt PGI wants to go through all that again.

Another interesting thing that happened were the bad who thought they were good sticking with the premade groups in matches found out that they really are bad without that crutch to lean on and spew nothing but hate towards other Solo Queue players. If they are such hot sh*t, why aren't they in competitive groups bashing out Groups games like nothing. Instead, they're in the Solo Queue claiming that everyone else is a noob and that all of a sudden they have to carry the entire match blah blah blahblahblahblahblah.

TL;DR
Current system good.
Reverting back bad.

Can't handle playing in a pure Group environment, "Suck it up" and "Learn to Play".

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 23 July 2014 - 12:44 AM.

[Lykaon]

Hillslam, on 22 July 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

So if I go n play in a match or two with a group of 9 other players in a group, can I come back in here and talk down to all the people who are suddenly less skilled than me?

Make it a couple hundred group matches.(preferably with the same merc corp clan or house unit)

A match or two is not enough for anyone to really learn anything or for that matter to unlearn all the bad habits pugging teaches.

Playing like a pug in the group queue is about as effective as playing like your team has your back in the solo queue.

[Hohlfrucht]

I like the new Solo Queue Experience. There is the occasional roflstomp, but i have also had a lot of very close and tense games, where the last surviving mechs (all damaged and missing a few parts here and there) were fighting it out in an epic Stand. I don't have to play the boring Meta Builds in this Queue and (depending on the map) I can sometimes even enjoy playing my beloved Brawlers.

I hate the new Group Queue. A friend of mine and I have startet MWO together and have always enjoyed playing as a 2 man group from time to time. We never "stomped over Newbies" or whatever else people tell themselves when thinking about the "oh so dangerous" 2 man groups. Since the new MM was implemented we have played a few matches, but the Group Queue is everyting i hate about MWO and Online Gaming in general. A lot of tryhards who greet you with "Hello from the 1284th army of whatever 12397th platoon of idontcare" or end the games writing "gg close" although you just got your ass handed to you 0-12. Meta Builds where ever you look and the hated Blobbing shows its ugly face again. Whoever has more players grouped together using voice com will probably win. Seldom have i seen tense and close games in this mode and have thus given up on the Group Queue. I am very happy, that each and every Tryhard Metabuild Pilot has joined the Group Queue and is not bothering me in the Solo Queue.

In Conclusion i will probably give up on playing MWO with my friend. There are plenty of other games with coop functionality that don't annoy me like the MWO Group Queue. When i play MWO i will play Solo. Its sad but its the way it will be from now on.

[Impyrium]

I'm pretty sure that technical limitations mean that this couldn't happen anyway. Ten-man groups wouldn't work. The current MM is only just working anyhow, considering the amount of trouble they had with mixed queues before deciding to fully separate it.

[Haipyng]

This is a repeat of the same issues on the Group MM. It isn't a matter of adding two mans back into the Solo queue at all. We just need to pit like groups against like groups.

Not to over generalize, but sticking multiple small groups against a larger group is not going to be an even battle in most cases. I see this frequently when I run small groups. We win very few and lose many matches. The few we win are when we get pitted against other small groups (wins are tight margins) or we land on a large premade team and it turns into a stomp.

Groups have more classes than just "group". The small groups are really no different than PUGs. It may make the Tryhards feel good about themselves to smash these small group PUGs repeatedly and then tell complaining players that are sick of being pummeled in match after match, that they need to "L2P" or to "just quit".

Aside from showing poor sportsmanship, it shows a lack of simple respect. PGI needs all kinds of players to help fund MWO. Without the lowly small group PUGs, the Tryhards won't have their playground either.

[VixNix]

Someone had made a suggestion for MM, something along the lines of...

largest group size +/- 1

So if team A has a six man for their largest group then team B cant have their largest group bigger than seven nor smaller than five group, the rest would be filled with two's and singles.

I have also seen requests and/or suggestions that numbers and sizes of groups be delineated somehow.

And that group mates have a different color icon on the battle field, green perhaps, so all the people you drop with would have green, unless they are in your lance, that would make it easier to group up with the friends you dropped with.

This mysterious ELO, not sure what it is, if its supposed to control grouping somehow then it needs to be based on the mech you are dropping in. Yes separate ELO by mech and starting at average seems wrong.

Edited by VixNix, 23 July 2014 - 04:23 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Lyoto Machida, on 22 July 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

Truth.



Sorry, bruh...this is how life works. When you engage in a competitve activity, you have to take your lumps in the early stages...doesn't matter if we're talking video games, combat sports, auto racing, basketball, sales contests or whatever.

Not everyone is meant to be a superstar but with enough time and practice, you can at least become average or better than that.

In real life, I train Muay Thai (for fun...not to fight competitvely as a pro). The turnover rate in combat sports gyms are pretty high. Why? Because some people come in and sign up so they can say do Muay Thai, boxing, etc but then they find out how much hard work goes into it and they disappear 30-60 days later...never to be seen again.

Obviously, we're talking about a video game here but it's a video game that's played against other people in a competitive manner. Some of the same things apply and part of it is that you're going to take your lumps against people who have been doing it longer and/or are better than you.

If you lose 10 games in a row and never have the desire to put in the time to figure out how to get better, maybe this isn't the right game for you (figuratively speaking).

Perhaps this game is a bit much anyways for most 12 year old kids...maybe get him started on a traditional CoD type shooter and then move him onto a tank game before trying this again. I don't see what's stopping you from having him learn on the same MW games that you learned on either.

Dude.

We're talking about a video game that is supposed to be carrying on in the tradition of other MW titles.

I learned to play with the 1-player campaigns on MW2, MW3 and MW4 before ever going live to play with other people. Those other titles also had tutorials that were easy to follow.

MW:O is NOT "new player" friendly. Not one bit.

As for this game being a "competitive activity," I can see that you're primarily a Group player. The PUG is not a competitive activity. If it were, there would be some kind of separation based on people's skills.

Althought I understand your Muay Thai analogy, I find it completely inadequate. NO martial art will put a new student up against experienced ones just so the experienced students will have a punching bag to beat on...especially those with a combat application. Unless, of course, you live in a country that doesn't have civil lawsuits and injury liability laws.

My whole point here is that MW:O is not friendly to new players. PGI has decided that new players should be put into a meat grinder without any meaningful form of instruction....as long as they fork over some cash before they go.

Using your Muay Thai example, that would be the equivalent of some guy walking in off the street and being placed in a full-contact match with your instructor without any form of training whatsoever....and he gets to do it over and over and over until he learns Muay Thai. Noone is going to actually teach him anything, he has to learn the strikes from catching them in the face. How long do you think he's going to stick around? Granted, since you learned Muay Thai from an actual teacher before they adopted the practice of "learn by being beaten," you get to call the guy a wuss and "gg close." Because that's what goes on here in the PUG queue.

Edited by Willard Phule, 23 July 2014 - 04:40 AM.