180 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

Sandpit, on 24 July 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

I'm not "arguing" anything. I'm pointing out the flaw in your logic.
I don't like a map
I should be able to blacklist it

I don't like a mech
I should be able to blacklist it

There's zero difference in those examples

When you present it very superficially like that you can make a connection between a number of things that aren't really identical.

Soccer: You try to put a ball into a net.
Basketball: you try to put a ball into a net.

Soccer is therefore no different than basketball.

On the surface there is nothing wrong with filtering out everything that makes the game unfun for you. But below that it breaks down when you look at the details. If you would like to make a thread about the virtues of a mech blacklist feature I will discuss it with you. But it's kind of a waste of time refuting a hypothetical argument no one is actually proposing. There are different pros and cons to consider such as would the matchmaker even be able to handle that level of filtering? Particularly if you X out a super-popular mech.

[IraqiWalker]

Jman5, on 24 July 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Limited map filters exist in nearly every multiplayer game in existence. This is not some slippery slope feature where we will eventually reach some point where you're only ever fighting locusts without any weapons equipped on river city night. It is a tried and true feature that is common across games because most players like the choice.

Every single one of those games has over 20 maps. So you can change and edit rotations. We don't have that many.

Plus, anyone that has a problem with a map should try and actually do something other than go to the center and die. Take your team to the side, explore some weird corner that you haven't seen since the second day the map came out.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 24 July 2014 - 10:45 AM.

[Ph30nix]

each map has its place its just current game modes and styles force them to be in places they shouldnt be.

[anonymous161]

I'll agree it would be nice to have a vote feature not a whether you down vote the current map you should be able to choose out of all of the maps which one the majority wants to play, that would be pretty cool and rather new actually since usually like in the halo games you can downvote the game but you might just get another crappy one you cant choose which map you want to play unless you still have the pc version of halo but that one is in even worse shape than this game.

On another note we simply dont have enough maps to just get rid of any of them.

[Bront]

IraqiWalker, on 24 July 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Every single one of those games has over 20 maps. So you can change and edit rotations. We don't have that many.

Plus, anyone that has a problem with a map should try and actually do something other than go to the center and die. Take your team to the side, explore some weird corner that you haven't seen since the second day the map came out.

On the number of maps issue, the last dev blog post addressed 2 new maps (Jungle/Swamp and Mech Factory), as well as variations on current maps.

The Variations sounds bad (I mean, river city and river city night don't play that differently, though Frozen City/FCN and Forest Colony/FCS play a bit differently), but it could help with community warfare by offering maps that fit a planet better, or offer something different (like they mentioned Canyon Network Flood as an example).

That said, MWO needs more maps, and it needs them fast. Complaints about maps tend to lessen when there's a large rotation of them available, since you should see the ones you dislike less.

[Bront]

Darth Bane001, on 24 July 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'll agree it would be nice to have a vote feature not a whether you down vote the current map you should be able to choose out of all of the maps which one the majority wants to play, that would be pretty cool and rather new actually since usually like in the halo games you can downvote the game but you might just get another crappy one you cant choose which map you want to play unless you still have the pc version of halo but that one is in even worse shape than this game.

On another note we simply dont have enough maps to just get rid of any of them.

Most vote systems give you a choice of just a small number. Works better, less likely to have ties, and forces some level of map rotation on everyone.

Imagine after the matchmaker finds your drop goup, you're presented with 3 maps, and have 30 seconds to vote (as well as chat with your team or drop folks in general) before you get to the actual map. It will slow down dropping a bit more (probably by about a minute), so there is a downside, but you can attempt to avoid dropping on a map that doesn't suit your mech well.

[CDLord HHGD]

Bront, on 24 July 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

On the number of maps issue, the last dev blog post addressed 2 new maps (Jungle/Swamp and Mech Factory), as well as variations on current maps.

The Variations sounds bad (I mean, river city and river city night don't play that differently, though Frozen City/FCN and Forest Colony/FCS play a bit differently), but it could help with community warfare by offering maps that fit a planet better, or offer something different (like they mentioned Canyon Network Flood as an example).

That said, MWO needs more maps, and it needs them fast. Complaints about maps tend to lessen when there's a large rotation of them available, since you should see the ones you dislike less.

I'd like to see an Alpine Peaks Summer or Thaw map. Get that lake wet! Put in some trees and greenery! What's underneath the snow? The pass that was passable with snow is now a rock face hidden beneath? That changes everything!

[Joseph Mallan]

Livewyr, on 23 July 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

Exactly why should they do that?
I would like to fix maps, like Alpine and HPG, but why remove them?

There should be a better reason than "I do not like it!" (I do not playing with Stalker Missile Boats, or entire teams of Jump snipers.. and yet I do, and do not demand the ability to banish them.)

They are a part of the game...

You know, one should not like all maps. Some maps should be the bane of a players existence. Why? Cause people don't like everything.

[Sandpit]

Jman5, on 24 July 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

When you present it very superficially like that you can make a connection between a number of things that aren't really identical.

Soccer: You try to put a ball into a net.
Basketball: you try to put a ball into a net.

Soccer is therefore no different than basketball.

On the surface there is nothing wrong with filtering out everything that makes the game unfun for you. But below that it breaks down when you look at the details. If you would like to make a thread about the virtues of a mech blacklist feature I will discuss it with you. But it's kind of a waste of time refuting a hypothetical argument no one is actually proposing. There are different pros and cons to consider such as would the matchmaker even be able to handle that level of filtering? Particularly if you X out a super-popular mech.

no, really it's not

It's the exact same principle

You are asking other players to have to skip a map because YOU don't like it. That's EXACTLY what's being asked for. There's no other way to sugar coat it. You're asking for a map to be removed from your rotation because you don't like it.
I asked for a mech to be removed from rotation because I don't like it.

There's is no difference other than you want to justify YOUR suggestion because you personally like it.

You don't get to blacklist all the hot maps just because you like to run hot mechs.
Vice versa, you don't get to blacklist cold maps just because you run cool builds and want to always ensure the enemy running hotter builds is at a disadvantage.
You don't get to blacklist all the "maps with lots of cover" just because you like running LRM boats and it's "better" for you to wind up on one of those maps.

Are you starting to see what the suggestion is a bad one?

Edited by Sandpit, 24 July 2014 - 01:00 PM.

[3rdworld]

Sandpit, on 24 July 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

no, really it's not

It's the exact same principle

You are asking other players to have to skip a map because YOU don't like it. That's EXACTLY what's being asked for. There's no other way to sugar coat it. You're asking for a map to be removed from your rotation because you don't like it.
I asked for a mech to be removed from rotation because I don't like it.

There's is no difference other than you want to justify YOUR suggestion because you personally like it.

You don't get to blacklist all the hot maps just because you like to run hot mechs.
Vice versa, you don't get to blacklist cold maps just because you run cool builds and want to always ensure the enemy running hotter builds is at a disadvantage.
You don't get to blacklist all the "maps with lots of cover" just because you like running LRM boats and it's "better" for you to wind up on one of those maps.

Are you starting to see what the suggestion is a bad one?

In any other shooter you pick a loadout after you are aware of the map/mode.

inb4 MWO isn't a shooter!!!!1!!!11!!1!

and CAPITALIZE FOR EMPHASIS

[Sandpit]

3rdworld, on 24 July 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

In any other shooter you pick a loadout after you are aware of the map/mode.

inb4 MWO isn't a shooter!!!!1!!!11!!1!

and CAPITALIZE FOR EMPHASIS

which has what to do with blacklisting maps?

[3rdworld]

Sandpit, on 24 July 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

which has what to do with blacklisting maps?

Your objections are irrelevant if this game had the basic features included with any other shooter?

Edited by 3rdworld, 24 July 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[Sandpit]

3rdworld, on 24 July 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

Your objections are irrelevant if this game had the basic features included with any other shooter?

NO it's not, you'd still ahve players doing exactly what I laid out. You'd have players who want ot run hot builds blacklist all the hot maps
You'd have players who want to run LRM boats blacklist all of the city maps with lots of cover
You'd have players who hate LRMs blacklist all the wide open maps

The amount of maps wouldn't change anything other than the amount of maps those players would blacklist so they never have to play on them. I can't think of any other shooter online that allows you to just make a blanket "remove" option for a specific map.

[3rdworld]

Sandpit, on 24 July 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

NO it's not, you'd still ahve players doing exactly what I laid out. You'd have players who want ot run hot builds blacklist all the hot maps
You'd have players who want to run LRM boats blacklist all of the city maps with lots of cover
You'd have players who hate LRMs blacklist all the wide open maps

The amount of maps wouldn't change anything other than the amount of maps those players would blacklist so they never have to play on them. I can't think of any other shooter online that allows you to just make a blanket "remove" option for a specific map.

Why is that a bad thing? You do understand the biggest selling point for a game is fun? If a map such as that pos Terra Therma are not fun to play, you are not benefiting the game or the player in any way.

No in any other shooter, once the map was picked you could either leave the match and a replacement player is found, or you can select a loadout appropriate to the map you are playing. And most other shooters allow players to vote skip a map if they don't want to play on it.

As we do not have any of those features, a quick solution would be to allow players to select which maps they don't want to play on.

Edited by 3rdworld, 24 July 2014 - 01:28 PM.

[Sandpit]

3rdworld, on 24 July 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

Why is that a bad thing? You do understand the biggest selling point for a game is fun? If a map such as that pos Terra Therma are not fun to play, you are not benefiting the game or the player in any way.

No in any other shooter, once the map was picked you could either leave the match and a replacement player is found, or you can select a loadout appropriate to the map you are playing. And most other shooters allow players to vote skip a map if they don't want to play on it.

First it was my points were irrelevant, now it's "why is it a bad thing" which has already been pointed out.

You do understand that you're not the only person playing this game and that you shouldn't be allowed to only play in a fashion that is advantageous to you right? You do realize that fun for me is being able to occasionally take my mechs that are built to work well in all climates out on a hot map against people who have poor designs and only want to play on certain maps because on other maps they have to think more right?

This isn't those games, you don't have the option ot drop out and have another player fill in. SO THAT is irrelevant. You're talking about features that aren't in this game to defend a suggestion.

There's a huge difference between a map vote and unilaterally blacklisting a map so you never have to play on it. Map voting allows me to have just as much say in what map we all play on as you do. Huge difference

[MischiefSC]

I would like to only run on coldmaps with my hot builds and hot maps with cold builds.


Actually, can we just get heat and ammo toggles? I only have fun when things are simple and with as little challenge as possible.

[CDLord HHGD]

MischiefSC, on 24 July 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

I would like to only run on coldmaps with my hot builds and hot maps with cold builds.


Actually, can we just get heat and ammo toggles? I only have fun when things are simple and with as little challenge as possible.

Can I take my optimized (and yet not meta) mech into a fight against only stock builds?

[3rdworld]

Sandpit, on 24 July 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

First it was my points were irrelevant, now it's "why is it a bad thing" which has already been pointed out.

You do understand that you're not the only person playing this game and that you shouldn't be allowed to only play in a fashion that is advantageous to you right? You do realize that fun for me is being able to occasionally take my mechs that are built to work well in all climates out on a hot map against people who have poor designs and only want to play on certain maps because on other maps they have to think more right?

This isn't those games, you don't have the option ot drop out and have another player fill in. SO THAT is irrelevant. You're talking about features that aren't in this game to defend a suggestion.

There's a huge difference between a map vote and unilaterally blacklisting a map so you never have to play on it. Map voting allows me to have just as much say in what map we all play on as you do. Huge difference

Not really, in voting you get to play the maps you want to play on, as do I. You simply feel the need to tell other people what they have to play, I say let anyone play what maps/builds they want.

I love that you think people want to avoid certain maps because of their issues. Not that the map is completely awful, which quite a few are just terrible either in certain modes, or in general.

This game is completely lacking in tons of features. I am suggesting a band-aide until they are here. Dropship mode should handle most of what I said.

[Sandpit]

3rdworld, on 24 July 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

Not really, in voting you get to play the maps you want to play on, as do I. You simply feel the need to tell other people what they have to play, I say let anyone play what maps/builds they want.

I love that you think people want to avoid certain maps because of their issues. Not that the map is completely awful, which quite a few are just terrible either in certain modes, or in general.

This game is completely lacking in tons of features. I am suggesting a band-aide until they are here. Dropship mode should handle most of what I said.

No, in voting all 24 players get to decide the map, not you cherry picking only the maps that ensure you have the most optimized conditions for your mech build. This isn't going to happen, I'm just trying to point out WHY it isn't going to happen. If you want matches like that you have private matches available to you where you can have all the fun you want on only the maps you want running only the mechs you want.

Use private matches for what they're for.

You opinion of "awful" doesn't warrant me not being able to drop on that map if I feel differently. The entire population of players here shouldn't have map rotation dictated by you, or anyone else, that's exactly that kind of thing private matches give you. There's where you can have your version of fun.

[3rdworld]

Sandpit, on 24 July 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

No, in voting all 24 players get to decide the map, not you cherry picking only the maps that ensure you have the most optimized conditions for your mech build. This isn't going to happen, I'm just trying to point out WHY it isn't going to happen. If you want matches like that you have private matches available to you where you can have all the fun you want on only the maps you want running only the mechs you want.

Use private matches for what they're for.

You opinion of "awful" doesn't warrant me not being able to drop on that map if I feel differently. The entire population of players here shouldn't have map rotation dictated by you, or anyone else, that's exactly that kind of thing private matches give you. There's where you can have your version of fun.

With voting 24 players don't decide a map. The majority vote decides the map. Lets assume for a second you like Terra Therma, so you do not blacklist it. How many times would a majority vote pick Terra Therma? Rarely, if ever. In blacklisting you would get to play Terra Therma with any of the other players that don't mind it. So really this would be a favorable solution to you vs voting.

How exactly would a player choosing not to drop on X map, suddenly prevent you from playing on a map? Unless the general population believes a map to be bad, and chooses not to use it.

Let us not try to find a solution to make both parties happy. SandPit has fun this way, and so it must be, so it shall be, seyla

Edited by 3rdworld, 24 July 2014 - 02:12 PM.