162 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 24 July 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Who cares about the 700+ more yards of effective engagement envelope, right? That gives the DWF the time to shoot 3 Alphas before the Atlas can respond in any significant way. That 700 yards negates every single one of the advantages you listed for the Atlas. And you were the one to talk about glossing over cons?

And the scubs who run out into the open against a mech with a 700+M reach deserve to have their mech scrapped.

Simple as that.

Gas Guzzler, on 24 July 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

I don't know, that Timber Wolf that relies on 24 SRMs with Artemis as its primary weapon with 4 ER Mediums says otherwise.

How many SRMs are concentrated on a single location? It may deal damage, and will kill in short order, but not efficiently.

Edited by Mcgral18, 24 July 2014 - 04:18 PM.

[Red1769]

Mcgral18, on 24 July 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

And the scubs who run out into the open against a mech with a 700+M reach deserve to have their mech scrapped.

Simple as that.

I'm gonna elaborate on this one. There are a total of what? 3, 4 maps that favor long range combat? Those being Alpine, Tourmaline Desert, Caustic, and...is there another one? Everywhere else depends very much on where, like Forest colony, in the hills/cave for medium to short range or water for long range (or how much cover you favor), Canyon Network, up top are the long range playground, in the trenches short to medium range playground. For the exception of those few maps, range is only an advantage if you let it.

Even Tourmaline (or however you spell it) desert have some good cover. So I agree with McGral on this point.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Mcgral18, on 24 July 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

And the scubs who run out into the open against a mech with a 700+M reach deserve to have their mech scrapped.

Simple as that.

So it's okay for the Atlas people to base their argument using 3 parameter that influence a fight heavily towards the Atlas:
1.) The Atlas will always get to within 270 meters without taking appreciable damage.
2.) The Atlas will always be able to engage the DWF in an area advantageous to a close range build.
3.) The Atlas will always be able to flank a DWF because the DWF will always place itself in an area with broken LoS and, more importantly, concealment for you to approach.

I respond using three paramaters that will influence a fight in the favor of the DWF:
1.) The DWF will always engage at 1000 meters and shoot off an Atlas' leg.
2.) The DWF will always engage in an area advantageous to the DWF
3.) The DWF will always place itself well away from any concealment and with unbroken sight-lines

Suddenly my argument is invalid? Your argument can't be valid if mine is invalid because I based mine on equally favorable parameters that you used for yours.

You guys love cherry-picking how you argue things.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 24 July 2014 - 04:56 PM.

[Gyrok]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 24 July 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Who cares about the 700+ more yards of effective engagement envelope, right? That gives the DWF the time to shoot 3 Alphas before the Atlas can respond in any significant way. That 700 yards negates every single one of the advantages you listed for the Atlas. And you were the one to talk about glossing over cons?

I am not getting back into a debate with you about Strategy and tactics, in the last argument you showed you were incapable of accommodating for those. So this snarky, asinine response that does not take that into account is only worth pointing out for the useless nature and lack of information to refute my points.

To quote the HoL: "ggclose"

[Gyrok]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 24 July 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

So it's okay for the Atlas people to base their argument using 3 parameter that influence a fight heavily towards the Atlas:
1.) The Atlas will always get to within 270 meters without taking appreciable damage.
2.) The DWF will always engage the Atlas in an area advantageous to a close range build.
3.) The DWF will place itself in an area that offers concealment for an enemy to ambush and has broken LoS

I respond using three paramaters that will influence a fight in the favor of the DWF:
1.) The DWF will always engage at 1000 meters and shoot off an Atlas' leg.
2.) The DWF will always engage in an area advantageous to the DWF
3.) The DWF will always place itself well away from any concealment and with unbroken sight-lines

Suddenly my argument is invalid? Your argument can't be valid if mine is invalid because I based mine on equally favorable parameters that you used for yours.

You guys love cherry-picking how you argue things.

Because NO Atlas pilot moves in the open. You may be slower, but you take the scenic route and look at the pretty, protective "OP" rocks and trees that block LOS, and rely on your ECM to eliminate location information and indirect fire.

You make assumptions that only someone who has not driven a "HAWG" assault mech would make.

This shows your mindset is bent on lighter mechs that foolishly traverse open stretches of terrain because they have speed to do so quickly. In an assault mech, you think out your route much more carefully, and you do not move without a plan. A good plan also includes knowing where the enemy is, or estimating where they will be when you arrive. Furthermore, the best plans involve ways to manipulate the enemy to engage where you want.

If you cannot accommodate for human intelligence, then perhaps you should see if there are other games out there...like farmville or maybe you can find a my little pony game...?

Edited by Gyrok, 24 July 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Gyrok, on 24 July 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

I am not getting back into a debate with you about Strategy and tactics, in the last argument you showed you were incapable of accommodating for those. So this snarky, asinine response that does not take that into account is only worth pointing out for the useless nature and lack of information to refute my points.

To quote the HoL: "ggclose"

Break my logic chain and point out a flaw. I do that with yours all the time. You can't base an argument with padded parameters and then cry foul when someone does the same thing to disprove your point.

[Red1769]

Ok, I didn't say your arguement is invalid. The map would determine who has the overall advantage, assuming both players aren't going to rush each other when the timer goes out.

Forest Colony, I would say is a draw. Neither should be going out of their most advantagous spot.

Canyon, I would say the Atlas, simply because he can easily get the drop on the Dire Wolf from the ground.

Those three maps I listed favoring long range builds? Dire Wolf, if they can return fire when getting pummelled by LRMs (due to impulse. I guess some pilots have trouble with that, and assuming the Atlas is packing a longer ranged build). Or in the case of Tourmaline and Caustic, there are a couple areas that could make for good sneak up points and ambush them. Never underestimate an ambush.

River City, I think it's a toss up due to how small it is. There's plenty of cover to get close, but you also can't ambush him very well. Whoever can aim better.

Frozen, Draw. The Tunnel (by virtue of no where to run/manuever/no cover at all) and open areas are the Dire's sweet spots. The more Urban areas the Atlas's. Well, tunnel could be either, considering the Dire, dispite the hit box buff, still can't distribute damage as well as an Atlas (I think, it's been since closed beta since I've piloted an Atlas).

I could continue, but I would hope you get the point. As Gyrok said, it's dependant on human intelligence and the people in question. Now that is also one v. one. Most times, you'll have teammates, some of questionable quality and some of amazing quality, with various mechs and builds. But that's getting into quite a few more variables than what there already are. Both mechs have their advantages and disadvantages. In my opinion, the Dire Wolf is more situational due to the lack of agility, as even an Atlas can have more of it.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Gyrok, on 24 July 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

Because NO Atlas pilot moves in the open.

You know that space between various points of cover/concealment? That's "open". That allows people to take shots at you......... Sorry, let me be more precise. That's "clear" space, but can also be considered "open".

Gyrok, on 24 July 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

You make assumptions that only someone who has not driven a "HAWG" assault mech would make.

You're making assumptions to favor the Atlas. I'm following your lead and making assumptions that favor the DWF. Why are my assumptions any less valid than yours? Is it because when I make favorable assumptions for the DWF, your Atlas supremacy theory is unraveled?

Gyrok, on 24 July 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

This shows your mindset is bent on lighter mechs that foolishly traverse open stretches of terrain because they have speed to do so quickly. In an assault mech, you think out your route much more carefully, and you do not move without a plan. A good plan also includes knowing where the enemy is, or estimating where they will be when you arrive. Furthermore, the best plans involve ways to manipulate the enemy to engage where you want.

So only an Atlas pilot is capable of this? Someone piloting a DWF doesn't have the same capacity an Atlas pilot does?

Gyrok, on 24 July 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

If you cannot accommodate for human intelligence, then perhaps you should see if there are other games out there...like farmville or maybe you can find a my little pony game...?

Abusive Ad Hominem. Thanks for proving my point of not having anything of substance to talk about.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 24 July 2014 - 05:36 PM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Red1769, on 24 July 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Ok, I didn't say your arguement is invalid. The map would determine who has the overall advantage, assuming both players aren't going to rush each other when the timer goes out.

Forest Colony, I would say is a draw. Neither should be going out of their most advantagous spot.

Canyon, I would say the Atlas, simply because he can easily get the drop on the Dire Wolf from the ground.

Those three maps I listed favoring long range builds? Dire Wolf, if they can return fire when getting pummelled by LRMs (due to impulse. I guess some pilots have trouble with that, and assuming the Atlas is packing a longer ranged build). Or in the case of Tourmaline and Caustic, there are a couple areas that could make for good sneak up points and ambush them. Never underestimate an ambush.

River City, I think it's a toss up due to how small it is. There's plenty of cover to get close, but you also can't ambush him very well. Whoever can aim better.

Frozen, Draw. The Tunnel (by virtue of no where to run/manuever/no cover at all) and open areas are the Dire's sweet spots. The more Urban areas the Atlas's. Well, tunnel could be either, considering the Dire, dispite the hit box buff, still can't distribute damage as well as an Atlas (I think, it's been since closed beta since I've piloted an Atlas).

I could continue, but I would hope you get the point. As Gyrok said, it's dependant on human intelligence and the people in question. Now that is also one v. one. Most times, you'll have teammates, some of questionable quality and some of amazing quality, with various mechs and builds. But that's getting into quite a few more variables than what there already are. Both mechs have their advantages and disadvantages. In my opinion, the Dire Wolf is more situational due to the lack of agility, as even an Atlas can have more of it.

The invalidate portion was for Gyrok and McGral18.

I agree with what you said. I've always maintained that the DWF has an advantage over the Atlas based on the effective engagement envelope of the weapons the DWF can carry, but I've also said that certain maps, as you illustrated, will make a fight favor the Atlas. I've said as much in numerous replies to Gyrok, but he doesn't seem to get it.

Thank you for engaging in a constructive conversation. I appreciate how you broke your arguments down on a map by map basis. You did not make a blanket statement. If more people did that instead of asserting their position with blanket statements and assumed infallibility then things would be better on the forums.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 24 July 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[jaxjace]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 July 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

Lights are generally tonnage-impaired, not hard-point impaired. There is nothing PGI can do about that without also throwing what remains of the book out the window.

The agility stuff, on the other hand, I would love to see in the game.

Oh, and the risk of dying in 1 to 3 hits is part of what makes driving a Light so fun! In the face of the meta-brawlers, it turns MWO into a much brainier game.

JENNNNERRRRSSS!!!!!!!! the LEG CHOMPERS! A light with max armor, 2 jump jets, max speed over 160 kph and with a 30 pinpoint alpha to boot! if more people ran jenner fs they might see the benefits of it.

[badaa]

another problem of pinpoint

[Red1769]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 24 July 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

The invalidate portion was for Gyrok and McGral18.

I agree with what you said. I've always maintained that the DWF has an advantage over the Atlas based on the effective engagement envelope of the weapons the DWF can carry, but I've also said that certain maps, as you illustrated, will make a fight favor the Atlas. I've said as much in numerous replies to Gyrok, but he doesn't seem to get it.

Thank you for engaging in a constructive conversation. I appreciate how you broke your arguments down on a map by map basis. You did not make a blanket statement. If more people did that instead of asserting their position with blanket statements and assumed infallibility then things would be better on the forums.

I try. On this issue, most of the things I read from those two, I tend to agree with. Range is an advantage, true. But it's not the be all end all advantage, which was what I got from your posts when you mentioned it (sorry for the misunderstanding if there was any. I didn't read the entire thread. I've seen one dual erppc-guass Dire Wolf, and that was on Alpine earlier today.). As far as which mech is better, I think it's a toss up. I think I'll step out of this thread at this point.

[Roland]

Folks who seem to think that the range of ppcs and Gauss don't matter because every fight happens at close range must not have been playing this game for the past two years.

Regardless, I think some of you are so fearful of them dwolf getting nerfed that you are taking up ridiculous positions, like presenting an lbx atlas build as though it were good.

I mean, there are other assault builds that could perhaps be presented as better than the dwolf giant alpha build.. But an lbx atlas is not one of them.

And some of you are flailing around so much to try and protect your shinies that you can't even acknowledge the obvious truth that being able to nail something with two ppcs and two Gauss is incredibly powerful... And trying to pretend like it's not make you look silly.

Frankly, most dwolves on the field are garbage.. Partially because most of them are mounting terrible builds, but mostly because the vast majority of them are piloted by some of the worst pilots in the game. They are easy to kill because those go is have no idea how to actually leverage what the dwolf does well.. They don't know basic assault maneuvering skills, and their Sim is garbage. In the hands of those guys, basically no mech is dangerous, an a dwolf is actually less dangerous than average.

But when piloted by a good pilot, the dwolf is a beast.. Just because anything that can drop 50 damage on a single location from across the map is a beast, if you can aim.

Not necessarily overpowered, but you doing silly when you try to flail around and act like it's not even that good. It's like Victor Drake when he says clan xl engines aren't even that Good, because no one gets shot in the side torsos.

Edited by Roland, 24 July 2014 - 05:39 PM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Red1769, on 24 July 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

I try. On this issue, most of the things I read from those two, I tend to agree with. Range is an advantage, true. But it's not the be all end all advantage, which was what I got from your posts when you mentioned it (sorry for the misunderstanding if there was any. I didn't read the entire thread. I've seen one dual erppc-guass Dire Wolf, and that was on Alpine earlier today.). As far as which mech is better, I think it's a toss up. I think I'll step out of this thread at this point.

In the context that those two argue, I make the range advantage sound like an end-all because they make end-all assumptions about an Atlas' ability. They just don't like it when I base my position using favorable assumptions that they use for their position, their blanket statement starts to get threadbare.

[Khobai]

The reality is no mech in the game is an even match for a Daishi 1v1, assuming equal pilot skill. A brawling Atlas just shouldnt even try to take on a Daishi alone, it will lose.

However Daishis are especially vulnerable to being attacked both front and back at the same time.

Quote

Advantages of the Atlas:

-Faster
-Better torso twist RANGE
-FASTER torso twist
-More arm mobility
-Faster turning
-ECM
-Unlocked engine size
-Unlocked internals

A lot of false advantages here. The atlas is slightly faster, has better torso twist yaw, and ecm, but thats it.

The Daishi has superior arm mobility. Because nearly ALL its weapons are in its arms. Atlas-D-DC only has 2 energy in its arms. The Daishi can also equip a lower arm actuator on its right arm for limited left/right movement of its arms. Daishi easily wins the arm movement category.

Its possible for the Daishi to have better turning than an Atlas with a 325 engine. Since the 10% turn speed bonus gives the Daishi the equivalent of a 330 engine for turning. The Daishi also gets a 5% torso twist speed bonus giving it the equivalent of a 315 engine for torso twisting, which is not that much slower than an Atlas with a 325 engine.

Unlocked engine size is redundant with the other advantages you listed. Unlocked internals is hardly a downside since the Daishi would never want to take endosteel anyway.

The Atlas is simply not a match for a Daishi 1v1. Period. Banshees are a closer match to the Daishi than the Atlas is, but even Banshees are majorly outclassed.

Edited by Khobai, 24 July 2014 - 06:00 PM.

[Adiuvo]

jaxjace, on 24 July 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

JENNNNERRRRSSS!!!!!!!! the LEG CHOMPERS! A light with max armor, 2 jump jets, max speed over 160 kph and with a 30 pinpoint alpha to boot! if more people ran jenner fs they might see the benefits of it.

A Jenner only goes 152kph.

...but yes lights are nice against Daishis.

Edited by Adiuvo, 24 July 2014 - 05:51 PM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Roland, on 24 July 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Regardless, I think some of you are so fearful of them dwolf getting nerfed that you are taking up ridiculous positions

And some of you are flailing around so much to try and protect your shinies that you can't even acknowledge the obvious truth that being able to nail something with two ppcs and two Gauss is incredibly powerful... And trying to pretend like it's not make you look silly.

But when piloted by a good pilot, the dwolf is a beast.. Just because anything that can drop 50 damage on a single location from across the map is a beast, if you can aim.

Not necessarily overpowered, but you doing silly when you try to flail around and act like it's not even that good. It's like Victor Drake when he says clan xl engines aren't even that Good, because no one gets shot in the side torsos.

I'd like to add on to that if I may. I apologize for quoting myself, but I don't want to type it all out again. It's a common thread I see whenever 2xGauss + 2xER PPC is mentioned.

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 24 July 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

It's the association they're making between the B.S. loadout and the only Mech able to equip that loadout, the DWF. I remember someone posting a build on an IS mech with similar loadout, but I doubt it's as effective as on a DWF with all the extra armor.

The issue is the PP damage with the way convergence works in this game. Throw in the ability to repeat those Alpha Strikes multiple times before shutting down and it's more powerful than anything else in the game.

Instead of addressing the issue, they try and ridicule people by obfuscating the issue and demeaning them with "DWF is OPZ lulz".

What people are really criticizing:
A (loadout) is bullshit and only B (DWF) can use it (paywall/P2W). Just because B can equip A doesn't in and of itself make B an issue. The fact that there is no IS Assault to match it galvanizes this issue even more.

The "DWF is OPZ lulz" people are turning it into:
B (DWF) is bullshit because it can use A (loadout). So, to them, they think all the criticism is on B, when it's really all on A. The only reason B gets discussed is because these people are the ones that bring B into the conversation. They're not addressing the actual valid concern of A.

The conversation should remain solely on A (loadout) and the PP convergence and multiple Alpha Strikes that make A (loadout) a problem.

Keep the discussion on the issue of the game mechanics making the 2xGauss Rifle + 2xER PPC bullshit and keep the DWF out of it.

Edited by Be Rough With Me Plz, 24 July 2014 - 05:59 PM.

[Amardez]

Since the Clan invasion i have been piloting light mainly light and Med Mechs (bar a few rounds in trail mechs that looked interesting), most of the time in a support style light. I don't have any issues with the Dire wolf, if he hits me 2 times with an alpha I should be dead for making a tactical mistake(my logic goes if you make a mistake your enemy will punish you for it, while it is not always true it is the assumption i am working from). The fact that i have speed makes it hard from him to hit me, normally when i dash through a group of enemy mechs I will make the first pass and get away with it and those that alpha are normally taking a snap shot at me so there is as much luck as skill(and yes ping is a factor here too), some hit most miss and a rare few hit their own team.


A light mech can run 2 Clan er ppcs sure they can't also have 2 G-rifles but you can't nerf the guns on the basis of how they are on a single mech. As for balance between light med to heavy and assault one set gets armour the other speed I personally am happy with that if i am "speed tanking" when i get hit is HURTS A LOT but when the atlas strides out it knows it can take a few hit but has to worry about covering its proverbial donkey or it will be as dead as the light that stood still long enough for the Dire Wolf to shoot it twice.

[Roland]

It actually only needs to shoot you once.

[Mcgral18]

Roland, on 24 July 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

It actually only needs to shoot you once.

If both hit a ST, or head. So, you would have to be walking directly towards him, or within 200ish meters for both to hit the same location on a target moving over 100 KPh.

Incredibly painful, but unlikely both will hit a ST on 35 tonners. Cute Foxes are in a similar boat, but the sub 30 tonners are the ones that can be one shot easily. But that's nothing new.

So, 2 shot is more likely. Not much better.