110 replies to this topic

[Bhelogan]

Because if you don't own them, you don't know how their mechanics work and you don't know their weaknesses. It's that fear of the unknown thing. Once there out for C-Bills, all the p2win crowd will be like, 'Oh, it isn't one hit auto win OMG OP No Skillz, like i've been crying for months'.

Nothing else new to see here, move along.

Edited by Bhelogan, 16 July 2014 - 04:36 AM.

[Madw0lf]

Bhelogan, on 16 July 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

Because if you don't own them, you don't know how their mechanics work and you don't know their weaknesses. It's that fear of the unknown thing. Once there out for C-Bills, all the p2win crowd will be like, 'Oh, it isn't one hit auto win OMG OP No Skillz, like i've been crying for months'.

Nothing else new to see here, move along.

Ive noticed, of my three Clan 'Mechs, they tend to be VERY powerful, but very situational. Ie my DWF-B, if IVe got multiple enemies in a kill zone (tunnel) or have the element of surprise, its absolutely devastating. But in the open? Im SOL

[Monkey Lover]

Clan mechs look more op because I think a lot more experienced players bought them. Well other than the timber its op

[Khobai]

The dire wolf is how all 100 ton assaults should be. the problem is the atlas is a terrible mech and always has been. So when people compare the dire wolf to the atlas its not really a fair comparison, because the atlas needs some major buffs.

As for the timberwolf im not so sure its that bad anymore thanks to the jumpjet nerf. Will have to wait and see.

[zhajin]

I finally bought into catapults a few months ago (jester 50% off sale, and then 50% off on cbill chassis how could i resist). then i bought the timberwolf about a month ago. since then i have been running timberwolves exclusively for heavies. the TW trumps the catapults in every way. even as an lrm boat i do better with my TW I have not played jagers much recently but i suspect the same for them. the 3d might still be viable, but overall the TW is the best heavy hands down, which technically makes it OP.

other than the TW i do not see a significant problem with clans, though I also have not run any clan assaults personally, just killed them a lot.

Edited by zhajin, 16 July 2014 - 04:57 AM.

[zhajin]

Khobai, on 16 July 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

The dire wolf is how all 100 ton assaults should be. the problem is the atlas is a terrible mech and always has been.

like most of the original mechs the atlas has been out classed. back in closed beta the atlas ruled, and with the release of ecm ddcs were the most feared mechs on the field. but power creep has left them behind and they have been hit by overall nerfs to movement and weapons. hill climb, LL ghost heat and ac20 nerfs (due to ac40 jaggers) hit them particularly hard. now they are just a few steps above the lowly awesomes and battlemasters....

[Bobzilla]

The Timber is best (or really close to best) of the heavy class. I find the other clan chassis actually lacking other than the stormcrow. We need IS vs Clan 12v12 to happen before any claims can be made about clans overall. One really good mech only makes 1/4 of the team. And with the current mix, you can't customize around the strengths/weaknesses of IS/Clan.

[Mystere]

zhajin, on 16 July 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

... overall the TW is the best heavy hands down, which technically makes it OP. ...

Something being the "best" does not mean it's "overpowered". Otherwise, we will end up with mechs, weapons, and equipment with all the exact same stats, and only being different in terms of visual and sound effects.

Edited by Mystere, 16 July 2014 - 05:16 AM.

[Mystere]

Bobzilla, on 16 July 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

The Timber is best (or really close to best) of the heavy class. I find the other clan chassis actually lacking other than the stormcrow. We need IS vs Clan 12v12 to happen before any claims can be made about clans overall. One really good mech only makes 1/4 of the team. And with the current mix, you can't customize around the strengths/weaknesses of IS/Clan.

Actually, I'd rather take a page from lore and have 2 Clan Stars vs. 3 IS Lances match makeups (or whatever composition is deemed appropriate).

[Votanin FleshRender]

Bobzilla, on 16 July 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

The Timber is best (or really close to best) of the heavy class. I find the other clan chassis actually lacking other than the stormcrow. We need IS vs Clan 12v12 to happen before any claims can be made about clans overall. One really good mech only makes 1/4 of the team. And with the current mix, you can't customize around the strengths/weaknesses of IS/Clan.

I can't remember who it was, but some clan ran 3 12v12 matches amongst themselves of clan vs IS. The IS won all 3, handily I believe. There's a post around somewhere about it.

Edited by Votanin FleshRender, 16 July 2014 - 05:54 AM.

[Devilsfury]

Clan lasers are the biggest factor in why people think the clans are overpowered. They are twice as good as any IS laser, they have WAY better range and weigh less. Nothing like getting hit with clan ML from a distance as long as an IS large. Geting hit from 1600m with a clan erll and there is nothing on IS that can shoot that far. The other issue for most is that every mech in clan mechs is an XL that is exactly like a standard engine. There is no easy, just take a shoulder from that Jager to insta kill it like some great IS mechs.
From my experience, its more of the TW and DW that are considered OP. TW, 89k, and good loadouts. 2 erppc, gause or the hated LURM spam 20s with 4 ml/mpl (see laser range above)
DW: bringing 2 gause, 2 erppc and 6 small lasers to fight. Really? what cant call that OP?? 1-2 any light or medium. kill heavies or assaults in 2-3 shots (if you are running and XL and they shoulder you)
**So, for the reasons above is why some people believe that they are OP. Im just playing Devils advocate.

[Scurry]

Weeellll.....I am waiting for someone to do up hitboxes of all the clan Mechs. Heck, I run a Stormcrow around sometimes and even I'm not too certain which part of the torso is which. I know there's a thread around with half of them, but yeah.

PGI, can we get a Testing Grounds map with Clan mechs to make experimenting easier?

[Bobzilla]

Votanin FleshRender, on 16 July 2014 - 05:54 AM, said:

I can't remember who it was, but some clan ran 3 12v12 matches amongst themselves of clan vs IS. The IS won all 3, handily I believe. There's a post around somewhere about it.

And if this result holds true on a much larger scale, then when CW hits clan mechs will need buffs.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Devilsfury, on 16 July 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Clan lasers are the biggest factor in why people think the clans are overpowered. They are twice as good as any IS laser, they have WAY better range and weigh less. Nothing like getting hit with clan ML from a distance as long as an IS large. Geting hit from 1600m with a clan erll and there is nothing on IS that can shoot that far. The other issue for most is that every mech in clan mechs is an XL that is exactly like a standard engine. There is no easy, just take a shoulder from that Jager to insta kill it like some great IS mechs.
From my experience, its more of the TW and DW that are considered OP. TW, 89k, and good loadouts. 2 erppc, gause or the hated LURM spam 20s with 4 ml/mpl (see laser range above)
DW: bringing 2 gause, 2 erppc and 6 small lasers to fight. Really? what cant call that OP?? 1-2 any light or medium. kill heavies or assaults in 2-3 shots (if you are running and XL and they shoulder you)
**So, for the reasons above is why some people believe that they are OP. Im just playing Devils advocate.

See this whole Clan Lasers are better because the weigh less and have longer range really gets to me because they all ignore all the glaring disadvantages they have.

Range advantage is situational because most fighting takes place at under 500m, ranges where IS Lasers are just as effective. Also Clan lasers have massively long pulse durations typically requiring you to hold the beam on target and steady 30%-60% longer to do the same damage as their IS counterparts. Also this extended beam duration means that IS lasers fire much faster than Clan Lasers giving them a significant DPS advantage. Lastly IS mechs can chose to take standard versions of lasers which have significant heat advantage over Clan Lasers. Sure they are shorter range but within the ranges where these IS standard lasers are effective they have a pretty massive advantage.

So the reality is that in most cases Clan Lasers ARE NOT superior to IS Lasers but just like others are mentioning, if you aren't actually utilizing Clan Lasers in game and are looking at charts and just focusing on the obvious things, then yeah your going to get a false impression about how powerful they are.

Of course this is the type of BS which leads to unneeded nerfs that actually break instead of fix.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Khobai, on 16 July 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

The dire wolf is how all 100 ton assaults should be. the problem is the atlas is a terrible mech and always has been. So when people compare the dire wolf to the atlas its not really a fair comparison, because the atlas needs some major buffs.

As for the timberwolf im not so sure its that bad anymore thanks to the jumpjet nerf. Will have to wait and see.

Up to and including making it the proper scale, instead of making it 3m taller then it should be?

[Roland]

Mystere, on 16 July 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

Something being the "best" does not mean it's "overpowered". Otherwise, we will end up with mechs, weapons, and equipment with all the exact same stats, and only being different in terms of visual and sound effects.

It's bad though when the best of a class is only available for real world currency.

[bluepiglet]

I found it hard to imagine that a sane person would think the current TimberWolf is not broken and being anything else but a giant P2W button for 55 dollars. The thing has JJ, runs faster than any 65 ton IS meches, has more weaponry options. Plus like the other Clan meches, it has a XL engine that does not explode after losing a side torso.

Edited by bluepiglet, 16 July 2014 - 08:32 AM.

[Hobgoblin I]

Viktor Drake, on 16 July 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

See this whole Clan Lasers are better because the weigh less and have longer range really gets to me because they all ignore all the glaring disadvantages they have.

Range advantage is situational because most fighting takes place at under 500m, ranges where IS Lasers are just as effective. Also Clan lasers have massively long pulse durations typically requiring you to hold the beam on target and steady 30%-60% longer to do the same damage as their IS counterparts. Also this extended beam duration means that IS lasers fire much faster than Clan Lasers giving them a significant DPS advantage. Lastly IS mechs can chose to take standard versions of lasers which have significant heat advantage over Clan Lasers. Sure they are shorter range but within the ranges where these IS standard lasers are effective they have a pretty massive advantage.

So the reality is that in most cases Clan Lasers ARE NOT superior to IS Lasers but just like others are mentioning, if you aren't actually utilizing Clan Lasers in game and are looking at charts and just focusing on the obvious things, then yeah your going to get a false impression about how powerful they are.

Of course this is the type of BS which leads to unneeded nerfs that actually break instead of fix.

Viktor, you are just wrong about this.
Clan laser duration is longer, but at any point in time of that duration is has done more damage than its IS counterpart. Take the IS med laser vs the clan er med laser. A 1 sec duration and 5 damage for the IS, and a 1.3 sec 7 damage for the clan. At the IS cutoff of 1 sec, the clan laser has done 5.39 damage. That is a DPS advantage. Also, the range advantage of clan lasers (where damage drops off past 270m for IS and 450m for clans) magnifies the DPS advantage of the clans.
The only heat advantage the IS beams have on clantech is the 1 heat less med laser compared to the clan ER med laser and the .9 heat advantage of the IS med pulse over the clan med pulse...hardly significant, especially if you factor in the smaller clan 2x heat sinks. Clan laser cleary are superior to IS lasers, hell, you should be comparing the clan er med to the IS large laser...2 less damage but 2 less heat, same range and 4 tons lighter...
This is the type of false outrage that people give when they want to avoid nerfs at all costs, but the numbers speak for themselves.

[Ph30nix]

zhajin, on 16 July 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

I finally bought into catapults a few months ago (jester 50% off sale, and then 50% off on cbill chassis how could i resist). then i bought the timberwolf about a month ago. since then i have been running timberwolves exclusively for heavies. the TW trumps the catapults in every way. even as an lrm boat i do better with my TW I have not played jagers much recently but i suspect the same for them. the 3d might still be viable, but overall the TW is the best heavy hands down, which technically makes it OP.

other than the TW i do not see a significant problem with clans, though I also have not run any clan assaults personally, just killed them a lot.

well with an additional 15 tons to spend id hope so.....

oh and it has arms DUH

Edited by Ph30nix, 16 July 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Hobgoblin I, on 16 July 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Viktor, you are just wrong about this.
Clan laser duration is longer, but at any point in time of that duration is has done more damage than its IS counterpart. Take the IS med laser vs the clan er med laser. A 1 sec duration and 5 damage for the IS, and a 1.3 sec 7 damage for the clan. At the IS cutoff of 1 sec, the clan laser has done 5.39 damage. That is a DPS advantage. Also, the range advantage of clan lasers (where damage drops off past 270m for IS and 450m for clans) magnifies the DPS advantage of the clans.
The only heat advantage the IS beams have on clantech is the 1 heat less med laser compared to the clan ER med laser and the .9 heat advantage of the IS med pulse over the clan med pulse...hardly significant, especially if you factor in the smaller clan 2x heat sinks. Clan laser cleary are superior to IS lasers, hell, you should be comparing the clan er med to the IS large laser...2 less damage but 2 less heat, same range and 4 tons lighter...
This is the type of false outrage that people give when they want to avoid nerfs at all costs, but the numbers speak for themselves.

However Clan ER LL only does 6.75 damage in that 1 second interval that an IS ER LL will do 9 damage. That is massively significant. Also the IS ER LL will fire 3 times in the same space that the Clan ER LL fires 2 times due to the 0.5 second shorter beam duration. That puts the IS ER LL doing 27 damage over 3 seconds vs the Clan ER LL only doing 22.5, again a very significant dps disadvantage for Clan ER LLs. The factor in how much easier it is to hold and concentrate a 1 second duration than it is to hold a 1.5 second duration and you have even more of a disadvantage for the Clan ER LL.

Then take the Clan LPL with its 1.3 second pulse duration compared to an IS LPL with a 0.6 second plus duration. That is less than half the duration of a Clan LPL which I am sure you going to tell me isn't an advantage for some reason or another.

Then you have have similar issues with the Clan MPL as far as duration is concerned. Oh don't forget that all the clan ACs are burst fire that requires more exposure time when firing as well as having a tendency to spread damage all over the enemy rather than concentrate it. Or Clan LRMs with their streaming effect making them much easier to avoid taking a full spread and extremely vulnerable to AMS defensive fire.

Instead of acknowledging all these disadvantages, your focusing on the ONE Clan weapon that actually IS better and using that ONE WEAPON to uphold how Clan all clan weapons are vastly superior.

Now sure, Clan weapons do have some advantages as well but most of those advantages are either heavily balanced by massive disadvantages and/or are very situation dependent.

Clan weapons, however, are absolutely not OPed and most are in fact are a tad UPed and/or in need of serious tweaking.