481 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

I certainly wouldn't mind some R&R. It adds some depth to the game. Make it opt in for the current PUG game, maybe add better potential income before repairs, compared to the current income. Of course it should be part of Community Warfare.

I've actually been playing some MW2: Mercs lately...and it makes me wish MWO has some similar elements. The game is 18 years old, yet has persistent campaigns which last for multiple missions, with repairing and rearming in-between. If you don't have the ammo or replacement weapon in your inventory during those missions...you don't get to use that weapon since it's either broken or ammo is dry.
One case I can remember was in my Dragon, equipped with an AC20 and a few Med Lasers. Halfway through the first part of the mission, I was kindly informed by Betty "Critical hit; Autocannon destroyed". Still filled with volatile ammo, I pressed the handy Jettison Ammo button to remove these highly explosive rounds from my torso and be able to finish the mission with just the lasers.
The next mission, while I did have replacement ammo, I did not think of getting a replacement Cannon. As such, no more dakka for the Dragon.

I wish MWO had multi-layered matches like that, where there were rounds with refitting in-between. Ammo might be replenished, but not necessarily to 100%, weapons lost would have to be replaced...if a replacement was available. It would add some depth.

For a game that's 18 years old, I was quite impressed with the gameplay and features. I'm pretty sad with MWO by comparison...I wonder how MW4: Mercs will be.

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 July 2014 - 04:19 PM.

[Squally160]

First off, I love the salvage ideas. I think it would be more interesting to find gear from wins and whatnot.

Second R&R should not be in here.

You keep Mentioning WoT and Warthunder as games with R&R working fine, but you forget:

WoT and WT both run on a "tier" system, and each has slowly climbing repair, and rearm costs as you increase in tiers.
How do we implement that here? Sorry, that Atlas you wanted? you have to grind these lights, these mediums, this heavy, then you get that atlas! but not the one you want, got to unlock that after you finish these other 2 atlas.

Second: WoT and WT both have reward systems that well... reward you for more than just damage to enemy players (spotting, ground target destruction, damage to targets you disabled and such) that allow for various playstyles. What do we have? minuscule spot bonus/tag bonus.

Third: They both scale up rewards as you go further into the tiers, either through direct % mods (WT) or bigger rewards vs higher tiers (WoT) (as well as more HP to use to earn credits with). As well, even if you play a great game at high end tiers, you can end up in the red on wins with certain tanks/planes in both games. Do we want that?

You can flavor it all you want and say "They can balance it out!!!!1one" But why? what would it ADD to the game other than another line at the end of a battle log? It doesnt promote tactical play or damage spreading, it promotes "Were losing, hurry and core us before it costs too much" and the like. (Sorry light, i wont body block for you, it will cost me credits!)


R&R doesnt seem to add anything meaningful to pub games.

[R Razor]

I agree with you 1000% Sand, unfortunately the vocal minority will win this one and you won't see R&R any time soon.......the meta folks just aren't willing to accept it and that is who PGI appears to be targeting with this game.

[Sandpit]

Squally160, on 27 July 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

First off, I love the salvage ideas. I think it would be more interesting to find gear from wins and whatnot.

Second R&R should not be in here.

You keep Mentioning WoT and Warthunder as games with R&R working fine, but you forget:

WoT and WT both run on a "tier" system, and each has slowly climbing repair, and rearm costs as you increase in tiers.
How do we implement that here? Sorry, that Atlas you wanted? you have to grind these lights, these mediums, this heavy, then you get that atlas! but not the one you want, got to unlock that after you finish these other 2 atlas.

Second: WoT and WT both have reward systems that well... reward you for more than just damage to enemy players (spotting, ground target destruction, damage to targets you disabled and such) that allow for various playstyles. What do we have? minuscule spot bonus/tag bonus.

Third: They both scale up rewards as you go further into the tiers, either through direct % mods (WT) or bigger rewards vs higher tiers (WoT) (as well as more HP to use to earn credits with). As well, even if you play a great game at high end tiers, you can end up in the red on wins with certain tanks/planes in both games. Do we want that?

You can flavor it all you want and say "They can balance it out!!!!1one" But why? what would it ADD to the game other than another line at the end of a battle log? It doesnt promote tactical play or damage spreading, it promotes "Were losing, hurry and core us before it costs too much" and the like. (Sorry light, i wont body block for you, it will cost me credits!)


R&R doesnt seem to add anything meaningful to pub games.

you have the same tiers here, you just don't have a forced progression through them. Cadet bonus time could be used to explain that as well. Using new player ignorance is a poor excuse (not directed at you personally). It's a poor excuse because it takes all of 30 seconds to explain bigger mech = bigger repair bill sometimes.

I also pointed out ways to handle rewards and mentioned buffing rewards. I also have a thread directly related to what you're talking about. Adding in more rewards for non-combat stuff, similar to what WT does with its teamwork bonuses.

I do, I want there to be consequences. It makes players thing before doing something. Is it better to run an splatcat? Is it better to run a mixed loadout? Is it better to take the bonuses for stock mechs(or trials) so that I can get a bigger bankroll going faster? Do I want to just rush in all rambo style and get shot to bits in the first 30 seconds to farm? It has a lot of ramifications that are "good" in my opinion. I was fine with the old R&R system.

I've already talked about what it would add to the game. In several posts.

Please, everyone stop with the PUB, pug, poor casuals, etc.

This idea is strictly for CW so that's not even an issue.

[Squally160]

Sandpit, on 27 July 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

you have the same tiers here, you just don't have a forced progression through them. Cadet bonus time could be used to explain that as well. Using new player ignorance is a poor excuse (not directed at you personally). It's a poor excuse because it takes all of 30 seconds to explain bigger mech = bigger repair bill sometimes.

I also pointed out ways to handle rewards and mentioned buffing rewards. I also have a thread directly related to what you're talking about. Adding in more rewards for non-combat stuff, similar to what WT does with its teamwork bonuses.

I do, I want there to be consequences. It makes players thing before doing something. Is it better to run an splatcat? Is it better to run a mixed loadout? Is it better to take the bonuses for stock mechs(or trials) so that I can get a bigger bankroll going faster? Do I want to just rush in all rambo style and get shot to bits in the first 30 seconds to farm? It has a lot of ramifications that are "good" in my opinion. I was fine with the old R&R system.

I've already talked about what it would add to the game. In several posts.

Please, everyone stop with the PUB, pug, poor casuals, etc.

This idea is strictly for CW so that's not even an issue.

You didnt state this was for CW first off., just a global change to add it in.

Second, no, we do not have tiers here. Sure, we have ELO brackets but those are not tiers. there is no separation of "Powerful" and "Weak" chassis in the same class, other than players knowledge. You could say "but there are 4 weight groups! thats tiers!" No, it isnt. These classes are still balanced in the tier system by fighting equivalent tiers. in MWO a bad light is just a bad light, it doesnt fight bad assaults only, it fights whatever anyone else brings. Its the same for any class, not just lights though.

As well, these "consequences" you speak of do not add to TEAMPLAY. They add to solo-self service and minimizing personal risk potentially at the expense of the team. That mech about to die you could shield? Why do that, it just costs you money for what gain?

Dont take my responses the wrong way either. I think for organized, competitive play yes we need R&R.

For absolutely anything else, keep it away.

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 27 July 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

no, sorry, you don't have to nerf it to irrelevance.
Warthunder
WoT
***
all use R&R

Those are just off the top of my head so any arguments of "it would hurt the game" really are irrelevant. If other games have this kind of economy and do just fine why would it somehow magically hurt THIS game?


so the games I listed above are "actively damaging" their player populations?

Warthunder and WoT both use a tier system. That way players can drop in lower tier planes or tanks to earn money to repair their top of the line stuff. They are not dropping tier 4 equipment against tier 10.

[Sandpit]

Squally160, on 27 July 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

You didnt state this was for CW first off., just a global change to add it in.

Second, no, we do not have tiers here. Sure, we have ELO brackets but those are not tiers. there is no separation of "Powerful" and "Weak" chassis in the same class, other than players knowledge. You could say "but there are 4 weight groups! thats tiers!" No, it isnt. These classes are still balanced in the tier system by fighting equivalent tiers. in MWO a bad light is just a bad light, it doesnt fight bad assaults only, it fights whatever anyone else brings. Its the same for any class, not just lights though.

As well, these "consequences" you speak of do not add to TEAMPLAY. They add to solo-self service and minimizing personal risk potentially at the expense of the team. That mech about to die you could shield? Why do that, it just costs you money for what gain?

Dont take my responses the wrong way either. I think for organized, competitive play yes we need R&R.

For absolutely anything else, keep it away.

just because you don't progress does not mean there's no tiers. You have lights, mediums, heavies, and assault. There's just no progression to make it to the heavier tiers.

You have the same thing now. As pointed out, there's tons of games that do this and they also run campaigns, and they aren't "punishing" players nor are they unsuccessful. That's my point, it's PROVEN that it can be implemented.

Davers, on 27 July 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

Warthunder and WoT both use a tier system. That way players can drop in lower tier planes or tanks to earn money to repair their top of the line stuff. They are not dropping tier 4 equipment against tier 10.

no they aren't, unless your'e in a squad...
Regardless, we have tiers here as well, we just don't have a level system here. You can start at the top "tier". It's a lot like left for dead. There's not "progression" through the game. You can start at and play through any level from the first to the last at any time. There's just no linear or progressive advancement. You "advance" by saving more cash for bigger mechs. The "tiers" are the costs of mechs

[Squally160]

Sandpit, on 27 July 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

just because you don't progress does not mean there's no tiers. You have lights, mediums, heavies, and assault. There's just no progression to make it to the heavier tiers.

You have the same thing now. As pointed out, there's tons of games that do this and they also run campaigns, and they aren't "punishing" players nor are they unsuccessful. That's my point, it's PROVEN that it can be implemented.


no they aren't, unless your'e in a squad...
Regardless, we have tiers here as well, we just don't have a level system here. You can start at the top "tier". It's a lot like left for dead. There's not "progression" through the game. You can start at and play through any level from the first to the last at any time. There's just no linear or progressive advancement. You "advance" by saving more cash for bigger mechs. The "tiers" are the costs of mechs

Um, because you dont progress infact means, there are no tiers.

There are weight classes, once again, these are not tiers. They are weight classes that work off a rock-paper-scissors principal (Well, that is how its SUPPOSED to work at least).

And Guess what, WT and WoT both have classes as well, AND tiers!

Light, Medium, Heavy, TD, Arty. Not tiers, classes.

Fighter, Heavy Fighter, Interceptor, Ground Attack, Bomber. Not tiers, classes.

Stop trying to define our weight classes as tiers. If you want to do that, make lights fight lights only, meds meds only and so on.

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 27 July 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

just because you don't progress does not mean there's no tiers. You have lights, mediums, heavies, and assault. There's just no progression to make it to the heavier tiers.

You have the same thing now. As pointed out, there's tons of games that do this and they also run campaigns, and they aren't "punishing" players nor are they unsuccessful. That's my point, it's PROVEN that it can be implemented.


no they aren't, unless your'e in a squad...
Regardless, we have tiers here as well, we just don't have a level system here. You can start at the top "tier". It's a lot like left for dead. There's not "progression" through the game. You can start at and play through any level from the first to the last at any time. There's just no linear or progressive advancement. You "advance" by saving more cash for bigger mechs. The "tiers" are the costs of mechs

You know what though? I'm tired of limited options being presented as 'progression'. Not everyone wants to play 'zero to hero'. If a new player wants to pilot the biggest baddest mech he can. That is actually one of the great things about MW:O.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Davers, on 27 July 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

That WAS actually one of the great things about MW.

Fixed that for you.

Unless you specifically what you are doing, it can take a while to turn a mech into an optimized beast. Lights are one of the best examples of this (DHS, Endo, Ferro, and an XL are pretty much required upgrades). The economy penalizes customization and diversity which is one of the things that makes Mechwarrior, Mechwarrior.

Being stuck with a particular chassis until you can grind enough to get that next mech and upgrade it appropriately is one of the downfalls of MWO imo. Ruins the experience that I have had with prior MW releases or games like TF2 where I can switch up classes/roles when I feel the need without any investment. R&R is just further BS to punish players. I get that want for it because of games like MW2 Mercs and campaigns from Tabletop, but without some sort of compensation for it, it would have too much of a negative impact on the game, even in CW (considering we know practically nothing about it, that point is kinda moot).

Now Mcgral's game mode idea would be kinda neat where attrition over the course of a few matches matter, like their proposed dropship mode but better.

Edited by majora incarnate, 27 July 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[Davers]

majora incarnate, on 27 July 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

Fixed that for you.

Unless you specifically what you are doing, it can take a while to turn a mech into an optimized beast. Lights are one of the best examples of this (DHS, Endo, Ferro, and an XL are pretty much required upgrades). The economy penalizes customization and diversity which is one of the things that makes Mechwarrior, Mechwarrior.

Not sure what your point is. Pretty much all mechs require upgrades and time to find an optimized build. But I like the fact that a new player can buy any mech he wants, not be forced to run a Locust until he can save up for a Commando and so on.

[Squally160]

Davers, on 27 July 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

You know what though? I'm tired of limited options being presented as 'progression'. Not everyone wants to play 'zero to hero'. If a new player wants to pilot the biggest baddest mech he can. That is actually one of the great things about MW:O.

I agree, I like this system a lot, just can be brutal for new players is all. (THough, how to fix this without ruining it with some kind of progression, I do not know. )

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 27 July 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

You know what though? I'm tired of limited options being presented as 'progression'. Not everyone wants to play 'zero to hero'. If a new player wants to pilot the biggest baddest mech he can. That is actually one of the great things about MW:O.

I never suggested to change that, that's what others are talking about. So again, there are plenty of examples of how an R&R system works (even in those casual queues), not having tiers here is not a reason this system wouldn't work it's just a difference between these games.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Davers, on 27 July 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Not sure what your point is. Pretty much all mechs require upgrades and time to find an optimized build. But I like the fact that a new player can buy any mech he wants, not be forced to run a Locust until he can save up for a Commando and so on.

A person can buy a mech, but end up disappointed in that very mech and be stuck with it until he has enough to buy a mech plus the mandatory upgrades. It isn't near as free as people think, sure it is better than a tiered system but tiered systems aren't good either if it blocks you out roles as well which is the purpose of weight classes.

Edited by majora incarnate, 27 July 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 27 July 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

I never suggested to change that, that's what others are talking about. So again, there are plenty of examples of how an R&R system works (even in those casual queues), not having tiers here is not a reason this system wouldn't work it's just a difference between these games.

Before we even begin to think of an R&R system we would first need to completely revamp the prices of every item in game. The fact that FF is so much more expensive than Endo, because it is a field upgrade that doesn't require orbital factories, makes zero sense in MW:O.

And you still haven't answered the question: What are we actually trying to limit with R&R?

[Squally160]

Sandpit, on 27 July 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

I never suggested to change that, that's what others are talking about. So again, there are plenty of examples of how an R&R system works (even in those casual queues), not having tiers here is not a reason this system wouldn't work it's just a difference between these games.

You are ignoring a major part of the R&R system of the other games though, rewards scale and change based on the tiers you are playing. High end tiers ARE NOT PROFITABLE.

So, if repairs are based on tons and equipment, do we force every person to have a jenner w/ a standard and a small laser to grind credits on?

Davers, on 27 July 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

And you still haven't answered the question: What are we actually trying to limit with R&R?

I think he just wants it because it was in other games.

[Davers]

majora incarnate, on 27 July 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

A person can buy a mech, but end up disappointed in that very mech and be stuck with it until he has enough to buy a mech plus the mandatory upgrades. It isn't near as free as people think, sure it is better than a tiered system but tiered systems aren't good either if it blocks you out roles as well.

You should always read up on a mech before you buy it, and use a site like http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab to plan your build, or just post builds and talk to people about them.

It would be nice if everyone could run whatever they wanted, in a world without the need for Cbills.

[Squally160]

Davers, on 27 July 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

You should always read up on a mech before you buy it, and use a site like http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab to plan your build, or just post builds and talk to people about them.

It would be nice if everyone could run whatever they wanted, in a world without the need for Cbills.

I need that on a shirt.


But, problem is that people shouldnt have to read up and dig through posts about each chassis. A better lab/info ingame would go a long way in assisting people in picking first mechs better. But that is not what this is post is about.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Davers, on 27 July 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

You should always read up on a mech before you buy it, and use a site like http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab to plan your build, or just post builds and talk to people about them.

It would be nice if everyone could run whatever they wanted, in a world without the need for Cbills.

Love the straw man there.

TF2 keeps people buying stuff despite being able to play all roles for free. There are ways to do this within the current system but PGI sees how much money they make now and will never change it, not to mention the possible legal ramifications.

As for planning before you buying, people especially if new aren't aware of half of these resources or fall into a category where they have one game that works for them and believe that something is actually good when in reality it is subpar. All in all, this game is terrible at giving USEFUL information but incredibly good at giving worthless information.

Edited by majora incarnate, 27 July 2014 - 06:32 PM.

[Davers]

Davers, on 27 July 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

It would be nice if everyone could run whatever they wanted, in a world without the need for Cbills.

majora incarnate, on 27 July 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

Love the straw man there.

TF2 keeps people buying stuff despite being able to play all roles for free.

LOL How is it a straw man when you say the exact thing?

Now I am not sure exactly what bone you are picking here with me. Sandpit would like a system that forces people to make a 'progression', such as being forced to play Light mechs before you can play Medium mechs etc. He wants Repair and Rearm reintroduced so players will lose money by using expensive equipment and/or heavier mechs.

I have taken the stand that players should be able to play what they want, and that R&R only hurts new players and creates a P2W environment.

You changed my quote, and then took offence to what YOU changed it to. I never said MW. I said MW:O (MechWarrior Online), the game we are currently playing. The system of buying mechs has not changed since day one of MW:O. Plus, I am pretty sure that in earlier MW games you had to buy and upgrade mechs using Cbills as well. I could be wrong, maybe you started MW4 in a Dire Wolf, but I doubt it.